1978 replies to this topic

[NRP]

N0t Me, on 31 December 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

the best way to balance this thing is to give IS stuff a niche they can exploit to be better than clan stuff, but since im no MW expert i dont know what this niche could be

Well, I'm not that well versed in Battletech but according to the "lorists", the IS "niche" is greater numbers. Seems like as good a place to start as any.

Edited by NRP, 31 December 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Endo Steel]

I would absolutely love to see those mechs in the game...but these guys are right. You can't do this before CW is implemented!!! We need AT LEAST 6 months of fully operational community warfare before the Clan invasion or the entire point of it will be destroyed.

This game needs to be restructured from the ground up, with a tiered gameplay system that allows for mechs of "higher" combat potential to be set against mechs of "lower" potential in a balanced way. The best way I've seen a player-base create balanced games between IS and Clan tech was using C-bill drop limits, and they had to do it very carefully.

After all, isn't that how the tabletop game was fundamentally balanced? A star of Clan mechs (5) is a balanced opponent for 2 lances of IS mechs (8). I loved that setup, and it wasn't at all unpleasant to be on the IS side, because you need tighter formations and teamwork.

[Cornmiser]

Taemien, on 30 December 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Cornmiser, did you read what they said they intend to do with Clan tech?

Yes, I did, but that doesn't mean that I can't have a different idea about how to go about it, can I?

[Victor Morson]

Cornmiser, on 31 December 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yes, I did, but that doesn't mean that I can't have a different idea about how to go about it, can I?

I think the point is they aren't listening in light of:
Paul/Russ: I have a great idea!!! [Insert Terrible Idea]
90% of the forums: NO!!! [Thousands of votes]
Paul/Russ: We're so sorry.... that we're doing it anyway! lol [Insert at least one insult tweet]
Forum Riots: A thousand years of darkness, dogs and cats living together...
Paul/Russ: Great success! We're glad we didn't listen to what you wanted instead.

Honestly I'd give them way more chances if they'd stop acting like this. The fact the above scenario isn't "the darkest hour" of MW:O but a cycle is why a lot of us are upset in the first place.

Edited by Victor Morson, 31 December 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Koshirou]

Endo Steel, on 31 December 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

You can't do this before CW is implemented!!! n

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Because they certainly can, no matter how much of a half-baked, horrible idea it is.

[Taemien]

Cornmiser, on 31 December 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yes, I did, but that doesn't mean that I can't have a different idea about how to go about it, can I?

Well my point was and I wasn't clear (my bad on this one) is that some of your ideas were pretty similar to the things the devs posted. That's why I asked. It was an honest question, not sarcasm.

[Cornmiser]

Taemien, on 31 December 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well my point was and I wasn't clear (my bad on this one) is that some of your ideas were pretty similar to the things the devs posted. That's why I asked. It was an honest question, not sarcasm.

I mean that to create a balance for Clan tech they should either change the mechanics OR increase heat/recharge time. Implementing both has too high a chance to mess with the weapons and such, transforming them from the "superior technology" to an alternate version of previous weapons that are just plain wonky to use.

[keith]

Victor Morson, on 31 December 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think the point is they aren't listening in light of:
Paul/Russ: I have a great idea!!! [Insert Terrible Idea]
90% of the forums: NO!!! [Thousands of votes]
Paul/Russ: We're so sorry.... that we're doing it anyway! lol [Insert at least one insult tweet]
Forum Riots: A thousand years of darkness, dogs and cats living together...
Paul/Russ: Great success! We're glad we didn't listen to what you wanted instead.

Honestly I'd give them way more chances if they'd stop acting like this. The fact the above scenario isn't "the darkest hour" of MW:O but a cycle is why a lot of us are upset in the first place.

its like we are in MWO dark age:P god them books are horrible....

[Rebas Kradd]

Victor Morson, on 31 December 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think the point is they aren't listening in light of:
Paul/Russ: I have a great idea!!! [Insert Terrible Idea]
90% of the forums: NO!!! [Thousands of votes]
Paul/Russ: We're so sorry.... that we're doing it anyway! lol [Insert at least one insult tweet]
Forum Riots: A thousand years of darkness, dogs and cats living together...
Paul/Russ: Great success! We're glad we didn't listen to what you wanted instead.

Honestly I'd give them way more chances if they'd stop acting like this. The fact the above scenario isn't "the darkest hour" of MW:O but a cycle is why a lot of us are upset in the first place.

This is being pedantic. The only features this story is really applicable to is 3PV and consumables, and not a soul on this board is blaming them for the broken state of the game.

[Jaxwen]

The write up translates to IS being just as effective technologically balanced verse Clan tech. That described core intent for design methodology:
A) Contradicts the justification for increased pricing of Clan preorder packages.
B) Nullifies the whole lore of Clan being superior technology.

I very much disagree with the approach and submit to you the possibility MWO would be far better served to abandon the balancing via technology equalization and instead balance via social & battlefield mechanics.

Please consider the following suggestions:
A) Justify the cost increase for Clan chassis by delivering design methodology for Clan tech to retain superior status.

IF A MWO PLAYER CAN CHOOSE TO PLAY A SUPERIOR CLAN MECH AND GO AGAINST AN OPPOSING TEAM WITH GREATER NUMBERS OF LESSER TECH, THE GAME HAS A PERCEPTION OF BALANCE.

IF A MWO PLAYER CAN CHOOSE TO PLAY A DISADVANTAGED TECH IS MECH AND GO WITH TACTICS OUTNUMBERING THEIR OPPOSING TEAM, THE GAME HAS A PERCEPTION OF BALANCE.

B) Balance IS verse Clan on battlefield through game mechanics of any or all of:
(I) Match Making such as Clan mechs elo rating increase and/or quantity of mechs on the team.
(II) Perhaps use restriction to only allow launch into battle in a group that is ALL IS chassis or ALL Clan chassis.

If I want to play my IS mech, I can form/join an IS group with a quantity of player requirement ie. 12. When the players in that group ready up, all Clan chassis are restricted and any player attempting to ready with a Clan chassis will fail to toggle ready.

If I want to play my Clan mech, I can form/join a Clan group with a balanced quantity of player requirement ie. 5 (or more?). Conversely to the IS group parameters, when players in that clan group ready up, all IS mechs are restricted but Clan mechs are permitted.

If I want to play solo instead of in a full sized group, when I launch in a Clan chassis, matchmaker places me in a team with players appropriately above par based off elo + clan factor based off my MechWarrior record as well as technology factor.

I believe the design team could accomplish fine tune balancing and maintain lore along with satisfying the MechWarrior community with much greater success with the above alternative approach. Please consider doing so.

Respectfully, attempting to balance via nerfing the central known difference between IS and Clan technology as an extreme technological advantage/disadvantage is a self destruct decision for MWO - IGP/PGI.

Thank you for reviewing this submitted feedback.

Sincerely,

Jaxwen

Edited by Jaxwen, 31 December 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[Taemien]

Cornmiser, on 31 December 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I mean that to create a balance for Clan tech they should either change the mechanics OR increase heat/recharge time. Implementing both has too high a chance to mess with the weapons and such, transforming them from the "superior technology" to an alternate version of previous weapons that are just plain wonky to use.

I personally like the idea of clan weapons getting a slight range advantage, and having a slightly higher damage per shot value. But overall having lower DPS and slightly less heat efficient. That way they still feel clannish (long range), while the Inner Sphere excels at DPS.

I know others just want better in all areas. But thats simply not going to work in a game where its Pick Mech, Click Launch, Fight 12v12 and repeat. If this game was a bit more open like EVE Online, and mechs were disposable.. and you could pick and choose your engagments, then that'd be a different story.

But MWO is the Former, not the Latter. I wish it could be the latter, but what I want and what is reality are two different things.

[GumbyC2C]

an easy fix for the Clan LRMs is to make them direct fire only. Clan battle rules forbid this so it makes sense that they would not have developed this ability. You could keep the minimum range too since that was originally a typo in the TRO:3050.

The other balancing proposals are not too bad. It would be nice to have individual clan mechs available for MC instead of those expensive packages too.

[Marcus Tanner]

This is a game where the designers want each player to be able to drop with mechs that are equivalent in power, such that a Jenner and a Timber Wolf will be equally useful. They want to do this so that people can choose the mech they want without feeling handicapped. They want comparable stats in terms of kill/death and win/loss for the purposes of eSports possibilities, which removes the option of 12v10 fights, for instance (otherwise the stats will all be perceptibly off) They want each mech to be interchangeable.

They need to account for Victor Steiner-Davion's Daishi. He's an Inner Sphere pilot using Inner Sphere tactics while sitting in a clan mech... as often happens in the background. I think it's fair to allow that option.

Rebas Kradd, on 31 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

This is being pedantic. The only features this story is really applicable to is 3PV and consumables, and not a soul on this board is blaming them for the broken state of the game.

I think we have a different appreciation of the souls on this board.

Taemien, on 31 December 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

I know others just want better in all areas. But thats simply not going to work in a game where its Pick Mech, Click Launch, Fight 12v12 and repeat. If this game was a bit more open like EVE Online, and mechs were disposable.. and you could pick and choose your engagments, then that'd be a different story.

That's not the only way. I think that you can manage a disparity in the power of the tech by giving Inner Sphere mechs a bunch more module slots.

That way, the package can be of comparable power while the clanners get more powerful mechs. I know that not everyone would be on board with a Spider and Summoner being of overall equal effectiveness, but it's really no worse than a Spider being as good as a Star-League tech Atlas. We've already crossed that bridge.

There are a few options for setting this square peg in a round hole here.

[HUNTEDONE]

There are a lot of thing that are broken in this game. Clipping issues on maps, ghost heat, bugged mechs, viop, just to name a few. Then there are release time lines that have been totally screwed, I.E. IU 2.0, CWs, etc. Yet instead of working to fix the problems and release quality things when they say they will all PGI does is provide more "eye" candy. Phoenix mechs new maps, and other {Scrap} we dont need yet. I have more money tied into this game then I would care to admit because I love the MW series, I own em all and have been playing them my whole life. I had hoped my investment into PGI would make a good game here but instead all they do is screw us, the followers. Believe me when I say I really want to buy a clan package, but until I see improvement on PGIs part within the game then no more money for them from me.

Now there are easy ways of balancing the clan mechs with out screwing the game. Example. Make all IS mechs able upgrade to omnimechs, for a price of course. Lets say I want to upgrade my Protector to use the clan weaponry, cost 5mil cbils for omni hardpoints and 10k gxp for pilot training to use lets say clan energy weapons. Or upgrade my Atlas DDC for Clan balistics, LRMs, and Energy, 5mil cbils for each weapon type, and 20k gxp for each weapon type training in pilot lab.

If they did something like this. it would give the player base, us, an opportunity to upgrade our IS mechs to compete on an almost even level with the Clan Mechs. This way they dont have to screw with the weapons themselves or anything like that, that would break the game, and screw the clan mechs from the start.

[TibsVT]

Please just stagger the launch times of the missiles. Don't fiddle with weights or damage scaling...

Quote

Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.

Now I'm not suggesting I expect PGI to force us to sternly abide by the rules of Zellbrigen, however subtly poking us in that general direction would be a great move.

So a Clan LRM-20, for example, could take 2 seconds (1 missile launched every 0.1 second) to fire it's full volley rather then all 20 being launched at once (as the IS version does currently).

So while the missiles fly along a much more directed arch the staggered fire rate allows an AMS to hit more of the missiles before they land. By making the missiles fly flatter you also force players to play in a more "Clan-like" manner rather then sitting back boating as you'd require constant sight of a target for the full volley to have the most effect, lest you may hit with the first few missiles but the latter half may be avoided by an agile opponent. These are the Clans after all. While, again, I don't think PGI should force everyone to adopt the Clan rules of engagement (as that would be rude to the casual players out there) I do believe there are some aspects you can toss in there so that playing in a Clan 'Mech has the right 'feel' to it.

Clan SSRMs should work much the same. Single missiles in a short stagger (~0.1/sec). At least I think that would help balance out the missile problems without ruining them completely.

Edited by KelesK, 01 January 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Taemien]

Marcus Tanner, on 01 January 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

That's not the only way. I think that you can manage a disparity in the power of the tech by giving Inner Sphere mechs a bunch more module slots.

All I can say is this is an interesting take. Reason I cannot agree or disagree with it is that new modules are still to come and I have no clue how much impact they will have. If they have a very large impact then I can agree with this. Otherwise not. This is going to be a wait and see subject.

Quote

That way, the package can be of comparable power while the clanners get more powerful mechs. I know that not everyone would be on board with a Spider and Summoner being of overall equal effectiveness, but it's really no worse than a Spider being as good as a Star-League tech Atlas. We've already crossed that bridge.

I don't see anything wrong with that myself. In TT I've seen 3025 era lights 1v1 clan heavies and come out on top. It came down to favorable terrain and lucky initiative rolls.. as well as +4 to +5 hit penalties due to speed, and staying in infavorable fire arcs, but it happened, and in more than one match.

The way I see it, 1 player = 1 player and 1 mech = 1 mech. Firepower to speed ratios I think should roughly equal out. So while a light can't dish or take as much as an assault, it can avoid most shots and land most shots on the slower mech. I'm all for agility reductions and engine size limits on heavier machines to make it easier for lights. But thats beyond the scope of this thread. But I will say this. Anyone who wants lights or mediums simply plastered do not favor true balance. They may say they do by resorting to weight limits (like I have heard in this thread about clan mechs getting weighted heavier), but that just means they want to keep to their heavier machines and let their poor teammates slug around as cannon fodder in lighter mechs. Not realizing they would see higher queue times and failed queues if they got their wish.

[Victor Morson]

Rebas Kradd, on 31 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

This is being pedantic. The only features this story is really applicable to is 3PV and consumables, and not a soul on this board is blaming them for the broken state of the game.

Ghost Heat. 3PV. Lack of Balance. Gold 'mechs.

Ongoing inclusion of feature after feature nobody cares about over CW.

Pedantic this post was not.

[Kuna]

To be honest you can probably leave the clans alone.. the game has alrady been balanced for heat.. true clans will have more guns and more flexibility but will still have to deal with heat..

they have smaller double heat sinks but effectively they will be more flexible but same issues as the IS mechs... the pilot will make the difference.

[Hood]

I think Founders who have bought the P mechs should get a discount for supporting for such a long time.

[PixelBurster]

so the fix to clan Weaponry is to augment Heat generation... how is it a fix since we can add more heatsinks as the weapon weighs less and take less critslots?

Edited by PixelBurster, 02 January 2014 - 02:42 AM.