1978 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

I like the bidding idea. Maybe combine it with a bonus when the person wins the match to encurage him/her further

[Tombstoner]

Concept for balancing clan tech weapon weight and size advantage.


the weight reduction for clan weapons comes at a price in lower hit points.
the size eduction decreases the chance of the equipment being hit and hit points

Readjust the internal system where the item has a % chance of number of crit spaces/12 of being hit and taking damage.

clan equipment is smaller and lighter meaning they adsorb less damage and be hit less often. over all this results in IS mechs having an increased durability that doesn't interact with any TT system. it can let you use clan tech without having to destroy default designs and adsorb some the clan damage advantage.

Basically convert equipment into more internal structure

example

1 IS DHS has a volume of 3 slots and in the RT it would have a change of being hit of 3/12 or 25% chance. if a shot lands a roll is made and if it misses the DHS the damage is applied only to the structure. if it hit the DHS and does 10 damage the DHS would have 30-10=20 hp remaining.

clan DHS has a volume of 1 slot and takes a hit in in the RT the % chance to hit is 1/12. make a roll and it misses damage applied to internals. if it hits the DHS since it has no weight change it should have 30 hp. now this value can be changed arbitrary to further. lets say to 1/3 hp due to the size reduction and clan DHS have 10 hp and a 1/12 change to be hit.

so clan tech functions correctly but has a reduced durability.

Edited by Tombstoner, 20 December 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Unleashed3k]

Taemien, on 19 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

But to reiterate the point. This is MechWarrior Online, and not BattleTech Online. You're most true to lore BattleTech online game is going to be MegaMek. While MechWarrior derives its lore from the BattleTech franchise, it has never been and never will be true to BattleTech.

Uhm CW is what then? The whole promises about CW , Clan Invasion, that is BT history, not only Mechwarrior

[ssm]

Tombstoner, on 20 December 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Concept for balancing clan tech weapon weight and size advantage.


the weight reduction for clan weapons comes at a price in lower hit points.
the size eduction decreases the chance of the equipment being hit and hit points

Making Clan equipment less durable is legit proposal, but compared to advantage gained by less tonnage/criticals is simply insignificant.

Durability of components actually matter in relatively rare situations such as big, chaotic brawls without certain degree of focus fire and thus - a lot of mechs having internals exposed to be wrecked by 4xmg Spider-K.

Edited by ssm, 20 December 2013 - 06:34 AM.

[ssm]

Battlestar3k, on 20 December 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Uhm CW is what then? The whole promises about CW , Clan Invasion, that is BT history, not only Mechwarrior

Thing is, CW will only be successful If PGI finds a way to prevent 75% of playerbase from going over to the Clans. If they introduce them as in Lore/BT history, majority of players will choose Clans, because it's more fun to play high-tech, superior warriors with Mad Cats and Daishis than IS cannon (canon?) fodder.

[SunderMK2]

Hello fellow warriors and PGI, we've got quite a bit of feedback in and there have been a lot of concerns with the design being considered. I have a proposal I think not only eliminates the biggest concerns such as breaking stock builds, losing the tech edge of the clans, but also takes care of balancing teams. Please consider this, tear it apart and help me make it better for I highly believe this system could be implemented within a month if we all put some work into it.
First, let's look at weight. Right now PGI is planning to implement balancing teams based on tonnage. An easy example, let's take a Jenner with a standard engine, a few lasers, standard heat sinks and an SRM. Let's compare it with a Jenner of the same model with an XL engine, double heat sinks and the same weapons load.
On the tonnage system these two mechs are exactly the same despite the fact that one runs faster and overheats less.
This is bad, it puts new players with fewer C-bills at a massive disadvantage. Add in the clans and this gets incredibly broken, on the tonnage system an inner sphere LRM 20 is worth two Clan LRM 20's. Trying to balance them by increasing weight and heat just isn't going to cut it, the Clan LRM 20 either has to be broken so badly as to be unrecognizable or some new way taken into consideration.
Another example of how the tonnage system breaks. If it is ever allowed to mount a clan weapon on an inner sphere chassis
The lesson here, which cannot be stressed highly enough is that in battletech tons are not created equal, and they shouldn't be.
How can we better handle this? That part is easy! Added bonus, it is already built into the game! That's right, we won't need to add a single new value to the game to make a new fair balancing system work!
This value is much too ignored in the game, despite the fact it should be at the very heart and soul of how the inner sphere works. Let us consider the almighty C-bill.
Let us take the two Jenners from earlier, the weights are the same, but the cost in C-bills are dramatically different. So let's ignore the weight! Let's put a C-bill limit on the value of the two teams. All the sudden a very high tech custom Stalker loaded with an XL engine, double heat sinks and lots of lasers costs your team more to field than an old Atlas with a standard engine, a couple autocannons and a couple lasers.
Now let's say we leave official battletech stats for the clan weapons. We may need to adjust heat and reload time values for these weapons before applying an appropriate price tag. All C-bill prices need to reflect on field performance and adjusted as game-play evolves. Then as soon as the team C-bill limit is set at a reasonable amount the teams are suddenly forced into balance, teams forced to trade high tech high expense components for lower items so others can field clan mechs and tech.


New C-Bill based balancing proposal.

The C-bill cost of a chassis and all mounted components should be added together. This of course creates a very large number rather unfriendly to players. Dividing this number by ten thousand will present a friendly easy number to players and the result should always round to the next whole number.

Chassis:
Each chassis needs a C-bill value. This is already in the game for nearly all mechs. Champion mechs are already cared for, only Hero mechs will need a carefully considered value applied.

Engines:
Like all other components, C-bill costs will need some consideration but as values stand they should be a good starting point.

Weapons:
Each weapon needs it's cost reconsidered based upon it's on field performance. Clan weapons can keep their original stats preventing chassis break. Only some tweaks to values like heat, reload time, and duration will be needed.

Consumables: The cost of a consumable should be added to your mechs value. A single mech carrying an air-strike won't drastically change a teams value. All members of a 12 man carrying an air-strike will find they require to re-balance their team to stay within limits.

Armor and structure: While we could attempt to assign a C-bill value per tenth of a ton, this gets messy in a hurry for the purpose of this paper, and the internal space trade-off does not translate well to a C-bill value. For now we can ignore this in our calculation. If the need arises we assign a value per tenth of a ton and add it just like any other mech component.

ECM, BAP, Artemis, other equipment and upgrades: Acts just like a weapon for our purposes, however the C-bill values of these items must be looked over an must be made to reflect their in game performance otherwise they will break balance.

Modules: This is the one time where values as they stand cannot be used in the calculation. However these cannot be ignored as they do affect game balance. Consider two identical Ravens, but one is mastered with all four module slots filled, the other carries none. These are imbalanced, the C-bill value of the modules has to be accounted for somehow. Given modules cost millions of C-bills but add a fraction of the battle performance of weapons and engines, a simple division of the cost can be used. An example, a six million C-bill seismic sensor. Divide the value by five hundred and the result is twelve thousand. Less than the value of a medium laser, but still considerable. Add in the other modules on that Raven and the total value of the mech increases by a not insignificant amount. Balance between the teams will be maintained because in order to field all their modules the higher tech team will be forced to make sacrifices.


An evaluation of two Jenner JR7-F battlemechs

JR7-F 1: Stock build. 35 tons.
Chassis: 2,893,066 C-bills
5 jump-jets class 5: 44,000 each (220,000)
4 Medium Lasers: 80,000 each (320,000)
1 standard heat sink: 4,000 each
Standard 245 engine: 1,502,633

Total tonnage: 35
Total C-bill cost: 4,939,699

Remember, we add all C-bill values with the exception of modules being divided by 500, then divide the total result by 10,000 rounding up to the next whole number

Cost in team balance calculation: 494



JR7-F 2: Customized. New engine, double heat sinks, endo steel, two modules and an air strike.
Chassis: 2,893,066
5 Jump-jets class 5: 44,000 each (220,000)
4 Medium lasers: 80,000 each (320,000)
4 double heat sinks: 12,000 each (48,000)
XL 300 engine: 4,900,000
Capture accelerator: 6,000,000
Advanced zoom: 2,000,000
Air strike: 40,000

Total tonnage: 35
C-bill cost minus modules (includes air-strike): 8,421,066
Total C-Bill cost: 16,421,066
Modified C-bill cost(modules divided by 500): 8,437,066

Remember, we add all C-bill values with the exception of modules being divided by 500, then divide the total result by 10,000 rounding up to the next whole number

Cost in team balance calculation: 844

And the perfect example of why balancing by tonnage is broken. Two even tonnage mechs with vastly different performance qualities. Using this system however the team will use far more of their drop resources to field the higher performing Jenner. A team might well decide to force a few pilots to lower their values so they can have a fast XL-scout, or force their scouts to use standard engines so an Atlas could upgrade to a Boar's head.

Edited by SunderMK2, 20 December 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[The Magus]

I think I've read enough of this, I'll just continue to sit back and face palm every week, month, year?- For the hopes I had in this game just keep decaying. nerfing clan mechs is a joke, all around, making ppl pay for something now is a joke since it will likely not be what was expected whenever we finally get it... (overlord) I'll play when you get dx11, cw, and ui2.0 which... yeah has been "around the corner" every week for 2yrs...

[Johnny Z]

Ignore the trolls

These are great ideas on how to introduce the clan mechs in a balanced way while keeping alot of their original stats.

Using the pilot tree might also be another way to balance the IS and clan mechs.

I am actually surprised at how well this seems to balance the omni mechs, well done.

BTW the new map is great and the music to.

[Karrig Fetladral]

considering team size questions have been stated above...

Inner Sphere 12 (3 lances) vs 10 (2 stars) Clan? ...give way to the need for "superior" tech....not just a balance?
or are clans going to be fighting with 12 as well....

[J0anna]

The inability to change armor values on clan mechs is an extreme handicap, that even having original un-nerfed weapons would hardly make up for. The Thor has about the same amount of armor as a typical Cent, I could live with the other limitations and the nerf to clan weapons, but this is too extreme. I was putting money aside for this, but having nerfed weapons in paper thin mechs is just foolish.

The ironic thing is I remember a PGI quote to the effect: "You would have to be braindead to think we don't want to sell Mad Cats to the players." Well guess what, this nerfed steaming pile isn't a Mad Cat. Perhaps it should be changed to be "You have to be braindead to buy these nerfed clan mechs."

Edited by Moenrg, 20 December 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Bumble Doof]

All I want is an interactive environment. I mean common, the trees don't even poof into dust like they did in Mechwarrior 4, and that was in 2002.

[Scryed]

so wait IS mechs are more OMNI mechs than clan mechs


DA FUQ???!!!

[Oogalook]

Njal, on 14 December 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

One of the things that helped the IS againt the clans was double tonnage and physical attacks which the clanners refused to use. So make a MadCat worth 150tons in matchmaking and allow us to kick it to pieces. In that case i would not care for weapons balancing.

This would be a life-saver to the game. I want to walk up to clan mechs in my Centurion and take their arms off with a two-ton hatchet to even the odds with these potentially game-breaking mechs.

Suppose in Pug matches that Clan mechs could replace the positions of other players on the team. If the Matchmaker, say, found two Timberwolves wanting to drop. It could put them on opposite teams and have tonnage be balanced, but then those players get off scott-free to dominate theat game's standings and ring up all the kills and points. Instead the matchmaker could put them on one side and leave one or two of the twelve Mech slots *empty*, meaning that one team has two mega-mechs but is also outnumbered by two. The tactical disadvantage would require the clan-studded team to work harder for their daily bread, and reduce the degree to which clan pilots would steamroll regulars.

If I have to leave my Hunchie or Atlas behind for clan mechs in order to compare with others in the field, *I will quit this game*. I probably won't be buying any of the Clan packages just out of loyalty to the IS, and because that investment could possibly be rendered hypocritical and ironic when the mechs roll out next year.

Edited by Oogalook, 20 December 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[WarHippy]

Victor Morson, on 20 December 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Basically we want two factions that play entirely differently.. High tech limited units vs low tech lots of units. Instead we're getting butchered but still op clan mechs that remove is mechs from relevance.

Where do you get this "op clan mechs that remove IS mechs from relevance" idea from? From what they have described I would take an IS mech over a clan mech in almost every situation. The only ones that look viable are Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, and maybe the Stormcrow. All of the others are either too slow for their weight, under armored for their weight, or both. The only thing they seem to have going for them is better fitting numbers to work with, and all that really does is allow for maybe more weapons that will be harder to use with the increases in heat all over the place. Of course depending how they do these hard point swappable body parts you might not even be able to add more weapons, or even add the type of weapon you want to a certain spot.

Edited by WarHippy, 20 December 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[WOLFTANK]

So you advertise new Mechs for a ridiculous amount of money, having not yet designed them? UI 2.0 isnt even out yet, Project Phoenix still isn't completely implemented (what with all the missing items and features that no one seems to remember promising), most of the different weapons have major flaws and balance issues, and generally everything is where it should be in a closed beta. Honestly, how long do you guys sit around talking and circle-jerking every day? You are so behind in everything that this game needs to be kept in beta. There is a recurring pattern here, announce something, put minimal effort into it, release it, then when we say "this steak isn't cooked enough," you guys whack off on it, stick it in the microwave, and give it back, hoping we think it is just "special sauce." This game has great potential, but you guys need to learn to work on one thing at a time to fix, you have spread yourselves so thin that this game is lumbering around with a broken leg and no arms, still thinking you own the world. So hats off to you, for watching thousands of people eat your poop and then telling us its homemade chocolate pie.

[Gipsydang3r]

Nope not gonna spend anymore money on this game 250 to 500 dollars on clan mechs lmao NOPE NOPE NOPE!!money hungry idiots it's way overprice durrrrr.............

[cmdr_scotty]

with the way they are nerfing it. IS mechs are going to be better than CLAN mechs...

stick with the fixed engine rating, but allow armor changes, heatsink changes, and other internals.

perhaps still require certain things but not a fixed location (i.e. jumpjets could be moved around as well as heatsinks, but MASC (if we ever get it) is fixed)

[Kraven Kor]

I can see multiple ways to balance clan tech without messing with weight / crits, at the least.

Maybe all / most clan weapons have to lock on and maintain a lock.

Maybe they have a lower ROF.

Maybe less ammo per ton (less waste of resources, and clan warriors "don't miss.")

Maybe up the heat generation, or lower the heat threshhold of clan mechs.

And I think the case can be made to ensure they are "less better" than IS insofar as damage, range, and heat generation than their table-top counterparts. Clan weapons would then only deal, say, 10% more damage and 10% more range with canon builds (tonnage / crits) and more customization options (can't change structure type, engine type/size, or "hard-wired" things; but can change armor amount.) With the balance being, yes they have better damage and range and less weight / crits, but are harder to use, have longer refire delays, and produce more heat with a lower heat threshhold.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Quote

This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

The engine type and rating

Here is a MASSIVE important question: How will clan XL engines be handled given that they are going to be a static part of the mechs?

[kaizersouse]

First these are my opinions and therefore I am not trying to find the solution that would make the largest numbers of players satisfied. I am very much of two minds here. First there is the need to balance game play. On the other hand I have also had the feeling more and more recently that game play is too balanced. This has been especially the case with the release of various new mechs which increasing feel much the same as the old. While there are some nuances new mechs generally feel like old mechs just with different hard points in different places and different look to the chassis. I am beginning to feel that there needs to be a little more imbalance in the game to keep it interesting. Take ECM for example. Some mech's can equip it some can't. This may mean you end up on a team without it and at a disadvantage but you just have to deal with it.The ECM imbalance brings a flavor to the game for good or bad and that helps in a small measure to keep the battles and strategy dynamic. Even without the clan tech believe the game needs more instances such as this otherwise one mech is increasing playing very much like another.

Increasing I have felt wouldn't it be interesting if there was a new type of weapon and that weapon was only available on a certain mech or certain set of mechs. Perhaps that weapon would convey a significant advantage. I thought the Phoenix class would have had this feature.

The Clan tech is a perfect way to introduce elements such as this. Give a clan mech LRM 20's with zero range and half the weight but only allow it on a certain mech. Yes this mech may be quite powerful compared to an IS mech. Just like a leopard tank outclassed a sherman and the only hope was to gang up on the leopard. But the reality of warfare and rarely is it fair or balanced. I have played when lrm's were overbalanced. It was difficult, but you altered your game play to adjust. I found playing against the overbalanced lrm just as much fun as playing against the more balanced lrm's.

I do recognize that some balance will be needed but suggest that perhaps the balance could be found elsewhere. First it might be possible to find the balance in the match-maker. Yes finding balance is match-making is very tough as it is random pool of mechs that are available and there may not be enough of one class to help balance out a match. However one option would be that if there are too many clan mech in match it might end up 2 clan heavy lances against 3 IS lances. Perhaps it could be made into a choice much like selecting assault, conquest, skirmish; in this case IS only, Clan only, or mixed.

Another area to look for balance might be the pilot trees. Change the piloting upgrades to make the clan mechs more difficult to drive (although I realize this goes against the clan tech superiority.)

Another option would be to look at incentivizing the IS mechs in some other fashion. Perhaps more cbills for IS victories than clan mechs. Make weapons or upgrades more expensive as well again pushing people to grind in their IS mech's in order to upgrade or equip their clan mechs. Or perhaps a longer lag say several minutes before you can take a clan mech back into another match especially after a loss thus someone might chose to run an IS mech while waiting for their clan mech to time out/rebuild. (If you are looking at revenue the another option could be to use mc to hurry up the time out.) Perhaps adding a module onto an IS mech that would allow someone to important one aspect of clan tech onto an IS mech (i.e. an lrm module that allows an IS catapult to have clan tech lrms only so long as the module is used.)

Map fundamentals may also help. Drop a clan lance into a more disadvantaged position, say closer to their enemies than their team mates. Perhaps alter the goals for clan tech heavy team say 900 resources compared to 750 for an IS team in a conquest match. Or perhaps slow down their cap abilities. I also think map design helps. The new Manifold map is a good design for example. If facing a host of lrm equipped clan mechs it allows you to go into the hanger bay and eliminate that advantage.

In terms of locking down the armor, heat sinks, and /or engine that is an interesting trade. Often times these items are swapped out to improve weapons or vice versa and I personally like being made to chose between armor, speed, or firepower (realize I have omitted heat here). (This three-legged trade-off scheme (armor/speed/firepower) is actually a basic fundamental to all weapon system design in the real world.) Locking two of these in place (armor and speed) does solve some of the balance issue but really disrupts the fundamentals of a weapon system development. Basically your only choice will be to maximize fire power as your armor and speed (and potentially heat dissipation) values are locked and their is nothing you can do to alter them. Therefore I would caution against that trade-off in clan tech. Eliminating two of the three basic fundamentals of weapon system trade-off's and in effect the player has NO decision when it comes weapon system design.

At the end of the day it is a developer's call but I would vote against dumbing down the clan tech too much otherwise what really is the point? If the clan tech and a clan mech ends up just like the IS mech then all the clan mech becomes is just new class of IS mechs with a different name. That is what I feel happened with the Phoenix class -- more of the same old same old. If you want to spark my interest then I would hope that these would be something more than just another Trebuchet or Quickdraw and that they alter game play in a dramatic fashion just liked they dramatically altered mech warfare in Mechwarrior lore.