1978 replies to this topic

[KingNobody]

I still say that the lack of armor redistribution and engine upgradability will make the clan 'mechs useless, unless they come with the armor front-loaded, and even then the fact that core systems (engine, armor, heatsinks, etc..) cannot be swapped out will confer a significant disadvantage to Clan 'mechs. Couple that with the planned extreme nerf to the damage and heat values of Clan weaponry and you have a **** that can be smelled from 6 months away.

[NRP]

Well, to be fair, PGI probably isn't quite sure what to do about Clan tech yet. On paper, Clan gear looks to be so overwhelmingly superior that it's perfectly understandable that the first thought would be "OMG, we need to tone this stuff down!" It's a challenging task.

I suspect (hope, actually) that they'll find through testing that the game engine's current heat mechanics will probably render most of the Clan weapons practically ineffective, so tweaking a few numbers isn't really going to work. To be honest, I would like them to do a public beta test with Clan gear (as is) against IS gear, in an asymmetric warfare game mode (8-10 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs). This way they could better evaluate exactly what needs to be done given the tendencies of the player base at large.

It would also drive sales of Clan packs because you would need Clan gear in order to participate in this beta test.

[Bhael Fire]

I'm a little worried about this whole Clan tech thing.

If they try to balance Clan tech for 12 vs 12 matches and allow both sides to use Clan tech in matches, I'm pretty sure the world will end. It's like dividing by zero...or crossing the streams...or sneezing with your eyes open.

I know they don't want to limit players and gimp their sales, but it would be nice if they could somehow allow players to dynamically switch factions based on what mech they drop with. That is, if they drop with a Clan mech, they fight for the Clans. If they drop with an IS mech they fight for their chosen IS faction.

That way they can maintain each faction's character without limiting players to specific faction-based tech. It would also allow them to not worry about Clan tech balance as much because they could use the canonical asymmetrical matches (5 vs 8, 10 vs 12, etc.).

Edited by Bhael Fire, 03 January 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Taemien]

Bhael Fire, on 03 January 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

I'm a little worried about this whole Clan tech thing.

If they try to balance Clan tech for 12 vs 12 matches and allow both sides to use Clan tech in matches, I'm pretty sure the world will end. It's like dividing by zero...or crossing the streams...or sneezing with your eyes open.

I know they don't want to limit players and gimp their sales, but it would be nice if they could somehow allow players to dynamically switch factions based on what mech they drop with. That is, if they drop with a Clan mech, they fight for the Clans. If they drop with an IS mech they fight for their chosen IS faction.

That way they can maintain each faction's character without limiting players to specific faction-based tech. It would also allow them to not worry about Clan tech balance as much because they could use the canonical asymmetrical matches (5 vs 8, 10 vs 12, etc.).

Why would it break the game? If they limited the tech, they'd be the first ones in the history of MechWarrior to do so. So needless to say, mixed tech vs mixed tech worked fine before. Well previous games had their issues, that wasn't one of them.

[Bhael Fire]

Taemien, on 03 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Why would it break the game?

I didn't say it would break the game...I said the world would end.

I'm sure the game will be fine. It's the world I'm worried about. I don't want it to end.

[Victor Morson]

Marcus Tanner, on 03 January 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

Firing all your guns at once for maximum damage despite a crippling heat cost is an iconic institution within Battletech and Mechwarrior.

Except the "Tradition" in no way, ever, anywhere in the history of the franchise, has made you pay more heat to strike multiple weapons together; the heat issue came from the guns themselves being hot.

Kind of like how firing 6 PPCs with the current PPC heat would make your 'mech suffer huge heat without extra silly systems.

But there's zero reason firing 2 AC/20s should spike a 'mech to internal-damage levels, where firing them a half second apart (with no UI, for kicks) should create the heat of 6 AC/20s. There is nothing "traditional" about that.

Bhael Fire, on 03 January 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

If they try to balance Clan tech for 12 vs 12 matches and allow both sides to use Clan tech in matches, I'm pretty sure the world will end. It's like dividing by zero...or crossing the streams...or sneezing with your eyes open.

Calling it now: Clantech will force people to replace their entire garage or fall behind. Period.

Edited by Victor Morson, 03 January 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

Victor Morson, on 03 January 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Except the "Tradition" in no way, ever, anywhere in the history of the franchise, has made you pay more heat to strike multiple weapons together; the heat issue came from the guns themselves being hot.

The loadouts were designed in such a way that you *couldn't* "strike multiple weapons together".

There was a weapon that was essentially two large lasers strapped together. It was called the binary laser, or "blazer". It generated all the heat of two large lasers, but didn't do the same damage. Firing two large lasers at the same time at the same point didn't have the additive damage effect that you'd expect. If you want to double your damage, you need to more than double the total of your other costs (heat, tonnage, crits).

If you want that high alpha strike, you should either take a damage penalty for firing all your guns at the same point (the way the blazer did) or you should pay out the nose some other way, such as in heat.

[CypherLord]

I had an idea about balancing out the power of clan tech and omnimechs. I propose that a penalty to c-bills gained at the end of a match be considered. The penalty for using a clan mech would need to be 15% and anywhere from 3 to 12% for clan weapons. If someone needs a way to justify this idea, then consider that omnimechs and clan tech maintenance is expensive. Obviously clan LRM-20s would need to be a 12% penalty to c-bills, cause 5 tons. Know what I mean? I believe that this could be a good idea.

[Taemien]

CypherLord, on 03 January 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I had an idea about balancing out the power of clan tech and omnimechs. I propose that a penalty to c-bills gained at the end of a match be considered. The penalty for using a clan mech would need to be 15% and anywhere from 3 to 12% for clan weapons. If someone needs a way to justify this idea, then consider that omnimechs and clan tech maintenance is expensive. Obviously clan LRM-20s would need to be a 12% penalty to c-bills, cause 5 tons. Know what I mean? I believe that this could be a good idea.

Lets say I have 400,000,000 cbills. I bought a Clan mech with MC....

Why exactly would this be a good idea? Even IF I lose cbills for winning a match with no damage taken and 12 kills and 2300 dmg dealt, why would it matter to me? Cbill wipe? Hehe.. thats a can of worms that would be sort of funny to see opened. But lets not argue/discuss pipedreams and/or fantastical things.

Uneven Teams - out
Zelbrigen - out
Maintenance - out

What else do those who favor OP Clan tech have in mind to further their side of the argument? Oh and by the way... knock it off with the multiple posts outside this thread. They're just locking and linking you here. No need to clutter the forums in hopes of avoiding an honest debate (if the shoe fits, wear it).

[CypherLord]

Taemien, on 03 January 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Lets say I have 400,000,000 cbills. I bought a Clan mech with MC....

Why exactly would this be a good idea? Even IF I lose cbills for winning a match with no damage taken and 12 kills and 2300 dmg dealt, why would it matter to me? Cbill wipe? Hehe.. thats a can of worms that would be sort of funny to see opened. But lets not argue/discuss pipedreams and/or fantastical things.

Uneven Teams - out
Zelbrigen - out
Maintenance - out

What else do those who favor OP Clan tech have in mind to further their side of the argument? Oh and by the way... knock it off with the multiple posts outside this thread. They're just locking and linking you here. No need to clutter the forums in hopes of avoiding an honest debate (if the shoe fits, wear it).

1. That was my first post.
2. A clan mech would undoubtably cost more MC than battlemechs of similar tonnage, with mediums easily costing more than an assault.
3. I'm not suggesting losing c-bills after a match.
4. IF you had 400,000,000 c-bills, you would only need MC to buy mechbays and not mechs.
5. I KNOW clan tech is incredibly powerful. Thats why I'm trying to suggest ideas that make it feel like you have better equipment.
6. I want to see PGI actually make a good mechwarrior game. That includes clan tech and all.
7. People who post things like yours are a stigma. Not just to this game, but to the gaming community as a whole. Most people see gamers as someone who sits in the dark and flames anyone who doesn't have the same opinion as them. Thats all my post was, an OPINION. If you don't like it, then don't say anything.

Edited by CypherLord, 03 January 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[Drunk Canuck]

NRP, on 03 January 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Well, to be fair, PGI probably isn't quite sure what to do about Clan tech yet. On paper, Clan gear looks to be so overwhelmingly superior that it's perfectly understandable that the first thought would be "OMG, we need to tone this stuff down!" It's a challenging task.

I suspect (hope, actually) that they'll find through testing that the game engine's current heat mechanics will probably render most of the Clan weapons practically ineffective, so tweaking a few numbers isn't really going to work. To be honest, I would like them to do a public beta test with Clan gear (as is) against IS gear, in an asymmetric warfare game mode (8-10 Clan mechs against 12 IS mechs). This way they could better evaluate exactly what needs to be done given the tendencies of the player base at large.

It would also drive sales of Clan packs because you would need Clan gear in order to participate in this beta test.

Dude, these guys can't even balance IS tech, what makes anyone think they will be able to balance Clan tech. Literally with the way the game is designed, Clan weapons all being better in every regard screams that Mech's will die horribly. I have already stated what they need to do and that is slice the heat pool in half, remove heat penalties and put weapons at stock values. Then watch as high alpha builders explode trying to fire two PPC's and an AC20 at the same time.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 03 January 2014 - 10:39 PM.

[NRP]

@Taemien
Why are uneven teams out?

[BluefireMW]

I don't know, why the hell uneven teams should be . out.
How about, if there will no chance then nerv something to even out. Let a clan LRM do about 0.8 damage instead of 1.1. It still weighs half, so where is the problem in balance.
Almost all depends finally on damage to even things out.
If you give finally the inner sphere mechs the abiltiy to do melee attacks, like kick and punch, you can put it up again, or adjust it like necessary.
And if the Inner Sphere Mechs kill all the clan mechs, because they almost always run out of ammo, then you see, something is balanced, that didn't need any balance.
A Clan mech dies on Center Torso death like a Inner Sphere mech.
Most of the upgraded versions of the Standard Mechs with Endo Steel and XL are not so much away from a clan mech as some think they are.

Edited by BluefireMW, 04 January 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[Grigor Samsa]

The inability to customize the engine, heatsinks, armor, and certain pieces of fixed equipment on Omnimechs is the dealbreaker for me. That will make just about everything except the Timber Wolf Prime unplayable.

[Taemien]

NRP, on 03 January 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

@Taemien
Why are uneven teams out?

Read AIM64C's posts a few pages back, he outlines it pretty well. He's only touching the surface though, but it still gives a pretty good idea.

In short. The game is just launch, kill mechs, and repeat. Your mech's destruction is a forgone conclusion as well when you launch (at least most of the time). There's no choosing what to engage, its the same match each time (just different opponents). If this game had something a little more open such as you drop on a world and scout ahead to see whats happening and choose to engage based on that info.. then we'd have a different discussion.

Sadly this isn't that game, nor can it be with the CryEngine.

[NRP]

I'm sorry, but that argument is pretty thin. Uneven teams would work just fine in an "attack/defend" game mode.

The issues at hand are pretty simple. On one hand, PGI is worried that leaving Clan tech "as is" would create an "arms race" that would make IS tech obsolete. This is a legitimate concern that would almost certainly come true if Clan tech was just thrown into to the three simplistic 12v12 "death match" game modes we currently have.

On the other hand, the fans don't want the iconic Clan tech watered down so it can fit into the typical 12v12 "death match" oriented game modes we have now.

I think both of these concerns can be addressed by the right type of game mode. An asymmetric "attack/defend" game mode where a group of Clan mechs attack a larger IS force could in theory allow Clan tech to largely stay "as is", while at the same time not rendering IS tech obsolete. It also stays true to lore, which is very important to some for immersion.

Another tangential concern is that everyone will want to run Clan mechs and not IS mechs. Well, all you to do is make this "attack/defend" game mode consist of two rounds: each player must play as an attacker in a Clan mech and also as a defender in an IS mech. Each player's "payout" at match conclusion will be based on his/her cumulative performance in both rounds. This way, anyone who plays this game mode will need the best Clan gear and the best IS gear, thus preserving the balance of power.

This "attack/defend" game mode doesn't need CW at all (although it would segue nicely into it). All they need to do is make slight tweaks to existing maps and we're largely good to go.

It also doesn't upset PGI's financial goals because they can continue to sell IS mechs and Clan mechs because players will still need both for this game mode.

This just seems like such a "win-win" approach to me.

[Alienfreak]

NRP, on 04 January 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but that argument is pretty thin. Uneven teams would work just fine in an "attack/defend" game mode.

The issues at hand are pretty simple. On one hand, PGI is worried that leaving Clan tech "as is" would create an "arms race" that would make IS tech obsolete. This is a legitimate concern that would almost certainly come true if Clan tech was just thrown into to the three simplistic 12v12 "death match" game modes we currently have.

On the other hand, the fans don't want the iconic Clan tech watered down so it can fit into the typical 12v12 "death match" oriented game modes we have now.

I think both of these concerns can be addressed by the right type of game mode. An asymmetric "attack/defend" game mode where a group of Clan mechs attack a larger IS force could in theory allow Clan tech to largely stay "as is", while at the same time not rendering IS tech obsolete. It also stays true to lore, which is very important to some for immersion.

Another tangential concern is that everyone will want to run Clan mechs and not IS mechs. Well, all you to do is make this "attack/defend" game mode consist of two rounds: each player must play as an attacker in a Clan mech and also as a defender in an IS mech. Each player's "payout" at match conclusion will be based on his/her cumulative performance in both rounds. This way, anyone who plays this game mode will need the best Clan gear and the best IS gear, thus preserving the balance of power.

This "attack/defend" game mode doesn't need CW at all (although it would segue nicely into it). All they need to do is make slight tweaks to existing maps and we're largely good to go.

It also doesn't upset PGI's financial goals because they can continue to sell IS mechs and Clan mechs because players will still need both for this game mode.

This just seems like such a "win-win" approach to me.

Or we could just make this an objective and resource based game. More like MW:LL.

But that would mean:
rearm
repair
and... RESPAWN

I mean... immersion would be totally killed once we have respawn. You can't respawn in a proper SIMULATOR!

[Taemien]

NRP, I like the idea of a 2 round attack/defend mode. But how would one participate if they don't own a clan mech? Not everyone is a Clan mech fan. Like myself personally, I don't much care for the 1st gen clan mechs (though I do like some of the 2nd gen ones like the Novacat, Shadowcat, and Cougar), so someone like me would be left out. I doubt they would implement something that would force out players. It would be a brand new precedent to require players to use/buy certain mechs to even participate (at least for ongoing/permanent). One I don't think we should be in favor of.

Then you have those who just want to use clan mechs, why should they have to use IS mechs?

It also causes issues when you mix mechs (IS and Clan on the same team). We still don't even know if the clan factions will be playable. As far as we know, the 'Invasion' is just a bunch of new toys for the current 6 houses plus the merc corps and lonewolves to use. But we don't know the details of that, but it is something to keep in the back of our minds.

I see no reason to split the general queues. You know, the ones we use to grind exp and cbills with. Will it always be Clan vs Clan, IS vs IS, and IS vs Clan? If you allow the mechs to be mixed, no changes are needed to the queues to make that work. But of course that requires Clan to be balanced.

You all think Clan is going to be nerfed when its balanced to IS. Its still going to have a range advantage, tonnage, criticals, ect. It will do adjusted heat (just like every other weapon has since beta). But DPS will be changed as will other mechanics. Remember alot of clan weapons don't have existing IS counterparts. So its hard to call something nerfed compared to IS when IS doesn't even have said item.

Personally I think if clan tech was just upgraded IS tech, it'd be boring. Now we're getting access to brand new toys to dink around with and we should be excited about it, not ticked off and definitely not offended. Thats about 25 new weapons. A balancing nightmare? Sure... but thats what keeps the game interesting. The same mech and variant and config isn't the best always.

[Alienfreak]

And yet you have to ask yourself why they didn't make it 3025 (or even pre that). Most problematic weapon systems are not even in there... Clans decades away...

Only stompy mechs killing each other in epic battles.

Edited by Alienfreak, 04 January 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Heritor Asphodel]

Sable Dove, on 14 December 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Honestly, since there's no way to really balance clans as they're meant to be, It'd be more interesting to simply update IS mechs with the omni-hardpoint functionality, and allow full customization of all mechs. This would introduce balance issues, yes, but only because of the unhealthy attachment to instant, pinpoint convergence at any range and no accuracy penalties for any action, as well as their borked heat system.


Also, since PGI doesn't seem to actually play their own game, the clan mechs are probably going to be under-armoured, with small engines, and most of them are probably going to take FF-armour and not ES-structure.

The best solution, since following canon is not really possible, and is clearly not being done, is to allow full customization of all mechs.

you make a good argument this would clean up some of the mess