1978 replies to this topic

[Don]

All I can say is I'm glad I held off on buying any clan packs until I saw more info. The direction they seem to be going with it is just completely wrong in my opinion. Clan tech was OP for a reason. Dumbing it down and making it "fair" for the general community just doesn't seem right to me. There are a ton of alternatives I can think of off the back of my hand that would work better than just flat out nerfing clan tech, which is the easiest and laziest way of doing it. But anyway, off my rant, thanks PGI, I will no longer be supporting or playing this game in any way, shape, or form.

[Cleatus Jones]

Leave the balancing to us!!! No I haven't read all the posts, but just enough to calm down from the ridiculous prices of those golden mechs (which I will attempt to kill regardless of team). I am a hater and admit it. But I think that there should be less focus on balancing. Some say that it's not fair having a Jenner or a Spider going up against a Atlas or Stalker and it sure isn't balanced. And I agree, you lights should take it easy on my Atlas (I can't count the times I've wanted to call out "help, HELP!!! Poor atlas, it's gonna be ok, we'll find that midget and make him pay ). But seriously this game ultimately is about skill! Ever since I've played this game (and we've all heard this one, "people will stop using lights and all go to assaults") Tell that to the die hard Jenner fans (ie Sarah's mech). I think what it boils down to is that PGI needs to give more control to its players. I didn't play all of the MechWarrior/Battletech games, nor do I pretend to know the lore. But I do recall a time in a game called multiplayer battletech where I could find a lobby and everyone would agree to a certain type of game with certain classes of mechs. Whether it was a open class (or the perspective class and lighter) or straight class, team match, free for all, whatever. (which by the way I think PGI should look into. A 24-man last mech barely standing would be fun to participate in and fun for spectators to watch). But let us choose our maps, mechs, classes. That in itself would solve a lot of balancing issues. You want to talk about BALENCE!!!! Drop into a fight on Tera Therma in a LRM boat and talk to me about balance, BULL! Or drop into (cant think of the name, BIG ice board) with a streak Cat and then talk to me about balance. If there were enough different maps and enough game modes you could balance the game thru those as well as player control. If I knew where I was going to fight and what classes were allowed, that would make me use more of the mechs I own, therefor making all mechs useful for certain ops. Who cares about clan weapons? Can we all agree if we had more control as stated above, you could give that weapon/mech any stats, any name ,any range, heat or whatever they would like to do to it. As long as you (The player/end user) could stack any combination of anything on your mechs within it's tonnage limitations for said match, you would enjoy the heck out of this game. Leave the arms race alone its fun. na na na-nah na I got a uac20 before you did, now come on I'll help you get one. WE ALL WANT THE BIG GUNS!!! And who cares if you don't ever use those other guns again. You think IS or for that fact the Clans ever went back to using {Scrap} tech in battle? Thanks for the MLAS ,now order me that new Clan version.

Edited by Cleatus Jones, 19 December 2013 - 10:01 PM.

[Skullshot]

Clan technology is supposed to be superior. Altering base tonnage or criticals should be out of the question, as these statistics of the Inner Sphere equipment have been faithful to lore. Missing from these mechanics are the lore references to the quirks of individual manufacturers of these weapons, but as that would be far more complicated to introduce I accept the omission.

Zellbrigen had a heavy influence upon how the Clans developed and used their weaponry. Their culture focused on the skill in executing an attack rather than simple damage output. Heat management was crucial for some of their designs, as was symmetry for many, as it could maintain some battle value in a unit that has suffered heavy damage. The classic Nova with its 12 ER medium lasers is a good example - firing all of those weapons at once was foolish as the Mech would almost certainly shut right down and become a liability in the field. A good pilot has to know how to use his loadout properly, and Clan technology mechanics can be used to emphasize skill while still maintaining general superiority. A veteran pilot in a Jenner with four IS medium lasers will easily triumph over a rookie in a Nova with 12 Clan ER mediums. My philosophy is pretty basic - let skill and playstyle influence the superiority of the weapons.

I suggest your primary focus be in attack duration, heat balance, and cooldowns. Some unique functionality could also be used to keep the Clan tech from overbalancing the basics. In general, Clan weapons should generate more heat (5-15%) than their IS analogs overall, and their cooldowns should be 15-25% longer.

For missile weapons, I would like to see the Clan launchers use a follow-the-leader (FTL) firing pattern - instead of all the missiles firing simultaneously, the launcher rapidly releases each missile individually into a chain. This would stretch the attack time and missile arrivals so that AMS has time to be effective - like the LRM 20 releasing its full payload over a full second or up to 2s (0.05s-0.1s per missile) and the timing would be universal for their LRM and SSRM systems. It would also reduce the immediate damage impact, giving more time for the target to get into a covered position. Missiles in general are not very maneuverable, and as such at close ranges, LRMs will have difficulty tracking fast targets when they travel in a line - a Spider can run behind the firing Timber Wolf and deprive some missiles of their target. When the target lock is lost due to the Spider moving out of sight, many of the missiles simply fly into terrain straight from the launcher. This would greatly differentiate Clan and Inner Sphere streak missiles, and give a slight edge to future IS releases of larger streak launchers, which would release their missiles in a single burst, thus having a greater chance of all striking the target. AMS was not widely used by Clan mechs; they wanted their warriors to use terrain and skillful piloting as defense rather than having autonomous weaponry. Clan missiles would deliver more overall screen shake due to the extended impacts when they do strike, and perhaps they could have tighter groupings so that the damage is not spread as far, which would give them a slight edge to account for the flight pattern's vulnerability to cover and countermeasures. Their streaks and LRMs would be best utilized in direct line-of-sight combat, which is aligned with the zellbrigen philosophy (as I understand it). IS launchers would be superior for indirect LRM fire and immediate streak hits.

I like the idea of spreading the damage of Clan lasers over a longer period. Skilled warriors will maintain their crosshairs over the target and deliver the full measure of the attack. It is already an acquired skill tracking fast units with IS lasers. Clan pulse lasers would suffer more from such a mechanic, but their greater ranges and damage values will make up for this. While IS pulse lasers are currently 5 (or more?) quick pops, Clan pulse lasers could use only 3 bursts spread over 10-20% more time. (Instead of pop-pop-pop-pop-pop, boom - boom - boom...) Again this will emphasize skill delivering the full superiority of the weapon.

Clan autocannons should be as close to identical to their IS counterparts as possible for damage and heat per shot, but since they only use the UAC-style, all of their guns have a chance to jam. Perhaps it could be 8% or 9% instead of the current 10%, and the bigger the gun the longer it takes to release a jam. I can see Clan UAC-2's with a fire rate under 0.3s, but that heat generation per shot and the chance to jam would curb their usefulness. A possible additional mechanic could be applied here, where the heat of the weapon increases the chance of jam, or even forces a jam so that the barrel can cool off; if a cannon barrel is warped by heat it would be a very bad day for the cannoneer. This could also allow flamers to jam up autocannons, which would make them significantly more useful weapons.

When it comes to Gauss cannons, the Clan version should have a minimum range (lower damage) to balance its longer reach, and a longer recycle time, shorter charge period, longer period to hold a charge before firing, and increased fragility (maybe 2-3 fewer hit points). If a Gauss cannon is a delicate device, a refined version using more compact parts would be more delicate, and be just as destructive when it bursts.

The Clan ERPPC must generate 2 more heat and have a longer recharge than the IS version. Perhaps add the Gauss charge mechanic to the Clan ERPPC. Its projectile should be faster as it has further to travel at maximum range.

Clan machine guns are lighter than the IS version, but otherwise their tabletop statistics are the same. Perhaps the Clan version could have a shorter effective range since the IS version's range was expanded, but do slightly more damage; or they could be same damage and range but lower fire rate - the idea being to have them give up something to account for the reduced weight. You could even make them functionally identical, as in tabletop, but make them come in pairs, taking up half a ton, 2 criticals and 2 ballistic slots.

I like this concept of swapping components between variants, but it will not mesh well with the individual chassis variant quirks. It would do a pilot no good if one arm behaves differently than the other; this would not be tolerated by professional mechanics anyway. Swapping arms would have to happen in fixed pairs to ensure equal balance and synchronicity.

The Awesome 9M has two missile and two laser hardpoints in its center torso, but they cannot all be used at once. Granted, that is simply an issue with available space, but perhaps it could be integrated into the Omni components. For example, one pair of arms features 3 ballistic and 2 missile hardpoints in the RA, with 2 energy, 1 missile and 1 ballistic in the LA. In the RA, 3 of the 5 hardpoints may be utilized at once, while in the LA only 2 of 4 may be used. This allows good flexibility while still restricting the weapon capacity. Combine the weapon layouts of two canon variants to determine what hardpoints will be available in each pair of arms. When in doubt, add a ballistic or missile hardpoint.

This concludes my thoughts - for now. Thank you for the time and attention you devoted to reading my dissertation...

[Skullshot]

One more thought - tie Clan tech availability to House loyalty, or initiate a real salvage system. Maybe both.

Clan tech could be awarded based upon your House affiliation. Perhaps FRR has access to Clan ER Medium Lasers, KLR gets Streak SRM 6, DAV has ER Large Lasers and MRK gets Clan LRM 20. Maybe a Clan weapon will be bestowed upon people with high Faction ratings, when hitting certain milestones; or perhaps you have to be affiliated with a specific house to be able to purchase certain Clan tech weaponry. Mercenaries would earn the rights to Clan tech through direct salvage or through Loyalty Points, and while they may end up with access to every Clan weapon, the C-Bill prices will always be marked up 25%-50% higher than for loyal affiliates. This way, people can get Clan tech without paying a cent of real money - no justified Pay-to-Win Clan complaints.

If the winners of a Skirmish game could select salvage from the remnants of the losing team, individual Clan weapons could infiltrate the general population in a viral fashion. The winner with the highest score gets to pick 1 piece of equipment from the not-destroyed locations of the enemy Mechs. Each winning player then gets a turn based upon match score to pick a salvage item. Note: the losers do not relinquish the gear; the winner gets the single item and the loser's is replaced in repairs. If there are not enough surviving pieces of equipment, or a player passes on their turn, those who did not pick from the pile get a share of C-bills from scrap. Players who disconnect before the end of the match do not get to pick from the salvage pile; they automatically get a share of the C-Bills. This way, those who purchased Clan tech with real money will eventually distribute the goods to the rest of the community, and Clan weapons are either unavailable or highly restricted in the market. A Mech chassis may be available for salvage if 1) the Mech was destroyed by XL engine loss, head destruction, or leg destruction; and 2) the player has an open Mech Bay. The chassis would be bestowed as if bought straight off the shelf, but without weapons or an engine. This would be a valuable chunk of C-Bills or an opportunity to get to know a new Mech, depending on the player. It also encourages some spending of real money to acquire Mech Bays; a even free-to-play has to entice customers to spend money somehow. Salvaged Clan chassis could be either fixed variants as appeared in the match or the Prime variant (salvaging player cannot swap arms/torso but can change the engine). Clan XL engines could be salvaged from Clan mechs with no head or legs. This would allow players who bought factory-basic Clan mechs to expand the variety of their loadouts - salvage new chassis so you can change the engines.

I would like individual Clan Mechs and/or weapons to be sold based upon Community Warfare stats (House loyalty/affiliation). Mercenaries like me will be forced to scavenge Clan tech in the field, while House loyalists would be able to buy some things while having to salvage the rest.

Thank you again for your time.

Edited by Skullshot, 19 December 2013 - 11:27 PM.

[Miken]

Anyone heard any mention about omnislots? i don't...

Edited by Miken, 19 December 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[Taemien]

Miken, on 19 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Anyone heard any mention about omnislots? i don't...

Whole arms apparently. If you don't like the hardpoints on one variant, supposedly you just swap it out for another arm from another variant of the same mech.

[KingNobody]

Sign me up for the TKing of gold mech pilots.

Also, I think that the Clan Omnimechs, as designed, are going to be near useless on the battlefield. The fact that you can't redistribute or increase armor is going to make them as sad as trial 'mechs. fixed engine ratings are livable (although are going to be absurdly punishing to Clan light 'mechs speed is life remember?), as well as fixed JJ/HS locations, but making the armor fixed is going to kill Clan mechs IMO

Also, What does PGI have against the concept of an omni hardpoint? This would make customizing Clan 'mechs much simpler, and would make different configs actually be different, by varying the number/location of omni hardpoints vs "fixed" hardpoints. For example, the Timberwolf Prime could have omni hardpoints in the arms, but ballistic hardpoints in the torso. The A config could have the ballistic hardpoints in the torso and so on. Or, you could replace all ballistic and energy hardpoints with omni hardpoints, and the difference between configurations could be engine size, JJ number/location, and DHS number/location. I think that both of these ideas would work better than the current plan, both in terms of game balance and enjoyment.

In conclusion, I believe that if implemented as is, Clan tech will amount to nothing more than whichever Assault/Heavy chassis that will have the least pathetic armor distribution. Clan lights will not be used at all as they will be defenseless and useless, and the metagame will swing even further towards mobigga mobetta.

In addendum, I would like to also add my disgust at the fact that PGI expects it's loyal and long-suffering playerbase (oh wait, we're not loyal unless we buy $500 gold 'mechs, right?) to swallow ANOTHER ridiculous cash-grab (and the biggest one yet, I might add) before the implementation of the CRUCIAL systems that would finally make this a GAME rather than a circa-1997 LAN matchmaking lobby.

[Victor Morson]

Basically we want two factions that play entirely differently.. High tech limited units vs low tech lots of units. Instead we're getting butchered but still op clan mechs that remove is mechs from relevance.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 December 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[Miken]

Taemien, on 19 December 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Whole arms apparently. If you don't like the hardpoints on one variant, supposedly you just swap it out for another arm from another variant of the same mech.

Then it's not omnimech at all
Look here - this is true omnislots on true omnimech
http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/4969.pdf

Edited by Miken, 20 December 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[Grey Knight]

Everyone is talking about BALANCE....let lrm have minimum range, fire streaks that way etc

But most of you guys completly miss the point....This Game is Unbalanced because the Mechs we have allready are OP.

Explanation: In Tabletop you have a certain amount of Internal Structure, this Structure could be protected by Twice the Amount of Armour Points.

As an Example: If you have 25 points of structure on CT you can have up to 50 points Armor on CT.
This sytem is used by MWO....everyone experiend this ingame allready. if your CT is gone your mech is gone. Fact

That is the reason why most of the mechs in original Battle Tech have only one main weapon and you only will find few models with AC 20, because otherwise its too much damage output for this kind of Armor/structure System. That is why PGi have to implement Ghost heat etc...because they OP it allready.

The reason why you have a lot of diffrent mechtypes in classic BT, so you have to play as a team.

Clans were designed to be solo Fighters, thats why they could individualice their mechs according to their battle style....They originally had only one on one fights till they get their *** beaten by IS teamtactics.

So stop whining about an unbalanced game when all of you are using selfmade OP mechs according to the core System.

Some of you compare it to starcraft...every unit has its role to play in certain situation. Right now in MWO nearly everyone can do everything...we have OMNI Mechs allready!!!


And yes...skill is important, it makes the difference in a good game. but it shouldnt be that "easy" to beat an assault with an selfmade light mech.


All of you should ask yourself the question what kind of game you wanna play?

If PGI would have used 3025 Tech instead of 3050 or used 3050 with more restrictions for modiyfing mechs, you would have more interesting fights, they would be longer and skill would be much more important!

The point is, if you use basic Rules for construction then stay with the rules! Let us play IS-Mechs and Clan-Mechs as they supposed to be!

Edited by Grey Knight, 20 December 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Cavendish]

Since you are going to introduce weight balancing, why not go the entire way?

Clan honor demands that a battle begins with the diffrent clans bidding to take the objective with as few warriors as possible. Why not use that lore and put it into the matchmaker?

One side is clan (because honestly, mixed teams will feel rediculous) the other is IS.

480 tons on IS side, 300-380 on clan side.

Leave the tech as it is.

This way you can preserve the lore feeling to the game, you give the clan players what they want (to play clans, duh!) and the advanced clan tech will be offset by fewer numbers.

(but but but, I wanna play with my friends who play in IS mechs with my not-at-all-over-the-top-Timber-Wolf! Well tough, if you invest in playing the clans, your bloody well play the clans).

[Stormwolf]

Victor Morson, on 20 December 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Basically we want two factions that play entirely differently.. High tech limited units vs low tech lots of units. Instead we're getting butchered but still op clan mechs that remove is mechs from relevance.

I'd personally like the game to be divided into:
1. Successor States
2. Mercs
3. Clans

I'd like to expand more on this, but I simply don't have the time right now.

[Victor Morson]

Hidden Sniper, on 19 December 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Is balancing by increasing heat a bit really helpful in the overall power of the given weapon?

Whoever balances things at PGI only know heat, range and damage for major nerfs.

Honestly the PPC could stand a +2 second fire rate or something with a Ghost Heat removal, then everyone wins. there's no reason half the guns fire as fast as they do (though it's almost a good thing Fast Fire does absolutely nothing).

The few changes they've made to things like velocity and duration have made BIGGER impacts on how the game actually plays than undilluted stupidity like Ghost Heat.

For example bumping the SRM velocity = probably would resolve most of the hit issues without reveinting the wheel, but apparently that idea is to wild and crazy or something.

Stormwolf, on 20 December 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

I'd personally like the game to be divided into:
1. Successor States
2. Mercs
3. Clans

I'd like to expand more on this, but I simply don't have the time right now.

So you are saying that you'd like the game exactly as it was pitched? Me too man.

Cavendish, on 20 December 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

Since you are going to introduce weight balancing, why not go the entire way?

Clan honor demands that a battle begins with the diffrent clans bidding to take the objective with as few warriors as possible. Why not use that lore and put it into the matchmaker?

One side is clan (because honestly, mixed teams will feel rediculous) the other is IS.

480 tons on IS side, 300-380 on clan side.

Leave the tech as it is.

This way you can preserve the lore feeling to the game, you give the clan players what they want (to play clans, duh!) and the advanced clan tech will be offset by fewer numbers.

(but but but, I wanna play with my friends who play in IS mechs with my not-at-all-over-the-top-Timber-Wolf! Well tough, if you invest in playing the clans, your bloody well play the clans).

Weight/BV/Player disparities is the obvious way to handle this.

However, Paul created the holy Ghost Heat, and must add it to everything he can. It makes new users stick around, you know?

[Akatsuki]

From my limited understanding of clans, the reason why they were so feared was a combination of advanced technology and superior piloting skills and different tactics.

Although it might be deviating from the background, why don't we emphasise the superior piloting skills element so that clan mechs and weapons reward better pilots?

What I am thinking of is to make all clan tech more powerful than IS tech but also make them very fragile.

Looking at Sarna, clan mechs appear to be generally faster than their IS counterparts anyway and so perhaps they can be balanced so that they take less damage than their IS equivalents but they are harder to hit. Turn and twist speeds can also be a factor as well. In combination with clan weapons being more fragile.

The bottom line would be that Clan mechs are faster and do more damage but are much more fragile but IS mechs may not be as fast or do quite as much damage but they are a lot tougher and can take more damage than a clan mech.

[Victor Morson]

In almost all of the official game scenarios, stories, fiction, fluff, you name it the IS always outnumbers the Clans about 3:1 and it's still an uphill battle. I'm fine with that. It's an ENTIRELY different playstyle, but even, and that is good.

It's not the abomination they have planned, at least.

[Russhuster]

i wonder why ll that controverse discussed issue of ballancing is causing that difficulty, beause it is not difficult at all.

iam a mad man and i have a mad idea

why dont we just stay close to the original concept Thus wil give us the all desired ballanc AND the athmosphere we all want

Simply leave clan tech and Omni mechs as theyre designed to be: !!Superior tech!!
But AClan team always ha the Penalty of either Tonage (Dropweight by 2/3 of IS for example)
or a numerous disadvantage by 10 to 12 or even less 8 to 12 for example
by the way that refers to the clan concept and the Batchall

A OMNI Mech has to have OMNI PLACES and reactors can be as easyly changed as everyehere else maybe just with the exception there are only xl variants.Anything else would be quite ridiculous.

But Clan tech is a high developed piece of tech so let ist be expensive at least 3 times in cbills what an is equivalent would cost

Clan lights like the uller, adder etc should be at least as fast as a jenner or a raven wich i d see running at 150mph and even faster

The experience benifits here representet by 3 mech variants IS style can simply be increased but not only by factor three but lets say by 5 to represent the higher training status of a clanner

additional Bombardment in any kind Artillery or airstrike are not available because these are not honourable in battle for clan

would that not satisfy both the Ballancing concerns AND the player community?

Rußhuster

[Akatsuki]

It seems to me that weightbalancing makes sense but only if you keep it so that only clan mechs can take clan tech otherwise you will find that people load up IS mechs with clan tech and the IS mechwarriors also have a weight advantage on top of it. In reality I suspect that as with most things we need to test it to see how it will work

[Russhuster]

exactly thats the way it was intended only clan mechs can carry clan tech

[Nesutizale]

From what I understand the balanceing issue comes from the point of view that:

A] we have the same tonnage / team size for Clan and IS

B] Players wouldn't play by the rules of Clan warfare

Point a] should be easy to fix by calculating clan mechs with a higher tonnage/battlevalue/teamsize restriction...whatever is currently used to make up the teams.

Point B] is a much harder case. What could be done to force people to follow the code of clanfights? A rough idea that I had is to reduce a players income till the point he gets zero points! Where players currently get a big part of c-Bills from aiding teammates via kill-assists you will now get a penalty for interfearing with teammates kills.
Also a clan player who kill-assists more then 3times in a game will become a "free for all" target that anyone can shoot and earn points.

Another idea I just had as I write this is a third currancy for clanplayers. An honor system for those who play by the book. Instead of beeing able to buy variants you can only use honor points to get more variants. Dishonorable pilots will be stuck with the Prime version till they learn how to follow the rules.


I know that this is quite restrictive and all but it would give the two sides quite a different feeling of gameplay and put in some meaning in choosing to play Clan or IS. While IS can go all nuts with any kind of rules Claner have to force themselfs into following the rules but on the other side they get all these nice techstuff to play with.

Think about it...would you rather like to have just another bunch of mechs that don't feel any different or have a real different experiance when playing a different faction?

Edited by Nesutizale, 20 December 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[Kotrin]

Clan aren't supposed to be balanced vs. Inner Sphere - that's such a ridiculous standpoint to begin with that's it's even hard to discuss. But this is from the guy that brought to you 1.4 DHS and Ghost heat, so everything is possible.

Clan are matching IS because of Zellbringen : each clan pilot is supposed to engage ONE enemy mech at a time, turning the battlefield in a series of duels ; only when the clan target is destroyed can the clan pilot engage another target. An IS pilot engaging a clan mech already in a duel is an honorless coward, so may be engaged freely by any clan Mech.

Zellbringen could be so easy to implement not doing it under MWO would be a shame. It's easy to use target colors to know if a given enemy is under Zellbringen or not (e.g. white: eligible for engagement ; yellow: engaged by another teammate ; red: engaged by yourself, or not protected by Zellbringen: may be targeted freely.)

Not respecting Zellbringen should give a shaft of 50-75% on rewards for each culprit among clan pilots, it would certainly help them try their best!

Also, Clan should implement bidding wars: clans try to undercut each other and to engage enemy with the minimal amount of forces. Each clan pilot could for example assign a multiplier to his Mech tonnage (up to x2 in .1 increments) that would be used for matchmaking ; each player would have to set the right penalty for him to let him play.

Finally, as a rule of thumb clans could fight 10 vs. 12 (2 stars vs 3 lances).

But don't nerf Clan Tech. Even thinking about it shows you did not understand the underlying concepts of Battletech.

Edited by Kotrin, 20 December 2013 - 04:54 AM.