304 replies to this topic

[MavRCK]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 18 February 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Curious, were you testing Thuds last night? I was a bit surprised to see you in one (and that open shoulder was far too tempting )

Ya.. nice kill.. you dirty little ...

Heh..

I was going through my builds with some friends from KE / CSJx -- I had also finished leveling all my Thunderbolts for that last module slot.

[Fang01]

Thanks! It was a good end to my night, even for the red assed beat down I caught a few seconds later. lol

[luxebo]

MavRCK, on 18 February 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ranking:

Ember, FS9-K, FS9-S, FS9-A, FS9-H

Tier.... Drum Roll... 1

This is interesting, completely contrary to what Victor Morson suggested. He says Ember is the worst while FS9-S pretty much puts the rest of the lights into Tier 2... Interesting, thanks for the ranking.

[RiotHero]

I didn't read all of the posts in this thread so I'm not sure if it came up or not. I'm wondering about the pug list (I can only speak on pugs), why exactly is the DD above the Firebrand. Also why is the K2 above the Firebrand?

I know everyone goes bonkers for ballistic hardpoints but, there really isn't anything you can do with them in the DD over the jager s. If you do use them all you are either going to have really bad heat issues, ammo, or speed. Unless you use machine guns and I wouldn't want to use a jagermech in machine gun range. The firebrand can use a gauss and 2 PPC in the arms, which is a brutal loadout for a quick peak over a hill and then back behind cover. Or 2xAC5/2XPPC, that is the same damage, weight, and slots as a dual gauss but it never runs out of ammo and it's harder to lose both weapons. I have even found certain autocannon/erll builds to be very effective because you can use the ERLL to track fast moving mechs at a great distance. I think this mech is at least as useful as the DD but, for other reasons and more useful than a K2. I'm new to jagers and just wondering the thought behind it because my firebrand is quickly becoming one of my best overall mechs not just jagers.

If anything I think the firebrand should be with the DD and the K2 below. My K2 has hardly seen any sunlight since I got the firebrand and I've been having way better games in the FB.

[MavRCK]

RiotHero, on 18 February 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I didn't read all of the posts in this thread so I'm not sure if it came up or not. I'm wondering about the pug list (I can only speak on pugs), why exactly is the DD above the Firebrand. Also why is the K2 above the Firebrand?

I know everyone goes bonkers for ballistic hardpoints but, there really isn't anything you can do with them in the DD over the jager s. If you do use them all you are either going to have really bad heat issues, ammo, or speed. Unless you use machine guns and I wouldn't want to use a jagermech in machine gun range. The firebrand can use a gauss and 2 PPC in the arms, which is a brutal loadout for a quick peak over a hill and then back behind cover. Or 2xAC5/2XPPC, that is the same damage, weight, and slots as a dual gauss but it never runs out of ammo and it's harder to lose both weapons. I have even found certain autocannon/erll builds to be very effective because you can use the ERLL to track fast moving mechs at a great distance. I think this mech is at least as useful as the DD but, for other reasons and more useful than a K2. I'm new to jagers and just wondering the thought behind it because my firebrand is quickly becoming one of my best overall mechs not just jagers.

If anything I think the firebrand should be with the DD and the K2 below. My K2 has hardly seen any sunlight since I got the firebrand and I've been having way better games in the FB.

Check out my videos for in-depth explanations: all of them are on twitch.tv --- lately I've been able to upload them consistently to youtube as well.. (I'm a noob!)

The difference in Jagers are the number of ballistic hardpoints. The K2's hitbox is better than a Jager.

A huge part of the discussion you miss by not watching the videos is the concept of bad vs bad... Currently, the heavy mechs are in a bad position where the best are amazing (god-like) and the rest are mediocre to bad... so the gap between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is huge.. and the gap between Tier 2 and Tier 3 is tiny...

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 18 February 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

This is interesting, completely contrary to what Victor Morson suggested.

Victor puts a lot more value in non-crit-centric weapons.

[luxebo]

Shar Wolf, on 18 February 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

[/size]
Victor puts a lot more value in non-crit-centric weapons.

True, but he says somehow that tiny bit of slower speed on the FS9-S and somehow mount 2 AMS (not sure how he could fit that), therefore screwing over pretty much all of the Jenners and all of the other Firestarters.

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 18 February 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

FS9-S and somehow mount 2 AMS

Well it does have 2 slots for it, and I managed to fit 2 onto my locust, so.....

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 18 February 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

This is interesting, completely contrary to what Victor Morson suggested. He says Ember is the worst while FS9-S pretty much puts the rest of the lights into Tier 2... Interesting, thanks for the ranking.

I stand by that.

The Ember is the "worst." That said, I think it's still a decent light and by far the best 'mech to use machine guns, without question. You're not sacrificing huge amounts to run the Ember. It's just a bit gimmicky and when push comes to shove, is edged out by it's Firestarter brethren.

The big problem with it is it'll encourage pilots to stay on target instead of dodge to get that DPS, and that will cost them dearly, more than anything.

But the 9S really is awesome.

luxebo, on 18 February 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

True, but he says somehow that tiny bit of slower speed on the FS9-S and somehow mount 2 AMS (not sure how he could fit that), therefore screwing over pretty much all of the Jenners and all of the other Firestarters.

This is my theory craft build I'm going to give a shot when it drops for CB:
Firestarter FS9-S - 2x ML 1x MPL 4x SL - XL 295 (Twin AMS)

The theory is that the small lasers, being arm mounted, will be less of a detrimental loss to the Firestarter if it loses it's arms, maintaining a pretty solid core ML/MPL (esp. after the MPL buff) - it can also fire the smalls near endlessly if it's running toasty.

Now this is hardly the bible on it and again it's a theorycraft weapons loadout. All MPL, different ratios of ML/SL, etc. are almost positively going to come up and some winners will be found - likely more than one.

Still a 28 damage alpha that can be sustained for multiple shots on this thing should be nice. I'm looking forward to trying it.

EDIT: I should note that build is one of the tightest I've ever built; I'd honestly originally preferred 3 ML with no MPL, but you'd be running a ton shy then; with the MPL upgrades, I think it's for the best, though. I like to think of it as running the firepower of a Death's Knell + a Spider on the same 'mech.

Edited by Victor Morson, 18 February 2014 - 09:14 PM.

[luxebo]

Victor Morson, on 18 February 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

I stand by that.

The Ember is the "worst." That said, I think it's still a decent light and by far the best 'mech to use machine guns, without question. You're not sacrificing huge amounts to run the Ember. It's just a bit gimmicky and when push comes to shove, is edged out by it's Firestarter brethren.

The big problem with it is it'll encourage pilots to stay on target instead of dodge to get that DPS, and that will cost them dearly, more than anything.

But the 9S really is awesome.



This is my theory craft build I'm going to give a shot when it drops for CB:
Firestarter FS9-S - 2x ML 1x MPL 4x SL - XL 295 (Twin AMS)

The theory is that the small lasers, being arm mounted, will be less of a detrimental loss to the Firestarter if it loses it's arms, maintaining a pretty solid core ML/MPL (esp. after the MPL buff) - it can also fire the smalls near endlessly if it's running toasty.

Now this is hardly the bible on it and again it's a theorycraft weapons loadout. All MPL, different ratios of ML/SL, etc. are almost positively going to come up and some winners will be found - likely more than one.

Still a 28 damage alpha that can be sustained for multiple shots on this thing should be nice. I'm looking forward to trying it.

EDIT: I should note that build is one of the tightest I've ever built; I'd honestly originally preferred 3 ML with no MPL, but you'd be running a ton shy then; with the MPL upgrades, I think it's for the best, though. I like to think of it as running the firepower of a Death's Knell + a Spider on the same 'mech.

Hmm, interesting. If MPL buff is really that much better, I may want to try that out. LPL has been buffed a ton, but the one thing is the ghost heat limiting it (the connecting ghost heat between all large lasers of the 3 kinds). Besides the Artemis on it (guessing it's a mistake), it sounds pretty solid along with the 2 AMS bonus.

Also wanting to ask on the Shadow Hawk and the upcoming Clan mechs since I saw their new updated 'monthly rewards' and the stats of the Clan mechs. I've already gotten elites on my Shadow Hawks due to the x2 bonus weekend, and my builds are:
SHD-2D2: 2xmed lasers, 3xsrm 6s, 1xsrm 4. This is my SRM boat, grouped two srm 6s and the center srm 6 with srm 4. No Artemis due to head srm. I'm questioning whether I should go Artemis or not, dunno if it's worth the sacrifice of the srm 4 (which would make equal tonnage.) I don't do bad at all.
SHD-2H: 3xmgs, 3xssrms, 1xlarge pulse laser. I think this is a very very solid light hunter, but that's really it. I thought of going triple AC2, but it's heat is ludicrous. I do high amounts of damage, but dunno if I should switch a bit on it.
SHD-5M: 2xer large lasers, 1xultra ac5. Another already told me to do something like a gauss er ppc build or a dual ac5 er ppc build, but I don't know whether to go poptarting or not in such. I do not bad in this loadout, but been told this is somewhat unorthodox.
I just need help with building on the Shadow Hawks, not sure exactly what to do.

So on to the Clan mech topic. I don't know about the competitive scene, but I think that a lot of the variants will die quickly, especially with some variants with very few hardpoints, or if more, very limited or energy based hardpoints, which means ghost heat. Most of the core mechs themselves sound like they are not gonna be solid.
Kit Fox Prime: 2E 1M 1B
Adder Prime: 3E
Nova Prime: 12E
Stormcrow Prime: 5E
Summoner Prime: 1E 1M 1B
Timber Wolf Prime: 5 or 6E? 1 or 2B? 2M (typo or something in the page)
Warhawk Prime: 4E 1M
Dire Wolf Prime: 8E 2B 1M
So, not sure how they will fare.

[IraqiWalker]

The hard points will not be an issue for clan mechs. You can swap out any module for another that has the hardpoints you want. Do you want an all ballistic Timberwolf? Done, would you like one that is just Energy zappiness, done. You don't need to play the stock set up on them. Just switch out the modules and Go to town on people. I maybe wrong on this, but I think it is possible to have a Timberwolf variant with 8 Ballistic slots in it. Although that was all theory crafting, and I'm not sure if the numbers are still the same now or will be at time of release in June.

[luxebo]

IraqiWalker, on 18 February 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

The hard points will not be an issue for clan mechs. You can swap out any module for another that has the hardpoints you want. Do you want an all ballistic Timberwolf? Done, would you like one that is just Energy zappiness, done. You don't need to play the stock set up on them. Just switch out the modules and Go to town on people. I maybe wrong on this, but I think it is possible to have a Timberwolf variant with 8 Ballistic slots in it. Although that was all theory crafting, and I'm not sure if the numbers are still the same now or will be at time of release in June.

True. The hard points of other clan variants (or even the variants themselves) have not been revealed, it's still too early to judge. But these stats and hardpoints worry me quite a bit, as some of the Primes have only 3 hardpoints max... which is bad. I'll have to see on what kind of omnipoint arms/torsos can be placed upon each mech, and then we'll see what happens to Clans.

[IraqiWalker]

I would love it if the variants had different legs, then we'd get to also swap those around for fun and mess with the look of the mech a bit.

That probably won't happen. However, for now we do know the stock loadout of the prime variant for each mech, so we can at least judge those. So far only the Summoner and the Adder primes have 3 hardpoints. Which means that if you want to run them stock, you want to be as long range as possible. As their set up will allow you to cram DHS in there until you pop. They will be cool running forever, but they won't have the firepower to be front-liners.

I'm assuming for now (THIS IS ALL ASSUMPTION) that the variants will probably have equal number of hardpoints, just different variety. Although I would love it if the variants actually had completely different hardpoint numbers from the primes.

[MavRCK]

Wow - some good points here.

1) The firestarters are all strong. I tried 3MPLs vs 5ML +1 extra DHS and imo the the 5ML+1DHS is more consistent although my stats show similar damage -- I leveled both mechs to elite using art strike + coolant flush. It's a subjective review and truthfully it's hard to say for certain the ML is better. The damage done is almost identical and I have similar KDRs but my win:loss is ~1 for one and ~2 for the other mech. Strange. I think the variability is purely luck of team drops -- it's hard to carry the whole game in the firestarter.

I think the MPL needs 10% less heat, 10-15% more range...

The LPL needs a lot more range like 20% and 10% less heat.. maybe a damage boost to make it the best brawling weapon out there?

(If that happens the LL needs a 0.5 heat reduction.)

Also, my Ember blows these stats out of the water and I think i can carry in the Ember.. (Sorry! not trying to be a nay-sayer Vic! <3 ) it's just that I can crit hunt and finish a mech quicker and get out faster than my pure laserboat firestarters. Maybe it's my style of play?

Very curious about the 3-4 ML + xSL variants.. the 5ML is hot and often I can't maintain DPS! Post your results pls!

2) Love the Shadowhawk esp the 3AC2, but I focus on the 1-2PPC + 1-2AC5 for consistent dmg.. the AC5 constant dps is just sooooo good! I like the 3AC2 when I good support -- like a mini Jager and I think it's really strong.

I hate streak hawks in a light or when heavily damaged in any mech but I dislike having to wait til the end of the game to do significant damage ... I try to carry from start to death --- i'm pretty aggressive and like my teammates to be so too!

Support your teammates guys! I see mostly a camp and wait mentality and it's a shame.. it's a bad by-product of the PPC / Snipe meta... make a line.. roll forward and crush the enemy team.. brawling works.. and assaults lead the way!

3) Clan mechs -- man I want to support PGI and spend the money.. I can afford it.. but it's going to be summer!!... and I really don't know which mechs I want... I think really just the Daishi and Summoner... so i'm going to wait.. if the pre-order deals were better for the $120 pack I'd reconsider.

Hope you guys are having fun.. I'm definitely a bit burned out and need to take a break!

Love this discussion - so much good stuff here for people.

Edited by MavRCK, 24 February 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Been running the Firestarter K with 6-7 MLs (tried SPLs and while fun, the speed made me get out of range too quickly sometimes) been averaging 400+ damage with it. The 6ML build seems to be my choice right now. Even without elite bonuses on it, it's pretty manageable.

FS9-K Config 1 has all 6 in the arms, left mouse button is left arm and right mouse button is right arm, everything is on chain fire. great for shooting around corners and terrain with minimal to no retaliation. Can alpha 3 times before shutting down.

FS9-K Config 2 has 4 in the arms 2 in the CT. The damage is reduced a bit (2MLs can't always be used due to CT location) however I remain more useful to the team after losing both arms, instead of being an arm-less, weapon-less mech running around like a lunatic.

NOTE: all the builds are being done with max armor 3-5 JJs, and max engine. However, what I am noting is that switching to an XL 280 is very feasible and will not hurt the FS9's survival rate in my opinion.

My Ember is still the best of the bunch because of the crit hunting potential, and the ability to finish off powerful mechs that have only been hit in one location very quickly. I've used it with arty/air strikes, Cap Accel (for assault) and even ERML module in there for testing purposes (the extra damage at over 300 meters is quite nice actually, but the heat can be a deterrent).

All in all, they are solid mechs, I still need more experimentation with the others before I post anything about them.

[Bront]

MavRCK, on 18 February 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Update on Firestarters:

Ranking:

Ember, FS9-K, FS9-S, FS9-A, FS9-H

Tier.... Drum Roll... 1

Having not piloted the S, A, or K yet...

I've found the K is fun, and feels like it should be the best of the standard variants, but I've had more kill success with the H using 2x2MLs in the arms, and 2SLP and 2 MGs in the Torso. It runs fairly cool with an XL280 and 13HS (and I don't have Elites yet), and the MG/SPL fire (I put them on the same button) seems to wreck things once they're open).

That doesn't mean your ranking is wrong (I could debate the S and A placement, and I think the H should outperform the A), but the end result is that they're on enough of an equal footing that there isn't a huge difference among them outside of perhaps the Ember (Which might be even better at doing what I described with the H), and even then, your playstyle will punctuate which one works best for you more than which chassis is "best" (Which is something you do advocate and is
already a part of the list, that similarly tiered mechs could be better or worse for you depending on your playstyle.

[Bront]

MavRCK, on 24 February 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Wow - some good points here.

1) The firestarters are all strong. I tried 3MPLs vs 5ML +1 extra DHS and imo the the 5ML+1DHS is more consistent although my stats show similar damage -- I leveled both mechs to elite using art strike + coolant flush. It's a subjective review and truthfully it's hard to say for certain the ML is better. The damage done is almost identical and I have similar KDRs but my win:loss is ~1 for one and ~2 for the other mech. Strange. I think the variability is purely luck of team drops -- it's hard to carry the whole game in the firestarter.

XL295 or XL280? If 295, try some 280 builds and see if the extra tonnage helps a bit, as you're not giving up a lot of speed.

[giganova]

The dogmatism is strong in this thread.

[JimEvolved]

So I am almost done getting what I want as far as skills from my first set of MWO mechs, Hunchies. Gonna get mastery on the 4h, that's probably the last thing then most on to my next chassis.

I see on the initial post that the first heavy mech listed for PUGs is the CTF-3D. Unlike the Hunchies where there is a very cool "Ultimate" guide on the medium mech forum, I'm having a little more trouble finding some comprehensive recommendations on the CTF series.

Is that recommendation still pretty current in the meta? Can someone maybe just give a sentence or two on why the CTF-3D is pretty good? Thanks much in advance for any information.

[IraqiWalker]

Yes that is still correct. The CTF-3D is one of the more solid heavies. The hardpoint locations and types allow for sustained fire with little to no heat issues. The jumpjets also allow it to fit nicely into the current meta with sniping out the wazoo.

In my personal opinion (and I am a man who does not enjoy people preaching meta this, and meta that, all that often) the Cataphract Chassis is one of the better skirmishers and brawlers out there for it's tonnage. The Ilya is a good hero mech I would recommend you purchase, if you ever decide to get a hero mech.

The Ballistic/energy mix allows you to dish out damage at all ranges, and makes the 3D very versatile, if you want to be a long range sniper, done. Close Range Brawler, easy. The Cataphract can tank a lot of hits and the low arms are going to be used better in brawling that poptarting. However, it is a solid poptart as well.