1978 replies to this topic

[Frost Lord]

Dragunz Pryde, on 18 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

This....THIS just might be the best idea PGI has had yet:
"[color=#959595]With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location."[/color]

This actually made buying the Clan packages VERY viable, why you say...because them you have the utmost customization possible for the mechs. I mean i can just see soooooooo many ways this would work with Clan mechs that it has my head swimming! I cannot wait to see the artwork and versions for each mech....my only complaint so far...."Where is my freakin Vulture/Mad Dog?!?!?" I wants it....I needs it....my precious Vulture A.....

For those complaining about the way they want to implement Clan tech i say this...jump on the bandwagon and play or shut up. Period. This is not the TT game, this is PGI's variant of it. While i do agree with some that the Battle Value could be used it is their choice on weather to peruse it. For those saying keep Clan tech overpowered and make 12 vs. 10 etc matches, this makes no sense, they have to keep the mechs balanced. If you do this the game will forever be in flux, because if the Clanners loose they will complain about how unbalanced it is, if the IS pilots loose then the complaints will be the Clans are too powerful nerf them more. Its a no win situation and they know it. Just let them make their choices on how to keep game play balanced and lets move twords Community Warfare. That is where we all want to be ASAP anyways.

people are going to no mater what they do so you could you could use that conclusion for any idea put out there.

also having clan lances of 5 would be more emersive since that's what clan lances are like.

Edited by Frost Lord, 18 December 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Xeven]

Ultimately all the Mechs were able to fit clan tech and ultimately IS Mechs were able to fit Omni. Why not just do that on introduction of clans and charge us when we want to change hard points. We need more customization options not less. You water down the fun when you do it like your planning too. I would rather just see you skip the technology timeline and let IS mechs use clan tech and Omni slots.

[Ghostrider45]

Balance this is getting to be Bu ll war has nothing to do with Balance it's about beating the other guy with as much force as you can muster the CLAN is the same thing they just try to do it with less troops an mechs for less damge and that means fire power!!!! But a GOOD start would be to get every thing they said they would have up an working first like more than just key bourd an mouse controls!!!!!!

[ssm]

Corwin Vickers, on 18 December 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

I played the Btech 3056 MUSE for years. We didn't have any shortage of Inner Sphere players. I also played the board game, same deal.

Right now assault mechs, on the average, have the advantage despite PGI trying to balance them yet people still play other weight classes.


Some people like a challege or to at least play something different. That won't change.


I like the BV idea and I see two ways it could work, one which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet but will never know because I don't have the time to stay current with the 60 pages this thread has now.

You do a BV value for all the mechs in the queue AND you allow the IS and Clan tech to mix (not clan tech on IS mechs btw, clan mechs with clan tech and IS mechs with IS tech). Team one has 10,000 BV points, team 2 has 10,000 BV points, balanced.

The other way would be to use the number of players to balance IS VS Clan teams. You could actually do different numbers of players depending on what BV values are available in the queue.

If you had 10 light to medium clan mechs you could go for 2 stars vs a 12 man IS team of much higher tonnage but of similar BV.

Or if you had a lot of heavies and assault clan mechs in the queue you could do 5 clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs, again, with similar BV values.

You'd probably want to mix in Elo in there somehow as well.

This also preserves the lance and star unit structure.

I don't like the balancing ideas to make clan tech equivalent to IS tech. We don't have usable SRMs or LRMs after 2 years? BV would be a much easier system to suss out imo

Btech 3056 MUSE, as many other similar project over the years, was targeted at hardcore BT roleplay-ers. For project like MWO, there just aren't enough of those around.

Mixed drops would potentially solve a lot of problems, but it would kill whole "Clan Invasion" (and I don't mean actual event, but locking certian mechs into IS/Clans) premise. I could settle for this, I suppose.

Edited by ssm, 18 December 2013 - 04:22 PM.

[Ogvai Ogvai Helmschrott]

Leave Clan tech alone, It was made to be better than STD tech..Dont ruin the game more than you already have.."Looks at the Ac40 Jeager mech"..and the Ac20 Spider

[Yore]

Well I could have easily seen a way round this. If you didn't just allow people to buy any weapons they want and put them in any slot. Instead mechs should have spaces of x-crit slots and of a type Energy-Ballistic-Missile of that size, albeit clan Ominmechs would have slots that could use anything but only of that slot size keeping it in line with the interchangeable nature of the Omni pods..

Instead of everyone buying whatever weapons they fancy and putting them in, People could be given a choice of weapons as a reward for victories in the field. This would keep check on overpowered builds and be more in keeping with the MechWarrior universe, as weapons were never freely available given that most factories were in the service of the great houses.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

In all honesty I wouldn't change anything with the clan tech. Keep everything original.

With Salvage.. in Mechwarrior 3 we started out with a Bushwacker and went on a mission alone. Met up with other IS mates and salvaged clan weaponry that we swapped with our own weapons 'cause they were better and we captured clan mechs that we could use ourselves.

All this talk about revamping clan weaponry and clan tech is bogus. Just leave it all alone since we can just get clan weaponry that way by buying clan mechs in the shop, stripping the clan tech/weaponry from the mechs and putting it on other mechs.

Unless we want to change how salvage works where the winning team gets copies of what was blown apart from the opposing team instead of just earning the c-bill value of what was salvaged. (Headshots will guarantee you a extremely high chance of earning a copy of the opponent's mech itself unless you don't have any mech bay slots)

But yeah, after reading all the posts about "how unfair it is that clan weaponry/tech/'mechs are so much better than innersphere weaponry/tech/'mechs" it just seems like a giant headache to try and go through revamping and "nerfing" clan {Scrap} so it's more balanced with innersphere {Scrap}. As if it's completely impossible to earn and use it in different ways.

[Kanis Maximus]

Yore, on 18 December 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Well I could have easily seen a way round this. If you didn't just allow people to buy any weapons they want and put them in any slot. Instead mechs should have spaces of x-crit slots and of a type Energy-Ballistic-Missile of that size, albeit clan Ominmechs would have slots that could use anything but only of that slot size keeping it in line with the interchangeable nature of the Omni pods..

Instead of everyone buying whatever weapons they fancy and putting them in, People could be given a choice of weapons as a reward for victories in the field. This would keep check on overpowered builds and be more in keeping with the MechWarrior universe, as weapons were never freely available given that most factories were in the service of the great houses.

Yup, great idea, slot sizes... suggestion present in these forums since closed beta... and always ignored by PGI...

See now piggy? See why it was a good idea? What? Too late now to change the mechlab functionality? oh noes...

[Chentleman]

Thanks for the update!

I like the idea of how the clan lasers are being balanced where they are generally better but harder to use. This same idea can be applied to the other weapon systems such as missiles. The clan LRMs can have a longer lock on time or require the cursor to be precisely aimed on the enemy mech in order for the lock-on to be achieved.

Also for the damage scaling for LRMs within minimum range, I think it would be a good idea that instead of increasing damage with range, that the probability of a missile being armed is increased with range. For example at 90m there is a 50% chance that each missile would explode. The result should be a similar amount of damage as originally proposed except it would look less strange than a huge volley of missiles exploding and doing very little damage at close range.

[Karyuudo]

Some of what I read in the infusion of Clan tech is good. I like the aspect of keeping IS tech legit and competitive. I also like the use of TT limitations on modding Clan Omni chassis.

However, here is my main concern: Talk of nerfing Clan tech weapons in order to close the gap with similar existing IS tech weapons systems. 2 Examples and 2 suggestions I have for the hard-working Dev team to consider:

Case 1: Laser weapons: Instead of nerfing the range of, say, the Clan ER Large, extend the IS ER Large's range slightly. Close the gap that way. I agree in part with the increase of heat from the Clan ER albeit this approach is non-cannon. However I only agree with this approach insofar as Clan Double Heat Sinks turn out being more efficient than their IS counterparts. If IS ER LLAS generates 8.5 heat and do 9 damage, Clan might generate 10 or 11 and do 11 damage. But not 12. That's a bit overkill I think. And whereas IS DHS dissipate heat at 1.4 x normal efficiency, I would expect to see Clan DHS take 2 slots and dissipate 1.67 to 2.0 x normal efficiency. 2.0 would justify having 11 heat for the Clan ER LLAS in my view.

Case 2: Missile systems: I have a huge problem with making Clan SSRMS fire 2 missiles per volley regardless of size. I also find it outright illogical to increase weapon tonnage to counter the shortcomings of similar IS systems. How will a Madcat prime work if that is the case? A 79 ton Madcat? Or a nerfed Madcat with LRM 15s as its prime config. No thank you... May I suggest another approach here: Have IS LRMs increase damage from 0 to full within 180 meters yet be able to hit within that range. Although this is non-cannon it will compensate for letting CLAN LRMs do full damage right from their launchers. As far as SSRMS are concerned, let the Clan systems fire as they should but spike the heat up a bit to compensate and make the pilot more cautious about using these powerful weapons systems.

My point in all this is don't bastardize the mechanics of the Clan weapons to make up for the similar IS weapons.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Dragunz Pryde, on 18 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

This....THIS just might be the best idea PGI has had yet:
"[color=#959595]With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location."[/color]

want two missle hardpoints in that omni arm? TOUGH no variant has it to swap with. very omni this idea, or we ignored the critslot suggestions for hardpoints cause we can't programme it and further to not programming any modifications we're giving you IS hardpoint configs and will take 6 months to enabling you butching some limbs to change the fixed stuff around.

who the hell is going to buy that as omni construction!?

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

As of Lore - I'd rather have them balanced (well, nerfed really) than game-breaking, because other ideas range from naive (balance by drop numbers/BV)

you have proof - video evidence of equal skilled players with wins from a 2vs1 situations? just saying something's wrong without evidence is pretty naive.

because if you do find videos of one person beating 3+ mechs single headedly you better add their loadout to the nerf garbage can. it's done wonders for the game thus far. nothing to do with a good pilot defeating derps nothing at all.

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

I hope that you understand that CW will work only if number of players in IS/Clan factions will be at least comparable.

you're the only person i know who'd design starcraft as

terran - terran 2 terran 3 cause everyone would flock to zerg or protoss if they were feared or superior.
Seriously you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

it's all fallacy in your head and presumptions without any proof.

Snitchkilla, on 18 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

pgi are just following canon stop QQing

well look at MWO, shame they didn't stick to it for IS who can put any weapon on anything if a type of critslot allows it and the heat system is deliberately trashed to force moneysinking customisation so eventually to cut the time earning cbills your wallet's opened.

if anything of this game was "canon" they wouldn't have swapped the stock mechs for champions in the trial mechs selection. we know it PGI know it, the system deliberatly destroys canon mechs cause money's where the customisations at. BTW double armour and triple rate fire is sooooooo battletech

arguing what should be and what shouldn't be MWO accoring to canon is saddly a dead point. hense batchall and zellbrigen have been dropped as well.

1Sascha, on 18 December 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

That wouldn't take different classes of Mechs into account. 6-8 Ullers vs 12 IS heavies/assaults wouldn't be that much fun for the Clanners, I guess.

I agree that they should nerf Clan-tech as little as possible, so it'd have to be limited by weight somehow. Like I suggested in my previous post: Why not make it "ghost weight"? Each clan-ton would count X% more than each IS-ton towards the allowed maximum tonnage your team can field.

Oh, and yes: I'd definitely would want to see Clan-Mechs dropping only with other Clan-mechs. No mixed lances here if the invasion has just begun.



S.

/facepalm

they've mentioned weight balancing which would go with the numbers, the 8 atlas brigades are well and truely over.

and then you suggest ghost tons... you must be joking. new players already miffed on ghost heat and strongest MW BT fans left in disgust, begging for more such arbitary nonsense is just... words fail me.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 18 December 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Taymorr]

Hello, if clan mechs are not allowed 2 heat removal for double heat sinks, they will over heat too much and frustrate players so much they will regret buying them. Clan mechs are ment to be exstremly powerful and few in number against their innsphere counterparts. The battletech board games most recent balancing system fixed a lot of the problems and altering this too much will lead to IS mechs becoming the stronger mech because you can add clan tech to it, change it's engine and armor points. Clan mechs are stuck with the engine and armor they got instead, they have more flexible weapon hardpoints to keep them alive. Also, not having hard points on omni mechs is the whole point so you can play it the way you like as far as weapons go. With hard points, you get a few more weapon options than an IS mech, but the IS mech will win because it can change its engine size and armor points making it a faster and harder to kill target. Please let the omni's be true omni's and have a point value per loadout to balance teams and have a few clanners face many IS mechs, thanks.

[RedPandaPrince]

Being both a Legendary and Overlord Founder, I can honestly say im a little disgusted with what this game has become. Its gone from being about Mechwarrior to being about getting as much money as possible. Its disgusting and the only thing the Devs care about is money. I know for a fact that originally Russ and Bryan wanted to create a great mechwarrior experience, but after a taste of the founders packs, they wanted more, they built hype with false promises, pushed back release dates, and generally let us down with a few new mechs, some maps, but nothing they promised. No UI, no CW, no VOIP, just complete ****, lies upon lies and more lies. Im tired of putting my money into a game that i would really enjoy if they fixed it, but it seems as though i have wasted around 450 dollars. Unless this game gets fixed, PGI/IGP will not be seeing another cent from me, and i would have considered myself one of the most loyal members. Due to spam abuse. This image has been removed. Please provide feedback in written form.

[Smart Bomb]

GalaxyBluestar, on 18 December 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

want two missle hardpoints in that omni arm? TOUGH no variant has it to swap with. very omni this idea, or we ignored the critslot suggestions for hardpoints cause we can't programme it and further to not programming any modifications we're giving you IS hardpoint configs and will take 6 months to enabling you butching some limbs to change the fixed stuff around.

who the hell is going to buy that as omni construction!?

Instead of paying for 3 configurations what about paying for the prime configuration and then sell different hardpoints (or omni pods or whatever they're called) completely separate?

Edited by Smart Bomb, 18 December 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Kuna]

If you are going to charge such extreme costs for Clans then they should function like the clans.. if you have already done your best for the IS to feel like the Is and you have done that well... then the clans should be clans... you can pit 8 clan mechwarrior against 12 IS .. or vice versa..

or heaven forbid initiate an ingame trade network where you need to buy upgrades for example.. IS mechs could fit Clan weapons at a cost if they could find them....

If you take on clans you can salvage some of their tech like other games and their drops...etc....There are some suggestions...

but if anybody is going to pay 240 for a clan mech pack then it should have the advantages as no doubt it would/ should cost lots of CBills to get one..

On another note.. if anybody is paying $500 for a gold mech.. i hope you are sending them a gold miniature in the mail. I'm a founder and overlord purchaser.. i will not be paying that price.. that is too greedy. I finally think this game has pushed too far...You have players here because they like mechwarrior.. not because they have deep pockets.. i think this has now backfired..

[Taemien]

To all of you wishing clan to be 'better'. Why don't you all make them better? Play better than IS players. Why do you have to rely on equipment to beat your foes? Forget the Lore. Put your mech where your mouth is.

Or is making a challenge considered bullying these days?

I guess it would be after the clan units got their tails kicked in MW2-MW4 for over ten years. And they had an advantage back then. This is going to be a massacre this time around.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Smart Bomb, on 18 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Instead of paying for 3 configurations what about paying for the prime configuration and then sell different hardpoints (or omni pods or whatever they're called) completely separate?

sad news.

pgi have totally refused to change their experience system, this involves 3 units unlocking the elite experience capability.

they outright refuse to reprogramme a new leveling system so the easist way to do things is to nerf clans down to IS nerf the omni capabilities to almost IS and keep the IS leveling system and tack clans onto it. with just one addition being to swap around fixed hardpoints and volia pgi's clans done with 1 line of extra code.

minimal viable product -> totally lazy and lacking in imagination -> boring and stale game -> shutdown.

Taemien, on 18 December 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

To all of you wishing clan to be 'better'. Why don't you all make them better? Play better than IS players. Why do you have to rely on equipment to beat your foes? Forget the Lore. Put your mech where your mouth is.

Or is making a challenge considered bullying these days?

I guess it would be after the clan units got their tails kicked in MW2-MW4 for over ten years. And they had an advantage back then. This is going to be a massacre this time around.

plenty of people are skilled enough to beat others when they're out numbered and infact the main suggestion is to force that condition on players right from the begining and it could escalate in the extreme.

16 vs 8 could easily become 10vs4 and then 5vs 1 during the course of a battle, anybody can tell you how this game is played.

deathblobing, focus fire, ganging up win. stick together don't be a loner. we're suggesting clanners should be droped as loners, that's how the game has always worked! i bet many players would migrate from clanners to IS under those conditions because they'd get sick of focus fire and having nobody else to hide behind when the **** starts to fly, that's what many pilots of "skill" do now.

BTW people are surprised about skirmish having hiding trolls in it? the community of players experienced with this game told'em this is what would happen and it happens.

we're telling you now when you're outnumbered the domino effect is huge and wrecks the best pilots and mechs. we know being out numbered and ganged up on is greater than tech only the best pilots-teams overcome this, it's that rare and elo - weight management makes the chances even slimmer if you're down 2+guys. normal clan tech is perfect to even out the odds if a 10vs12 or 8vs16 were in place.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 18 December 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Medicine Man]

Wow. Thank you so much for allowing my voice and feedback to drown in this flood.

I just want to say I am totally underwhelmed. Wow. The clan invasion is here. But no clan mechs are available and no clan equipment is available.

This seems more like a progress report on future updates than anything actually new.

[AngersRage]

As far as balancing drops, why not use the BV system used in tabletop with a few tweaks for weapons that are more or less efective in the real time combat scenario that is MWO. It would work fine for free battles and for clan vs IS just start with 10v12 and adjust that if necessary.

For availibility, have the price be the same rediculous amount it is in tabletop but put a cooldown timer on clan equipment to represent limited availibility (such as every hour x number of units of 6 clan weapons and 2 mechs become available)

And for mech customizarion i also reccomend timers in accordance to the tabletop rules for adjusting a mechs loadout. Switching IS mech weapons should take hours as each one is integrated into the mechs systems, and engines should take longer. Clan mechs should be able to switch out omni-pod (non-integrated) weapons fairly quickly but the mechs with integrated weapons/JJ/DHS and engines should take longer to remove/replace.IMO it makes no sense to make omni mechs less customizable then a standard one.

On a side note i would in favor of putting repair timers on mechs based on how much damage they took in the match, that way if someone made a broken/OP fit they cant use it repeatedly, especially if it got destroyed. (this obviously would not apply to trial mechs)

[Necromantion]

Victor Morson, on 14 December 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Quoting Paul's post.


Except, the ones that you know, weren't.

Most of us played MW4, you know, where Clan tech was VERY much an issue and was heavily focused on multiplayer, even having MULTIPLAYER ONLY expansions.

Living Legends also addressed the Clan vs IS issue with battle value instead of tonnage as a limiting factor, with IS teams running heavier but with less quality gear. You are wrong out of the gate.

Again, this is untrue. The other games have dealt with this as well and IS units were made to be viable through either later day technology in some games, and making IS stuff "cheaper" to field. The fact is if you give Clan and IS tech to the same person, Clan tech is better in EVERY case because you don't understand WHY it is better beyond the surface, Paul.

You can't figure out how to fix the flamer or narc and as I'm about to show, you don't fully understand what makes Clan tech far, far better in the first place. Also "heavy handed, knee jerk" nerfing is the M.O. of PGI. Hello, Ghost Heat.

Let me make a sincere attempt to educate you. Let's do this.



You could, I don't know.. make Clans and IS separate profiles and give the IS a weight advantage in match ups? Or would that be too reasonable for you guys?



OK, so far we're dealing with fact. Let's see where this goes off the rails.



... and we're off! The space & weight reduction is dramatic enough with the Clan technology, if you plan to adhere to TROs yet, you are already talking MASSIVELY overpowered.

I don't care how much you nerf the individual missiles, 5 ton LRM/20s are going to blow your plan sky high.

The beam duration increase is the only smart thing here. MORE HEAT SCALING is not what's needed. Do you know why it's not more needed, Paul?

Your most expensive 'mech is a Masakari. It is known for 4 ER PPCs. Then you punish people for using more than 2. This system has hit Peak Terribleness and we don't need more of it.



More heat scaling (i.e. Ghost Heat that has NO USER INTERFACE ANYWHERE IN THE GAME) is not the answer to balance the Clans, period. You CAN'T balance them if you throw them into a blender with the IS 'mechs and you damn well know that. Everything is too light, too small, any actual damage/range upgrades are just gravy.



We do not need more artificial gun limitations Paul. The second solution of making Streak 4s and 6s have higher recycles is entirely reasonable, but trying to say "You can take all these guns but you can't use them" has to stop.



OK, so now your addressing the earlier point of weight, so what you are saying is you're going to up-ton the stuff in a desperate attempt to make it better. I get it.

It's still a 7 ton LRM/20. That operates like any other LRM/20 but with SOME minimum range and absolutely no other downsides.

That is better, Paul. Flat out better. Not a trade off. Better.



But you JUST BROKE that by changing LRM/20 weights!

Dear Lord I hope the worst is over.



"We don't want Clan mechs to become an arms race."
*gives Clan 'mechs unparallelled flexibility*



While there are some good balance ideas in this section, they would [i]only work if the Clan / IS were separate factions and did not cross tech.

As it stands all you are doing is putting a band-aid over a bullet wound. Clan Tech is flat out better even after your nerfs and just because it's not SUPER SUPER SUPER OP, merely SUPER OP, does not change anything.

Once you release Clantech into the general population you can either convert to all Clan, or be on the losing end, period, the end. It's flat out better and there's no reason not to use it, who cares if it's not as great as it COULD have been?

Couldnt have said it better myself. Perfectly to the point covering all the bases in a constructive (not that these issues and PGI really deserve constructive criticism anymore) manner.