1978 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

Oh sweet two-class player base. Finally you are announced!

You know it is a quandary. You want money (and lots of money) for clan stuff and you don´t want an arms race. Tell you what, you can´t have both. If it is going to be only a small advantage you have with clan tech, players will stll jump at it. If you ask for hundreds of $ you better make the clan Mechs better, if only slightly. => Arms race.

FYI I am going to troll and teamkill the hell out of any gold Mech I see. Do with my account as you wish.

[Mead]

Shadowdragonne, on 18 December 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Greetings!

First off:
Since the books never really get into how the Clan tech is better other than game stats, having Clan ER lasers have longer beam durations seems to be a reasonable excuse for why they are more powerful and have longer ranges or whatnot.

Sure they do. The Clans are the descendents of the Inner Sphere Star League armies that left the IS in disgust over the insanity and psychotic leadership that led to the Succession Wars. Clan Tech comes from exactly the same origin as IS Tech. It's better because the Clans never lost the ability to manufacture it, and they continued the research & development of it, unlike the IS.

Edited by Mead, 18 December 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[D Sync]

Molossian Dog, on 18 December 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Oh sweet two-class player base. Finally you are announced!

You know it is a quandary. You want money (and lots of money) for clan stuff and you don´t want an arms race. Tell you what, you can´t have both. If it is going to be only a small advantage you have with clan tech, players will stll jump at it. If you ask for hundreds of $ you better make the clan Mechs better, if only slightly. => Arms race.

FYI I am going to troll and teamkill the hell out of any gold Mech I see. Do with my account as you wish.

At this point the "clan" mechs have no advantage (IS is superior given the proposed nerf). Save your money for a vacation, you will need it.

[Molossian Dog]

They will have an advantage. In fact they must. First, the lore requires it. Second, otherwise people won´t buy it. It is simple as that.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 18 December 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[D Sync]

Molossian Dog, on 18 December 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

They will have an advantage. In fact they must. Otherwise people won´t buy it. It is simple as that.

They have no advantage. They are being nerfed.

[ssm]

Molossian Dog, on 18 December 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

They will have an advantage. In fact they must. First, the lore requires it. Second, otherwise people won´t buy it. It is simple as that.

People bought Phoenix mechs regardless of potential advantages/disadvantages they offered, so that's moot.

As of Lore - I'd rather have them balanced (well, nerfed really) than game-breaking, because other ideas range from naive (balance by drop numbers/BV) all the way to plain silly (Zellbringen)

Edited by ssm, 18 December 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[Snoopy]

From my personal point of view: It looks more like you want to implement a system with minimal development time/cost for PGI, nothing else.


Have you even considered what an alpha-strike 6x Medium, 130+ kmh Jenner would do to any Clan Standard armour Mech?

I looks like you did not even consider the option of having numerical difference (regarding total number of Mechs) per side.
12xIS – vs - 12xClan is not the key for success, it is the problem.

Why not 12xIS – vs - 10xClan or even less?
Why not give the Clan side the option to use “10 Mechs or less …” and each Mech less give the Clan players +3% EXP and C-Bills?
Why do not make the Clan the feared, small number, high-tech enemy?

Tonnage limits is the best way to break everything regarding IS-vs-Clan, but tonnage limit is something you belief will work and therefore it can’t be changed. All you suggest is just a fast change in the weapon table for weight, heat, range … but not one single new or even unique feature.

No change in queues, no new features, no unique in-battle Clan only flavour, no new Clan pre-fight lobby. Just the current existing 12-Mech – vs- 12-Mech queue. Otherwise the complete nonsense of changing every single Clan-tech item would not be needed.


Don’t you see that this (your approach to change every Clan-tech item) is proving that tonnage limits will not work and only bring the need for more changes, more need to rebalance, more fix, more buffs, more nerf on everything else?

If Clan–tech is not just a 100% copy of IS-tech you can’t balance a 75t IS Mech against a 75t Clan Mech without comparing the components of each Mech.

Which gives you the following options:

• Make every single item the same, no difference between IS / Clan weight, range, heat, space … (IMHO boring)
  
• Make Clan-tech only a little bit better (Clan-tech will be still better, no real fair fight possible ever, the need to change every single stat)
  
• Give each item a value that represent its combat capability (e.g. Battle Value, option to use different Mech numbers per side)

Not only do you change the lore and feeling to fight as a Clan warrior (Clans fighting with less forces, always try to use the minimal number of Mechs needed to win to show their superiority), you also bring yourself in the situation of having to change and rebalance every single item. IMHO something that I do not believe can be done by PGI.

What you are suggesting is changing MWO to not be BT / TT / MW anymore, it will be PGI-stompy-robot-arena-shooter with Mech-skin.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Individually Clan Weapons should be very similar to IS weapons, the concern will come with how the Pods will end up working (And I'd love to see more weapon variety).

So, there's gotta be some combo of Pods and Hardpoints limits that will come with Clan Omni's.

I figure it might be possible to restrict Pods so there are different categories based on where they fit for each chassis, so that would at least be four separate Pod categories for arms and side torsos (Head and Center Torso could also be more categories).

Another restriction that could be explored is having a max hardpoint limit added together from the pods, so that a build cannot exceed a certain total count for that chassis.

So for example, if an Omni has a limit of say 6 hardpoints total, and say there is an available Right Arm pod that has two hardpoints, then there are only four available hardpoints for mounting other pods onto the mech.

Then with a limited selection of Pods to choose from across the different categories it maybe possible to keep the Omni's balanced enough in relation to IS mechs.

I have a copy of an upgrade 3050 Technical Readout and put together these tables as to how hardpoints would look if the devs stayed to the stock configurations. The devs can add extra hardpoints where necessary to boost any of the pods, for which ever Configurations get used, to make the hardpoints per configuration more equal if necessary.

Masakari

Spoiler

Mad Cat

Spoiler

Ryoken

Spoiler

Puma

Spoiler

Daishi

Spoiler

Thor

Spoiler

Black HawK

Spoiler

Uller

Spoiler

[D Sync]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

People bought Phoenix mechs regardless of potential advantages/disadvantages they offered, so that's moot.

As of Lore - I'd rather have them balanced (well, nerfed really) than game-breaking, because other ideas range from naive (balance by drop numbers/BV) all the way to plain silly (Zellbringen)

You can't break what has worked for nearly 30 years.

Don't reinvent the wheel.

[Snoopy]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

As of Lore - I'd rather have them balanced (well, nerfed really) than game-breaking, because other ideas range from naive (balance by drop numbers/BV) all the way to plain silly (Zellbringen)

Thanks for you constructive feedback. But I have some questions ....

So you want a new IS faction with name "Clans", no different gameplay/game mode?

Can you please explain why BV would be naive and not contribute to balance?

Can you please explain why different drop numbers would not enrich the game modes and gameplay?

Can you please explain why you believe a PGI balance attempt by changing every single given stat is better than using a already existing method?

IMHO most people (including me) bought the Phoenix pack because of the unseen and the hope of more coming.

[D Sync]

If you drop you will have this possible outcome:

Fewer clan mechs vs. a greater number of IS mechs

Same number of clan mechs vs. clan mechs

Same number of IS mechs vs. IS mechs


Remember, you can install clan tech into IS mechs.



EDIT: Clans would NEVER drop with IS, except Ghost Bear and FRR.

Edited by SuperUser013, 18 December 2013 - 04:13 AM.

[Rides a white horse]

One thing that needs to be fixed is the price.... I know I don't want {Scrap} loads of mechs I have to spend a year getting up to scratch, I sure as the sky is blue don't want to give you guys $240 for something you've neutered. It should be somewhat of an arms race. Perhaps if there were a redesign of the way matches are setup ie king of the hill, base defence, regicide and the like. I know it would make the game more interesting if one on every 20 matches you were in limo running from mechs.

Another element that isn't in the game is turrets, they really made the commander games harder.
Some food for thought, standard combat trials to see who uses clannish tactics?

[ssm]

Snoopy, on 18 December 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Thanks for you constructive feedback. But I have some questions ....

So you want a new IS faction with name "Clans", no different gameplay/game mode?

Can you please explain why BV would be naive and not contribute to balance?

Can you please explain why different drop numbers would not enrich the game modes and gameplay?

Can you please explain why you believe a PGI balance attempt by changing every single given stat is better than using a already existing method?

IMHO most people (including me) bought the Phoenix pack because of the unseen and the hope of more coming.

This horse has been beaten to death already.

BV - impossible to calculate properly due to mech customisation and divergence in effectiveness depending on map, other team members etc.

(Wasn't a problem in MW:LL, because it's devs played around with loadouts as the liked & didn't implement customistaion at all)


Drop numbers - Most of the people (casuals, not lore-botherers, gamers-rather-than-BT-fans, Clanners) will just go over to the Clans - simply because being individually superior & fighting with more of weaker enemies gives better gaming experience than being cannon (or maybe in this case, canon) fodder. Remaining IS-loyalists won't be enough to populate more number-dependent IS queue.

Entire premise of CW - dead.


As of PGI's attempt - their approach of giving Clans different flavor & different optimal fighting tactic at least could succed. Other MW games weren't balanced at all in this instance - but they didn't have to be, being mainly SP games.

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

You can't break what has worked for nearly 30 years.
Don't reinvent the wheel.

Worked in TT. It isn't TT. Simple as that.

[D Sync]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Worked in TT. It isn't TT. Simple as that.

You can't break was has worked for nearly 30 years.

Don't reinvent the wheel.

Implement targeting computers, you can't cheat if the game decides where the weapons hit.

[DonBennos]

I´m not satisified with the evolution of this game anymore.

Not at all.

And I will save myself time to explain or point on major issues because enough others already did here and the last months.

The only thing I will mention is that you lost the primary reason to love games:

KEEP IT SIMPLE...

Make me smile again by being able to fire 6 large lasers at once without commiting suicide...

I don´t wanna care about ghostheat ****... if my mech is designed to carry 9 med laser, I want to fire 9 med laser in combat... etc. etc. etc.

New players will never ever last long on all this complicated and selfcreated mess.

Clan Tech is superiour and if you change it dramatically it woun´t be anymore. A SSRM6 has to fire 6 missles at once, because its no SSRM6 otherwise. Simple. Plain. Logic.

I see myself to ferquently reading specs, weapon changes and all fun pinpoint equipments "nerfed". I see MWO players in need of a suma *** laude exam for this game or just doing noobinsh moderate nonsense because not knowing what others know.

I formyself watch this game on its way to hell... and it makes me cry in and outside. So much potential, so much lore, so much great ways to create something unique.

And what we have is 2 modes not knowing if we drop on a ultra hot or frezzy icy map. Its just a random generator of luck or unluck.

Maybe think about stopping farting out new mechs for insane prices and first make a game everybody is able to play, understand and enjoy.

Everybody should have been able to see what Cryengine is capable of... but when I watch MWO its only a shadow of other titles (yes SC primary). SC also shows what people are ready to spend if the concept is good and the player influence the game like they want it to be.

Just my 2 cents...

With a working base system for sure new players will be attracted and old players will be motivated to spend some more coins.

What I do every day is log in... make quick fights with my upgraded fun mechs.... dakka dakka pew pew pew... and then it becomes boring... while realizing the same fun I can have with Moorhuhn or House of the Dead Overkill ^^ ha ha ha...



Could you please... PLEASE think again which direction this game will point and if we all wanna have it go in this direction?

Thank you for all your work and sprit... we really appreciate that, but something goes terribly wrong... and maybe its not too late to turn back to the roots. Make it epic again!

Edited by DonBennos, 18 December 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[1Sascha]

Just re-read the original post this is based on, and would like to make a suggestion regarding balancing. Wall of Text ahead... sorry bout that..

This whole Clan vs IS dilemma reminds me of games I've played in the past and their problem with balancing. Namely WW2 MMO-flightsims. I mean, an early Zero, Spit I or 109 E-4 are pretty damn good by 1939/1940 standards, but by 1943 they start to show their age (and were obsolete or replaced by improved versions in RL at that point anyway).

In the olden days, arena style-gameplay would see all planes in the set active. Meaning you could fly your puny 109 E-4 and run into late-war stuff like P-51Ds or even Me 262 jets. To make things more realistic, to let each plane shine for a period of time and to give players something to look forward to, one game I played introduced what they called a "rolling plane set". Meaning that they adapted a timeline for their game that would determine what planes would be available on what week of the month and what planes would be phased out by then (they would be taken off the spawn-list at that point).

Why not try something similar with MWO?

Divide the stable of Mechs into different eras. Either according to lore or to their actual usefulness/effectiveness in-game. The stats to judge this are generated by the game anyway, right?. Then only pit stuff against one-another that belongs in the same era or "effectiveness-class".

The Clans would be "late-war"-Tech of course, since the invasion didn't happen until, errr, 3055? or so. That way, you wouldn't have to nerf the Clans quite as much, since we should still have stuff like weight-limits or "ghost-weight" to offset their superiority. And by Ghost-weight I mean that each Clan-ton would count X% more towards your group's total allowed weight in a match. Meaning an Atlas would still be counted as a 100-tonner by the system, but a Dire Wolf would be counted as 110, 120, 130 tons or however many it takes to balance things out a bit.


I think I'm repeating somebody else's suggestion now, but WTH?

I'd love to see at least three eras for us to play:

Ca. 3025 (only basic weapons, chassis' and equipment allowed.. no DHS for example)

Post Helm-memory-core: More modern IS equipment and chassis' allowed

Clan Invasion: Only the most modern IS equipment/Mechs allowed vs not-quite-so-severly-nerfed Clan-Tech.


The thing is that the Clans are Über by definition. If you strip them of their superiority, what's the point in having them?
To use yet another WW2-analogy: If a tank-sim introduced a Tiger, but swapped its 88mm out for a 37mm pea-shooter, what would be the point of having a Tiger in the game in the first place?

Especially since Clan-Mechs will be much more expensive than IS-stuff both in C-Bills and in MC/pre-order $$$s. So (IMO) the nerfs should come from tweaking/balancing aspects of the game and not by nerfing their weapons or limit their customization.


S.

Edited by 1Sascha, 18 December 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Just bring them into this game guys. And please don't limit so much of their technology. They are the Clans and they should stay this way, because if you adapt them too much they won't be something special anymore!

[ssm]

Snoopy, on 18 December 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

From my personal point of view: It looks more like you want to implement a system with minimal development time/cost for PGI, nothing else.


Have you even considered what an alpha-strike 6x Medium, 130+ kmh Jenner would do to any Clan Standard armour Mech?

I looks like you did not even consider the option of having numerical difference (regarding total number of Mechs) per side.
12xIS – vs - 12xClan is not the key for success, it is the problem.

Why not 12xIS – vs - 10xClan or even less?
Why not give the Clan side the option to use “10 Mechs or less …” and each Mech less give the Clan players +3% EXP and C-Bills?
Why do not make the Clan the feared, small number, high-tech enemy?

Tonnage limits is the best way to break everything regarding IS-vs-Clan, but tonnage limit is something you belief will work and therefore it can’t be changed. All you suggest is just a fast change in the weapon table for weight, heat, range … but not one single new or even unique feature.

No change in queues, no new features, no unique in-battle Clan only flavour, no new Clan pre-fight lobby. Just the current existing 12-Mech – vs- 12-Mech queue. Otherwise the complete nonsense of changing every single Clan-tech item would not be needed.


Don’t you see that this (your approach to change every Clan-tech item) is proving that tonnage limits will not work and only bring the need for more changes, more need to rebalance, more fix, more buffs, more nerf on everything else?

If Clan–tech is not just a 100% copy of IS-tech you can’t balance a 75t IS Mech against a 75t Clan Mech without comparing the components of each Mech.

Which gives you the following options:

• Make every single item the same, no difference between IS / Clan weight, range, heat, space … (IMHO boring)
  
• Make Clan-tech only a little bit better (Clan-tech will be still better, no real fair fight possible ever, the need to change every single stat)
  
• Give each item a value that represent its combat capability (e.g. Battle Value, option to use different Mech numbers per side)

Not only do you change the lore and feeling to fight as a Clan warrior (Clans fighting with less forces, always try to use the minimal number of Mechs needed to win to show their superiority), you also bring yourself in the situation of having to change and rebalance every single item. IMHO something that I do not believe can be done by PGI.

What you are suggesting is changing MWO to not be BT / TT / MW anymore, it will be PGI-stompy-robot-arena-shooter with Mech-skin.

1) Balancing by rewards:

Balancing through rewards (your 3% per mech) won't work - enough players don't care about rewards at all to make them meaningful balancig tool. Why would Clan pack buyer bother about whether he'll get 10% more money, If he already has all Clan mechs availble?


2) Balancing by numbers:

Quote

Why do not make the Clan the feared, small number, high-tech enemy?

Because too many players would rather play as feared, small number, high-tech enemy than unfeared, low-tech cannon fodder, up to the point of completely invalidating upcoming major features like CW.

I hope that you understand that CW will work only if number of players in IS/Clan factions will be at least comparable.


3) PGI's proposal:

I don't think they'll gonna touch tonnage/crits and risking breaking canon builds, so that's already enormous advantage. So even if they bring every single weapon to IS level we'd still need other balancing measures.

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

You can't break was has worked for nearly 30 years.

Don't reinvent the wheel.

Implement targeting computers, you can't cheat if the game decides where the weapons hit.

I have even better idea - why not just implement two giant on-screen rolling dice and call it a day?

[Salacious Sparrow]

Couldn't we balance it by making lobbies specific to IS and CT? so an IS lobby gets up to 12, and CT gets a max of like 6-8.

dont change the tech, change the lobbies?

[D Sync]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

I have even better idea - why not just implement two giant on-screen rolling dice and call it a day?

Is that in the canon?