1978 replies to this topic

[Kanis Maximus]

Taemien, on 18 December 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

Except that.. clanners aren't any better and many people chose clan over the years to cover their rear against IS opponents.

Look at this thread. Its evidence enough that the clan fanbois want superior tech just so they can rolfstomp anyone who doesn't choose clan tech. They don't want balance, they want weapons and mechs that can clean house. Now they are crying because their toys aren't what they always were.

Its why many of them didn't touch MWLL. Over there the Gauss Rifle was balanced between the two factions. Clan did slightly more damage per shot, but the IS one did slightly more DPS over time. Now we're seeing similar balance designs coming here.

I know many clanners out there aren't part of the clan fanboi bandwagon, and to them I am grateful. They are the few that make for good opponents. But you other scrubs that are complaining that your {Scrap} isn't OP are giving your peers a bad name. Do as they do, man up and show us how good you really are with what you are being given.

When the IS pushes back to the Pentagon Worlds, we'd at least like SOME competition when we get there.

False. I'm an Inner Sphere guy myself, love to fight against those clanners out there with all their superior tech BUT using dirty tactics and SUPERIOR NUMBERS to even the odds.

Clans should be OP, but the matches must be something on the lines of 5 vs 8 or 10 vs 16.
You know, for clans to fight the IS they use to bid who brings the lower number of forces to the battlefield, the one that brings the fewer Mechs wins that bid and fights the IS!!! Easy stuff to implement... oh wait, it's PGI we are talking about, no easy feat there

Give us the Clans as they should be or don't give us the clans at all!!!!

[Dymitry]

I just realized that actually having stronger clan tech and less clan mechs in battles vs IS (as the BT universe would) would mean overall less mechs around, meaning less Clan mechs sold, meaning less $$$t for IGP. What they lack in the PR, design and development departments they obviously make up in accountancy. Smart cats are smart

[Hammer Hands]

So my take is we're going to nerf the bejesus of where Clan tech was supposed to be. Put it on 'balance' with IS equipment so everyone will keep using IS tech for the IS fanboys, but we're still going to charge 3 times as much for the clan tech that is now just IS tech with quirks?

N.O.P.E.

[ssm]

Fut, on 18 December 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Hard to argue with this post.
Why isn't PGI using Battle Values for everything?

Because due to customisation and varying combat efectiveness due to different map layout, team composition, changing meta etc. TT BV would be worthless , and new proper one - impossible to calculate "on the fly" in real-time matchmaking.

Edited by ssm, 18 December 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Why Run]

Balance? What the hell is the point of balance. As it stands a good light pilot is going to beat a 100 ton mech 7 of 10 times because lights absorb more damage than they should. It's a feature to "balance the game". This isn't MechWarrior anymore. It's an abomination of everything that came before it.

A 35 ton mech hit by a pair of AC/10s should be struggling to get back on its feet, not dancing all over the battle field with slightly scratched armor because the damage was spread across its entire body. This balance nonsense has already gone too far. Seeing an Atlas on the field is laughable at the present, save for the ECM D-DCs, as they are simply giant sponges. They should inspire fear! Nah, I fear the Jenner most. Not an Atlas.

So now we get some of the most classic clan mechs, and more butchered "balance". I remember quad-mounted PPCs on Nova Cats (I think at one point 5CERPPCs was possible) No one complained about balance. You ran whatever you wanted and blew stuff up. It's been dumbed to hell for the COD generation who wants to go 200 mph and exploit internet latency, and scream when their recon mech gets OHKO by an assault.

No more money from me. Give up this license and let someone else recreate MW4

[Bob Fire]

hi all

normaly clan tech is:
- longer range
- more damage
- less slot
- less tonne
- specific weapons like: CSMRM 40, CSTRK 6, heavy large laser, clan LBX AC20 ......

and IS tech is:
- less heat
- faster realowd time
- less expansive
- specific weapons like: long tom artillery, assault laser, thunderbolt with artemis, plasma cannon, PPC with capacitor, rocket launcher, mini gauss, hyper ac 20, rotary autocannon, ultra ac20, light gauss, heavy gauss.......

each tech as good and bad sides.

<<S>>
Bob Fire

[Asakara]

From the guy that brought you Willing To Pay MC For PGI To Remove My Pants, the ComStar Battle Analysis & Review Simulation (CBARS), and Infantry And Armor Consumables here is:

Asakara's Rough Clan Design For MWO:

Any Clan MechWarrior will quickly tell you they are superior to InnerSphere MechWarrior Freebirths. They may even find it insulting if you suggest they could not easily destroy 2 or more of them.

Clan BattleMechs are also superior to InnerSphere Mechs with lighter equipment, higher damage weapons that run cooler, and longer range.

Finally, one of the biggest surprises for the InnerSphere was the personal powered armored battlesuits called Elementals.

Clan Weapons & Technology
Clan weapons should remain incredibly overpowered like they are in TT. In all ways the should be superior to those of the InnerSphere. Their XL engine continue to work even if a Clan mech loses a side torso. Their double heat sinks only take 2 crits and all sinks, inside the engine and out, provide 2.0 dissipation per second (and increase the shutdown threshold accordingly). In all ways it should be "OP" just like it was designed.

What Is Omni In MWO?
Omni means two things: 1) All hardpoints are universal and can accept any weapon. 2) Clan mechs are not affected by ghost heat at all.

Elementals:
Useage:
Each clan mech carries a point of elementals as a single use consumable who hang on via handholds. Each clan pilot, at any time, can send their elemental point of 5 battlesuits to attack an enemy mech they have in LOS (like firing arty or an airstrike). The elementals will detach and stay as a group as they do 90 meter jumps to the target at around 32 kph.

Elementals In Combat:
They will fire their small lasers, each doing A damage every B seconds at all times they are within effective range. They fire their first SRM salvo using normal SRM2 parameters at 150m. They fire their second SRM salvo when they are at 75m to their target. If they reach 50 meters they will jump and swarm all over the target and each suit will do X damage every Y seconds from their claws and lasers. They will continue to do damage until their target is destroyed. They will stay with that target, even if destroyed for the entire battle, though they will continue to fire their lasers at any enemy within effective range.

Destroying Elementals:
Elementals take 10 damage each (so a single point carried by one clan mech requires 50 damage to destroy). They can be attacked at any time. They can be shot off the clanner mech before they are deployed as well as attacked as they advance. A friendly mech can shoot hostile Elementals swarming an ally, but there is a danger that they will hit their friend instead.

Alternate Elemental Removal Option:
Mechs with hands can attempt to remove Elementals from their mech. This should take a while per Elemental and require the mech to remain still and not fire any weapons as they try to grab a battlesuit and crush it in their fist. Mechs that have one hand take twice as long. Mechs with no hands are out of luck and must depend on a friend shooting them off or eventually die.


So all of that is incredibly OP for the Clans. All of this is tempered by the following:

Drop Setup:
Clanners drop as a star of 5 mechs vs an IS company of 12 mechs, but the clanners also get a star of elementals free (5 units each consisting of 5 battlesuits) each battle.


My $0.02.

[BigMooingCow]

Fut, on 18 December 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Hard to argue with this post.
Why isn't PGI using Battle Values for everything?

Because their game doesn't resemble TT BT. A few examples:

The value of a ton of ammo is vastly different. One ton of LRM5 or AC2 ammo will NOT last an engagement, for example.

Piercing weapons like the gauss and ERPPC are much less fearsome when they can't pierce. Headshots are not auto-crits, and even 35 ton mechs can stand up to a gauss in the chest with no ill effects.

Heat sinks are much less valuable in MWO than TT. Ever try to use a stock Awesome? It's a worthless mech in MWO.

Pinpoint weapons like lasers have a huge accuracy benefit compared to leading weapons like AC's thanks to the fact that we can aim with our mice.

So, BV will not apply to MWO because MWO is not Battletech. A similar system could be created, and if MWO didn't have all its silly mechanics (ghost heat and double armor and such) it could be very close to BV. But we can't just go look at Sarna for MWO info.

[Mead]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Because due to customisation and varying combat efectiveness due to different map layout, team composition, changing meta etc. TT BV would be worthless , and new proper one - impossible to calculate "on the fly" in real-time matchmaking.

I'm honestly not entirely sure what you think BV is.

BV is a straightforward sum-of-components and the TT version has never taken external factors like team composition, map layout, or meta-anything into consideration. Mech customisation is a transparent part of BV. Go look at the Heavy Metal Pro mechlab, every component swap automatically recalculates a mech's BV.

It's straight A+B+C and a better *starting point* for MWO balance than anything else suggested so far. No system will be perfect, and BV does not and was not built to account for every possible game variable, but it's a better place to start than just hip-thrusting random factors like weapon tonnage.

Each mech, when built, has its BV calculated, and until some part of its configuration changes, that's it. Things like numerical advantage and nonstandard pilot skill can change the final BV comparison for matches, but that's not an arcane thing to figure. And we already have something akin to pilot skill in ELO.

[Mead]

BigMooingCow, on 18 December 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Because their game doesn't resemble TT BT. A few examples:

The value of a ton of ammo is vastly different. One ton of LRM5 or AC2 ammo will NOT last an engagement, for example.

Piercing weapons like the gauss and ERPPC are much less fearsome when they can't pierce. Headshots are not auto-crits, and even 35 ton mechs can stand up to a gauss in the chest with no ill effects.

Heat sinks are much less valuable in MWO than TT. Ever try to use a stock Awesome? It's a worthless mech in MWO.

Pinpoint weapons like lasers have a huge accuracy benefit compared to leading weapons like AC's thanks to the fact that we can aim with our mice.

So, BV will not apply to MWO because MWO is not Battletech. A similar system could be created, and if MWO didn't have all its silly mechanics (ghost heat and double armor and such) it could be very close to BV. But we can't just go look at Sarna for MWO info.

A similar system, correct. What's laughable is people dismissing the concept out of hand.

And yes, MWO is still functionally Battletech even though some of the combat mechanics have changed. It will be until the core concepts and mechanics and features and designs and weapons and lore are changed, which isn't going to take long at this rate.

If y'all want a completely different game, just say so. But don't get pissed when Battletech fans make suggestions concerning a Battletech game that involves using time-tested Battletech features.

[PraetorGix]

Thx for the info. I accept most of what I read, except mentions to more ghost heat, and even making Clan tech hotter in some cases? That breaks off from lore completely and I would much rather have other factors like cooldown cycles tweaked. Just, please stop messing with ghost heat.

[Snitchkilla]

so just got done looking at the 3050 technical read out and guess what all omni mechs have fixed engines, armor and crits for endo/ferro and fixed amount of pod space. that is strait cannon . that is exactly how omnimechs were made so if you are all QQ about these facts the you either A. broke the rules when you played table top B. dont understand that most mech warrior games before missed the mark on how to customize clam omni mech. or C.you are a NOOB and have no real clue what you are talking about . i love how the cries of dont nerf the clans become dont make then 95% cannon either over night ,now all you clanner "my power is over 9000" types will have to pilot omni mech the way they were intended! the way Jordan Wisemen(and if you dont know who that is then you must part of the "C" group) meant them to be played! HA HA careful what you ask for... they way omni mechs were made is well know and the reasons for fixed components? that is one of the ways how they balanced them in table top (that and tonnage limits,more QQ to follow) so enough already buy em or dont. same for the gold mechs, dont like it? dont buy it! and please if you dont want to play this game for what ever reason then dont please leave ... soon !some of the silent minority are sick of all the consumer entitlement and endless QQ and rage on here .maybe if the pgi crew were not continually insulted over every game change they make they might stop to listen to your suggestions but frankly if i was them after some of the ways you people talk about them on here i would take your 2 cents toss it out a moving car ,no one wants to be talked to or about the way some of you talk about pgi employees and you and wonder why you are ignored ?

Edited by Snitchkilla, 18 December 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[Shadowdragonne]

Mead, on 18 December 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Sure they do. The Clans are the descendents of the Inner Sphere Star League armies that left the IS in disgust over the insanity and psychotic leadership that led to the Succession Wars. Clan Tech comes from exactly the same origin as IS Tech. It's better because the Clans never lost the ability to manufacture it, and they continued the research & development of it, unlike the IS.

I am talking about the mechanics, not the history. What technical changes were made to improve the weapon? The books do not say. Therefore, as Clan pilots are so skilled, an extended beam duration for lasers makes sense, as how long a laser hits its target contributes to how mch damage it does. A 10MW laser hitting a target for 5ms should do around the same amount of damage as a 5MW laser on target for 10ms, everything else being equal.

Also, someone stated that 10 vs 12 was silly or somethign like that (don't have time to look up the exact post). I say to you sir, read your BT again. No Clan commander would drop a cluster just to deal with a freebirth IS company. Clans are organized in Stars of FIVE (5) points. IS is organized into Lances of FOUR (4) squads/mechs. Therefore, at most, a commander would drop two (2) stars (10 mechs) to deal with a company (12 mechs) of Elite IS troops. Regulars or green units would likely get their a$$ handed to them from just one (1) star and maybe a point or two of elementals. At least in the beginning of the invasion.

I would caution all as to what beyond the mechanics of the game you consider. The novel story franchise was, like all spinoff series, written by a variety of authors with little oversight other than the overall arc/concepts. The exact capabilities of items in the stories were defined by what character in the story was using them. For example, the climactic battle in one of the Gray Death series, Grayson is riding a {parent of the MAD Cat and not the Cat part} with its head split open ready to eject the pilot. And firing PPCs. And being shot at. And not being fried by radiation/heat or shredded by shrapnel. While taking hits that miraculously missed the completely open center torso/head. (we shall simply ignore how he managed to stop the ejection process at the halfway point). The point is, It was that way because the author decided it was possible to do and authors of fiction frequently have no concept of how things work in reality.

Dont go there - BT rocks!

just keep to cannon, and stick to the mechanics is my opinion.

PGI may or may not read this thread, but seriously folks, unless you want this and other threads to just be places where people vent their spleen and get completely ignored, quit bitching with every single post. And seriously, if you have such a bone to pick, send emails directly to PGI. I get the impression, and this is over years on a varaiety of forums, that "feedback" threads are read for the first two pages, if at all, by the designers and after that its just "more of the same" and the good ideas later posted never get seen. As the man said: "stay on target".

constructive criticism, ok.
suggestions for improvements. ok.
statements of displeasure, if on topic, ok
vitriolic "gimmie what i want or i won't play no more" rants? not so ok and really kinda boring.

Rambling again so bye!

Shadowdragonne

[Snitchkilla]

BigMooingCow, on 18 December 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Piercing weapons like the gauss and ERPPC are much less fearsome when they can't pierce. Headshots are not auto-crits, and even 35 ton mechs can stand up to a gauss in the chest with no ill effects.

lol in TT a guass rifle is not an auto crit to the head ...IT TAKES IT CLEAN OFF !!!!!!! (same goes for the clan erppc)only 15 points of armor in any mechs head 12 on the out side 3 on the inside so yeah get your facts stait

Edited by Snitchkilla, 18 December 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Toothman]

Looks ok on paper. Its the translation into reality that scares me. I had hoped that the "TT screamers" would have left by now. Having a game where all shooting is random and everything freezes for seconds at a time so that it feels like we are rolling dice and playing on paper has always irritated me a great deal. Anyone who wants TT should shut down their computer and go dig out their boxes so that they can play TT. TT doesn't translate into video games. I do sort of wish the devs would reset everything to TT values for a couple weeks so certain people would quit drooling on the floor and become constructive members.

[Mezlabor]

None of the proposed changes would entice me to use anythign other then a clan mech. Clans would still be op. I know the purists won't like it but the tt rules on this need to be thrown away.

Either make clan tech just better and let IS chassis' equip them differianting clan and is by the way hard points are handled (movable hardpoints on clan with static armor and egines vs static hardpoints with changeble armor and engine on I.S) Or throw the whole clan tech system away and start from scratch. The proposed numbers are in still insane and grossly overpowered.

Balancing it out through the match making system with battle values isn;t going to work. People like me with no care about the lore or the background are going to use the best there is and that will be clan. Trying to balance based on battle values will just lead to a lot of clanners fighting a handful of IS, cause trust me not many will drop in an IS mech when the Clan's so grossly overpower them.

[Kyrdak666]

it's funny to see people stating that pgi is broke and just pushing for money, now being broke, lmao i laugh at that, they are run by a higher company called igp, THEY HAVE MONEY. they dont need yours, mine or the other guys. this is all a ploy to get more money because there greed is growing faster than there game. they constantly say one thing and do another. the devs come out and tell us, the players, that we are stupid and wrong for our opinions... these guys DO NOT CARE ABOUT PLAYERS. period. all they want is more and more money and if you'd rather leave than pay them, im sure they are saying good riddence. too bad it's just come to saying that to 85% of the player base. Proud member of N.O.P.E.

[BigMooingCow]

Mead, on 18 December 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

A similar system, correct. What's laughable is people dismissing the concept out of hand.

And yes, MWO is still functionally Battletech even though some of the combat mechanics have changed. It will be until the core concepts and mechanics and features and designs and weapons and lore are changed, which isn't going to take long at this rate.

If y'all want a completely different game, just say so. But don't get pissed when Battletech fans make suggestions concerning a Battletech game that involves using time-tested Battletech features.

Indeed. BV has done as decent a job as one could expect of making Clan vs IS play feasible in BT. Balancing from the bottom up (weapons and engines and such) just makes a bunch of boring same-ish mechs. Balancing from the top down (ie: BV) lets you field weird mechs like the Urbie or Berserker or Omega with some sense of fairness.

To be honest, I'd rather live with the holes in BV than the holes in Paul's attempts to balance MWO's weapons.

Snitchkilla, on 18 December 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

lol in TT a guass rifle is not an auto crit to the head ...IT TAKES IT CLEAN OFF !!!!!!! (same goes for the clan erppc)only 15 points of armor in any mechs head 12 on the out side 3 on the inside so yeah get your facts stait

Durrr... of course it's a one-hit kill. Some brain fade there on my part.

[Dragunz Pryde]

This....THIS just might be the best idea PGI has had yet:
"[color=#959595]With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location."[/color]

This actually made buying the Clan packages VERY viable, why you say...because them you have the utmost customization possible for the mechs. I mean i can just see soooooooo many ways this would work with Clan mechs that it has my head swimming! I cannot wait to see the artwork and versions for each mech....my only complaint so far...."Where is my freakin Vulture/Mad Dog?!?!?" I wants it....I needs it....my precious Vulture A.....

For those complaining about the way they want to implement Clan tech i say this...jump on the bandwagon and play or shut up. Period. This is not the TT game, this is PGI's variant of it. While i do agree with some that the Battle Value could be used it is their choice on weather to peruse it. For those saying keep Clan tech overpowered and make 12 vs. 10 etc matches, this makes no sense, they have to keep the mechs balanced. If you do this the game will forever be in flux, because if the Clanners loose they will complain about how unbalanced it is, if the IS pilots loose then the complaints will be the Clans are too powerful nerf them more. Its a no win situation and they know it. Just let them make their choices on how to keep game play balanced and lets move twords Community Warfare. That is where we all want to be ASAP anyways.

[Mezlabor]

BV makes it too hard for people to play what they want together. What happens when you get 12 guys in a guild who want to drop together and everyone wants to play a clan mech? Then they just can't? Some people are forced to play what they don't want to? BV will work in TT I don't think it will work in a pvp multiplayer game like this.