1978 replies to this topic

[All24Cans]

So instead of nerfing the clan tech, you're "sort of" nerfing it, trying to balance clan tech to IS by adjusting for piloting skill, so that people don't get into the clan arms race and abandon IS tech. Ok, I get it.

And then you're going to match games based on piloting skill?

I think it would make more sense to balance the game a different way. Gaming modes with IS vs IS, clan vs clan, and IS vs clan. In IS vs clan, it would be something like 16 vs 8 (2 to 1), in which case the number of IS vs clan balances out the game. That way, the clan tech can remain far superior, as it was meant to be.

A lot of old school players want the "superior" clan tech, not an adjusted version of it. I don't think they would mind paying for it by being outnumbered 2 to 1.

[Taemien]

Whisker, on 21 December 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

A lot of old school players want the "superior" clan tech, not an adjusted version of it. I don't think they would mind paying for it by being outnumbered 2 to 1.

I'm one of the old school players. And in my experience, 2v1 odds, or even 2v3 odds are going to make the majority of Clan users frustrated beyond measure.

You all are acting like every clan player is some sort of god's gift to MechWarrior. They are not. They never have been and never will be. They have good players, mediocre players, and newbies just like IS does currently. Its not a separate player base, its a section of the one we have now.

Yes, a clan premade might win 2v1 odds against a random PUG. But their ELO isn't going to drop them against a random PUG. They are going to get wiped out more often then not. Adjusting drop ELO won't work because it relies on a number of players to launch in a queue at the same time that this game simply cannot support (even 12 million Sub MMOs can't do that).

The only system that has ever made IS vs Clan fair in MechWarrior is a separate but equal situation. MWLL did it, and now MWO will as well.

Player skill varies way too much from game to game to adjust the odds.

[NovaFury]

Everyone and their dog already has a custom-made Comguard ROM SLDF-era tech battlemech tailor made to kill other mechs, and a 1/0 pilot with RPG-booklet targeting skills and the horribly broken Solaris group-fire weapon rules.

Balancing what we already have is more important.

[LexTalionus]

What if instead of tweaking the weapons, make the Clan weapons only for clan mechs, then any time a clan mech is brought to a fight it takes the same as 1.5 players. If two clan mechs are brought you lose one extra team mate, to a certain point anyway, maybe cap it at 7 Clan Mechs vs 12 IS mechs? Weapon tweaking wouldn't be required because there would be fewer mechs on one team compared to the other?

[Taemien]

LexTalionus, on 21 December 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

What if instead of tweaking the weapons, make the Clan weapons only for clan mechs, then any time a clan mech is brought to a fight it takes the same as 1.5 players. If two clan mechs are brought you lose one extra team mate, to a certain point anyway, maybe cap it at 7 Clan Mechs vs 12 IS mechs? Weapon tweaking wouldn't be required because there would be fewer mechs on one team compared to the other?

Then Use IS to just outright win?

Explain to me how 7 Clan mechs given OP tech, would have any chance against 5 more opponents in Assault or Conquest? Conquest they'd be boned, they can't split up and all the IS mechs have to do is avoid them. Assault would force them to not move from their spawn or get capped. And then get picked apart from all sides.

[NovaFury]

They can't, typically. Not at the ranges given in MWO. Clan tech is interesting because it provides advantages in certain areas but not in others. Three things clanners don't get better at.

Speed by engine size, and by extension, speed by weight class.

Max armor amount by weight class.

Heat containment, and ironically by tonnage, sink rate.

Clan armor isn't lighter (Than IS Ferro), nor does it give more points than IS armor. Their XL engines, while 2 slots smaller, go the same speed, and weigh the same. DHS sink two heat for 1 ton like IS DHS, but take one less slot.

Clan advantage is nearly entirely in weapons, mounting, number, weight, damage, and most importantly, range. Because they by degrees have the same heat efficiency as IS mechs, similar speed and often inferior armor, clan mechs engage IS mechs at a disadvantage by one tactic alone, range.

And of course superior pilots but it's mainly range. In TT firing at medium and long range is a to-hit penalty, and clanners have 1 degree better pilots (3/3 vs 4/4) compared to the IS. So their target numbers are often 3 or 4 easier on 2d6 for equivalent weapons than the IS. In short, the clans are OP mainly because they have double the accuracy or better, and some of their weapons are a bit cheesy, or do more damage. (7d ER-Mediums, 15d ER-PPCs)

Since pulse lasers in MWO blow chunks, the most overpowered clan weapon, the Clan large pulse laser will be irrelevant. I'm not worried.

Clan designs tend to be over-gunned and under-sinked and minimally armored in certain cases, which won't work in a game which favors maximum armor, under-armed and over-sinked mechs to account for the ridiculous heat scale.

As for Zell? Several liberal clans, Wolf in particular, are known to sometimes not offer Zell even to other clanners. Expecting them to do it for spheroids is simply ridiculous.

Edited by NovaFury, 22 December 2013 - 12:32 AM.

[Borgadun]

LexTalionus, on 21 December 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

What if instead of tweaking the weapons, make the Clan weapons only for clan mechs, then any time a clan mech is brought to a fight it takes the same as 1.5 players. If two clan mechs are brought you lose one extra team mate, to a certain point anyway, maybe cap it at 7 Clan Mechs vs 12 IS mechs? Weapon tweaking wouldn't be required because there would be fewer mechs on one team compared to the other?

All ideas like this bring me to two questions:

1. What if IS-mechs also get "OP" clantech? Will they count as clan-mech too? What about hybrid-tech-mechs?

2. How do you want to identify those mechs ( with the question in mind from above ) at the drop preperation?



Here is another idea. IF a IS-mech gets clantech, this mech should be locked with its internals, reactor and weapons hardwired instantly with no change to change backward.

[Borgadun]

NovaFury, on 22 December 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

They can't, typically. Not at the ranges given in MWO. Clan tech is interesting because it provides advantages in certain areas but not in others. Three things clanners don't get better at.

Speed by engine size, and by extension, speed by weight class.

Max armor amount by weight class.

Heat containment, and ironically by tonnage, sink rate.

Clan armor isn't lighter (Than IS Ferro), nor does it give more points than IS armor. Their XL engines, while 2 slots smaller, go the same speed, and weigh the same. DHS sink two heat for 1 ton like IS DHS, but take one less slot.

Clan advantage is nearly entirely in weapons, mounting, number, weight, damage, and most importantly, range. Because they by degrees have the same heat efficiency as IS mechs, similar speed and often inferior armor, clan mechs engage IS mechs at a disadvantage by one tactic alone, range.

Clan ferro (1.2 * armor tonnage) provides more protection at slightly less weight compared to IS ferro ( 1.12 * armor tonnage).

NovaFury, on 22 December 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

And of course superior pilots but it's mainly range. In TT firing at medium and long range is a to-hit penalty, and clanners have 1 degree better pilots (3/3 vs 4/4) compared to the IS. So their target numbers are often 3 or 4 easier on 2d6 for equivalent weapons than the IS. In short, the clans are OP mainly because they have double the accuracy or better, and some of their weapons are a bit cheesy, or do more damage. (7d ER-Mediums, 15d ER-PPCs)

We are not playing the TT, so you cloud ignore those values in the future

NovaFury, on 22 December 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

Since pulse lasers in MWO blow chunks, the most overpowered clan weapon, the Clan large pulse laser will be irrelevant. I'm not worried.

Clan designs tend to be over-gunned and under-sinked and minimally armored in certain cases, which won't work in a game which favors maximum armor, under-armed and over-sinked mechs to account for the ridiculous heat scale.

As for Zell? Several liberal clans, Wolf in particular, are known to sometimes not offer Zell even to other clanners. Expecting them to do it for spheroids is simply ridiculous.

Not really true. Most of the Clan-mechs ( in case the front-omnis) are nearly full armored. Certain mechs have a heat-problem like the Nova Prime. You could still remove weapons in the mech-lab and install some more heatsinks.

[nvonop]

I like the thought that is going into the clan tech implementation and the intention to perhaps require greater pilot skill to obtain the clan benefits.

Ultimately though I have been brought up through various MW games to know that the clan tech is simply superior. Make it prohibitively expensive so people are forced to work hard in their race to obtain the best weaponry. I think balancing the weapons through their rarity would be better than messing with the base stats from the TT.

Combine with having clan teams dropping as a binary star and were good to go

[Borgadun]

nvonop, on 22 December 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

I like the thought that is going into the clan tech implementation and the intention to perhaps require greater pilot skill to obtain the clan benefits.

Ultimately though I have been brought up through various MW games to know that the clan tech is simply superior. Make it prohibitively expensive so people are forced to work hard in their race to obtain the best weaponry. I think balancing the weapons through their rarity would be better than messing with the base stats from the TT.

Combine with having clan teams dropping as a binary star and were good to go

Yes, but what is a "Clanteam" ? A team that has just one Mech or is completly Clan?

Will Inner Sphere mechs updated with Clantech count as Clanmechs, or not? What about random matches? How do you want to balance those IS-clantech mechs with Clanners? Most ideas I've seen to this topic are totally nonsence and will break the game totally by unbalancing the teams. So it will be out of nonsence to introduce the clans and make the MM uneven.

And please stop comparing MW:O with the TT


PS:

Light travels faster than sound!

This is why some people appear bright before they speak!

Edited by Borgadun, 22 December 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[NovaFury]

Well since this BBS isn't letting me quote people properly...

#1; Clan Ferro's point-zero-eight weight advantage is immaterial, because Endo-steel is superior in every way for weight savings, and the majority of their mechs favor ferro over endo, squandering this completely insignificant advantage anyway.

#2; Obviously. If you read my post, you'd realize I was giving reason why the clans were considered 'OP', not because I somehow believe they'd have better pilots in MWO. The idea of that post was to point out the IS in MWO is not immediately outclassed to anywhere near the degree people are saying they would be.

#3; Near fully armored or not, they don't get any more armor than their weight class allows. Since they will no doubt be counted more valuable than their tonnage suggests (By BV or handicap or lance size, whatever) their mechs are 'relatively' more fragile.

Go ahead and ignore 'by degrees' and 'in certain cases' if you want.

Edited by NovaFury, 22 December 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[The Meek One]

Clan tech is superior and it should remain so. Make it similar to the history but making one side all clan with less units and the other side IS with more units. Don't limit tonnage, but number of players. Also because Clan mechs fought more one on one, limit the radar to not show other clan players targeted mechs, limit the battlefield page, make teamwork harder to achieve on the clan side. Make it expensive. Make people earn it. A truly skilled player would jump at the chance to face overwhelming odds in better tech. It would give us a chance to work for something to be part of an exclusive club. At the same time, with better numbers and better teamwork, the IS can overcome a clan vs IS fight. That way the weapons are pretty much as they are in Battletech, you just have to work with numbers to see at what number is the fight balanced. The IS side will be scared to split apart knowing there are better outfitted mechs out there and be forced to work together, and the clan side with their better tech will be happy to hunt the IS down, but with limited teamwork capabilities. Good leaders will shine in IS and good players will shine in Clan.

Edited by The Meek One, 22 December 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[Russhuster]

well first if all it will take a long time bevore is mechs are able to carry clan tech at all and there should as described in the original source adapting pods be used that may take some weight / and or slots as house marik was building for davion

first clan tech should be usable in clan mechs onlly and be purchased in the clan courrency honor points it can be the same system as the payment in c-bills but it has another name and other rules so a single duel kill gives more honor than an assisted kill what is not honorable

in the game has not even the starleague core library been found, what would bring the heavy X-pulse laser technology and rotary/chainguns yet.

so in the game the clans hit the inner sphere with more impact

later when is mechs are able to carry clan tech they should be countet by the worth of its inbuilt technology the concept was described earlier on by another writer, and i find that very promising

to the suggestionns of advyntage in the number of mechs, i find that idea as well a possible and ambiente fittung method of ballancing a 8-10 vs 12 relation seems playable but 5-6 to twelve will in games like conquest be complete nonsense leaving absolutely no chance to the clan players

[Grey Knight]

Hm...it might not be the topic but im wondering how some people are arguing!

What kind of game you want to play???

some interesting story based game that keeps you playing for a long term? or just another shooter that wont satisfy you more than blowing up some Torso once or twice a week?

If you want to play an interesting, satisfiyng game you got to be aware that there need to be some interesting content!

That is the point i dont get? Most of you guys are arguing about how the clans should be implemented in the game.
you got to be aware that if the clans are in, there is nothing more to come....according to the BT franchise.
(BT Universe background: several years after clan invasion the BT universe was kind of "reseted" because of OP tech etc)

And yes it is a BT franchise based on the TT, books etc...i got the point that you cant take the original rules a 100% for an online game. (Ultra Ac/20 shouldnt be in this game as an example, or make IS mechs less Omni so clans could easy compete a 5 vs 12 scenario)


So in my opinion, if PGI wants to make an long term interesting game, they should start with lower tech (3025) but implement different content step by step...and FINALLY Clans.

Clans are compared to other games "End content" there wont be much more tech content...so you need some kind of "story/background" to keep this game interesting.
Otherwise non BT Fan players will be bored of the same mechs, same maps etc...and real Bt fans wont be satisfied if they wont get a Bt game.

If you have different opinion about Timesetting...fine to me!

But all of us should be arguing about not implementing clans yet or even in 6 months...first they need to get some real "story/background based" game running for about a season befor they try to implement something "naturally" unbalanced as clans.
Then introduce them on a beta base first to do the fintuning/balancing and evrything would be fine.


So we all should step back and force PGI as their customers to give us an Universe to fight for with more IS Mechs with more restricted variants...so every mech has a certain role to play and not every Mech can do everything.
Thats the way to create real teamwork, tactics and skill you will need vs op Clanmechs later...and not running around with 2x ac20 or other imbalanced builds so Ghost heat wouldnt be necessary.


Damn, i wrote it again...my hopes and dreams!

but according to the PGI Sales strategy (and ego players), there wont be such a game...not even close.
Because they allready know that they are trapped in a one way!
That is why they are selling mechs and stuff in advance...they try to make as much money as possible...

(selling Clan "Omni-Mechs" which are even less Omni than existing Mechs....but change IS Mechs back to no Omni.Mechs when players allready payed real money for them....??? wont happen due to even more whining about even more unbalanced Clans and that ego players cant run their 2xac 20, unbalanced build etc)

Again sry for my English...

[Weagles]

Another feature that would change the dynamics on the battle field.

The Squirrel Scout Recon Locator (SRL)

Module: C2,000,000 each 5000GXP to unlock

This module broadcasts a non coded location beacon signal so that the enemy can see approximately where the mech is. Shows up as a dot on the map. This is a toggle feature so when you wish to get attention you turn it on and turn it off when you don't need it.


Be a good Squirrel and lead the enemy into the trap or away from your force.

Like all Weagles products would love a 1% cut of the Cbills from sales of the SRL to support my XL engine habit.

[Borgadun]

NovaFury, on 22 December 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Well since this BBS isn't letting me quote people properly...

#1; Clan Ferro's point-zero-eight weight advantage is immaterial, because Endo-steel is superior in every way for weight savings, and the majority of their mechs favor ferro over endo, squandering this completely insignificant advantage anyway.

#2; Obviously. If you read my post, you'd realize I was giving reason why the clans were considered 'OP', not because I somehow believe they'd have better pilots in MWO. The idea of that post was to point out the IS in MWO is not immediately outclassed to anywhere near the degree people are saying they would be.

#3; Near fully armored or not, they don't get any more armor than their weight class allows. Since they will no doubt be counted more valuable than their tonnage suggests (By BV or handicap or lance size, whatever) their mechs are 'relatively' more fragile.

Go ahead and ignore 'by degrees' and 'in certain cases' if you want.

#1 True. But still Clan ferro has an slightly advantage as mentioned.

#2 Read more posts where MWO is compared with TT. So, some people may be better, some may be worse with their skills. Please don't compare two different Systems which can't be compared.

#3 Said it. most are fully armored. So why they are 'relatively' more fragile? OK, you can't redistribute the values and armored more in the front than the back.


Why so thuggish on a reply to your post? I hate this way of "non" verbal communication. I ment it kind. maybe I translated some things wrong and misinterpreted at the same time.

[Kilrein]

Thorqemada, on 14 December 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Obviously Clan vs IS is 10vs12 matches, thus the poweradvantage of a Clanmech is 1,2 times an IS-Mech (if you only had to balance pure numbers).

Not even close, using TT values, it's more like 2:1 ratio at 3050 tech. It sounds like it will still be at least 1.5:1 IS:Clan tonnage ratio based upon the weapon nerfs posted. But there is is still the tonnage/bulk issues of engines/ES/FF/etc that may skew that back up.

Remember, most Clan mediums had more usable firepower than IS heavies and some assaults.

[moodswing]

All of your proposed changes are overly complex and trying to balance the IS/Clan technology is a problem of fundamentals. There is a very simple solution to every meta problem MWO has experienced and it's called "an economy". There have been some great suggestions in here, and combined with an economy MWO would function like every other successful game. The reason TT, including Clans, worked is because there was accountability on the player.

1) Bring back repair and increase the costs. A $5M mech has 5 appendages and a head. Lose an arm, $100k repair bill plus what was mounted on it. Lose a CT, $200k plus whatever was in there. Now a match that turns out $100k in earnings won't cover the cost of your recklessness. You'd have to tone down the current model of appendage loss, but a destroyed appendage has a cost, and it should be proportional to the cost of the mech.

2) Bring back reload costs. Ballistics are very powerful. Their downside is supposed to be the ammo. Without a cost associated to fire it, of course the AC20 rules. When that AC20 costs $5k a shot, now you have a game. Still useful but no one is going to boat an AC20 and fire 40 shots a round @ $200K in ammo, at least not for long.

3) Introduce loss & salvage. When you're downed there should be a % chance to lose a weapon to salvage, and gain one as a victor. The salvage concept may be too complex to introduce, but the loss of a weapon hurts, badly. Boating 6 PPCs and losing one on death, +2 more that were destroyed, will make people think twice about their load outs.

4) Profiles and factions. Profiles are a great idea. Do that. You're IS or Clan - nare the two shall meet. Period. Within a side, you have factions. You can join any faction or go merc. Each gets a bonus. Merc's get 100% boots to CBills, you know, cause you get PAID. Factions, they get things like free weapon replacement on loss and repair cost reductions, cheaper energy weapons, cheaper ballistic ammo, etc. You could have levels of bonuses, rewarded for your wins or time for your faction. You can change factions for sure, but it's going to cost 2K MC and you lose your benefits from your tenure in your last faction. There, you make your money, people can change but they aren't going to be FOTM hopping or gaming the system.

A high cost penalty will greatly reduce the erratic gameplay you see today. It won't stop you from doing your own thing but you will see a much more conservative load out practice overall. Clans have their technology boon, as they should, but have economic values that pressure a Clan member to play like a Clan member. You can tie this to warfare, they who control certain areas get boosts. If your faction is attacking a location that has multiple connected regions held by the same enemy, that increases the likelihood the enemy will get in and salvage more from your downed mechs before you get in to pick them up.

Do this and I believe most of your problems in the meta go away simply because they arose from a complete lack of accountability on the players side and will have players grouping better, coordinating better (because there is actual value in coordination beyond a W/L) and feeling like there is something larger at work that just load/stomp/shoot/die/repeat.

[Lygris Targerian]

I'm sorry for being off-topic, but I just can't understand how some members of this community use every feedback-thread to rant about everything the developers did, do or plan to do.

I must admit I couldn't bring myself to read more than the first few pages of this thread because it's so tiresome to read and its basically all the same .
Guys, you disrespect the developers' work, call them liars or worse and presume they will F it up anyway. How can you expect them to take you seriously or value your oppinion?
You say they propably can't get your trust back, even if they do everything you want them to. Then why should they even try?
It's not constructive criticism to tell them again and again that they can't, in your oppion, do anything right.
Don't you realize that you won't achieve anything this way except beeing ignored?

The sad thing is, that the posts containing constructive critisism/ideas/oppinions tend to go under in the sea of pointless rambling.

I wonder if someone from communty managment really does read all the way to this point, on page sixty- something, but i couldn't blame them if not.


That beeing said, I would like to add my thoughts to the clan tech.

I think weapons and equip should have the same weight and crit slots as in BT, so we can have the clan mechs the way the are in BT.
I think balancing can be done by rasing recycle time for the clan weapons and dialing down their damage and range advantage over IS counterparts. DPS could be more or less the same as the IS equivalents.

I also liked the idea for ultra ACs I read in this topic. Make them fire short bursts, with each shell doing a fraction of the nominal damage, over half the recycle time. This way it would be harder to concentrate the damage in one zone.

LRMs without min range seem a big problem.

Streak SRMs could make the life for light mechs hell, maybe larger launchers should get longer lock-on times. Also maybe the range at wich you can lock-on streak SRMs should be limited to the weapon range or double weapon range or something like that.

I think the idea to customize the hardpoints of omni mechs is a cool idea, but the armor value should be variable, because some omnis would certainly be to lightly armored.
The opption to switch engines could be more limited and Structure, armor type and HS technology could be fixed.

Contrary to BT, Omnis with XL engine should be destroyed when losing a side torso, taking up less space than IS versions is enough in my oppion.

[J0anna]

The more I think about it, the more reasons come up with why "interchangeable" parts won't work. For example, I change a right arm in the prime version for the alpha version - problems:

1) The weights between arms often don't match - without the ability to tweak weight, (i.e. add/remove armor/engine/endo/ferro) we'll be very limited to what we can swap out.

2) Almost every clan mech carries 1 ton of ammo per weapon, once again, without the ability to tweak weight, how can we add more ammo?

3) I've mentioned clan light mechs before, but with them limited to 106.9 kph, and both shaving armor from their legs, they are pretty much useless.

All in all, as discussed they are significantly behind there Inner Sphere counterparts.