1978 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Taemien, on 18 January 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Then you'd know that many of those weapons they carry aren't used except to conserve ammo, or when another is destroyed. There's no way a Daishi can use both arms in a single turn. Thats the point I was making when Clan mechs carry redundant weapons.

Ah okay, i got you now. Well you could say that every mech in MWO has redundant weapons in that case as noone fires them all all the time, unless you build a mech to only alpha strike.

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First of all there is no rules that stat that things should be one way or another in TT. Such as do lasers do instant damage, or damage over time over a period of 1-3 seconds? Is an AC20 one round or multiple in the span of 2, 5, or 10 seconds? The fluff in the source books and novels (which has its own classification, read Fiction vs Rules in any Rules Manual) are a guideline, but don't make up facts. Otherwise Catalyst Games would have a greater input.

So PGI has to work those numbers to make them sort of work in Real Time. The only numbers they can't futz with is Crits and Tons. But heat, dmg, velocity, charge time, duration, Rnds per minute, ect can be adjusted. And since there's no guideline, they have to take artistic liberty.

You have to ask your self. Do ACs feel like ACs? Do Lasers feel like Lasers? ect ect. For me.. the weapons do feel about right. Of course I have my opinions on how things could be different here or there. But to call them totally incompetent, as others have, is ridiculous.

With that being said. What should clans feel like? Carbon Copy weapons from IS, but just better? Or something that feels like Clan dogma that goes even into weapon development? I choose the latter.

But there are rules for many things and PGI just seems to pick and choose which they use, claiming "it fits the lore" when it suits them (Omni rules) and ignoring them when it doesn't (full customization for IS mechs).
If clan mechs are going to be limited in what can be customized then IS mechs should be too (even more so as it fits the lore). If they made IS mechs fully customizable because players enjoy making custom mechs then why should clan players not be given the same consideration? Do clan players not like to build custom mechs? Did i miss a poll?
(I personally don't like custom mechs but i hate a company treating people differently because it suits them more.)

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 18 January 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Ah okay, i got you now. Well you could say that every mech in MWO has redundant weapons in that case as noone fires them all all the time, unless you build a mech to only alpha strike.





But there are rules for many things and PGI just seems to pick and choose which they use, claiming "it fits the lore" when it suits them (Omni rules) and ignoring them when it doesn't (full customization for IS mechs).
If clan mechs are going to be limited in what can be customized then IS mechs should be too (even more so as it fits the lore). If they made IS mechs fully customizable because players enjoy making custom mechs then why should clan players not be given the same consideration? Do clan players not like to build custom mechs? Did i miss a poll?
(I personally don't like custom mechs but i hate a company treating people differently because it suits them more.)

Well they get more customizability with their OmniMechs, at least with weapons (swapping arm and side torsos for different hardpoints). Their BatteMechs (when released), will get the same options as IS BattleMechs. So I don't really see an issue.

With the outcry I've seen, it seems like most believe clans will be DOA or even behind the IS. But I don't believe this to be true. We're 5 months from their implementation. I want to see how things turn out and then return to the discussion of balance.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Taemien, on 18 January 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

So you've used a Daishi Prime in MWO already? Do you know what it even carries? Or even a Masakari Prime?

Again, you're a fringe element, they aren't going to balance this for you and you alone. Oh and by the way, I am a BT fan, I actually have a regular BT group I play with. And I'm fine with what they are doing here. But then I realize this isn't a turn based game. Many WikiWarriors don't understand that (if the shoe fits, wear it).

Thank you, for christ sakes, this is not TAble top!! differnent format differnt radical variables

[Wolfways]

BLOOD WOLF, on 18 January 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Thank you, for christ sakes, this is not TAble top!! differnent format differnt radical variables

Try telling PGI that.

[Larzous]

So... I have been mulling over if I ever want the clans. Granted i see there are some things you need to do to changes things however I have finally come up with a list of "major" complains that ruin the concept of clan mechs all together.

1) Crit Slot and Weight -- How can you adjust any of this and still use "stock" loadouts and still have mechs that are not over weight without removing weapons that those mechs would otherwise have for their variants? If your increasing the tonnage to offset the balance this would innately put a 100 ton mech for example at upwards of 110 tons (for example) -- So now your going to have to loose 100 tons of weapons or you going to lower our armor/engine/heatsinks? Which puts me into option #2

2) Lack of true customizability -- While I understand the ability to maybe not move crits or heatsinks around I find it unreasonable that based upon your article that we can not adjust armor or engine size. Being able to increase/decrease armor and upgrade our engins so we can move faster is vital in this online active game. Speed has a very high corelation to life, especially when padding buildings or just trying to dodge players shots, run away, or close the gap for those people using PPC and not ERPPCs. I think the custom Engine Size is one of the most likely customizable feature that has allowed people to truly bring and build the type of mech they want. Or strip off add that half ton of armor to bring AMS/ammo or a BAP and not have .5 tons laying around unused.

3) Clan XL and Death - This was not addressed? Clans have crit XLs in torsos and 3 engin crits kills. Are XL Clan mechs going to die because they loose a torso with only 2 XL crits? Will it take both toros's? or be treated as just you lost a toros, your XL your Fed... Because I don't remember many "standard engine" Clan mechs from my little experience with tabletop that I have. This can be a major issue.

[Taemien]

Larzous, on 18 January 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

1) Crit Slot and Weight -- How can you adjust any of this and still use "stock" loadouts and still have mechs that are not over weight without removing weapons that those mechs would otherwise have for their variants? If your increasing the tonnage to offset the balance this would innately put a 100 ton mech for example at upwards of 110 tons (for example) -- So now your going to have to loose 100 tons of weapons or you going to lower our armor/engine/heatsinks? Which puts me into option #2

There's a myriad of ways to balance a weapon that doesn't involve tonnage or crits. For example, the Clan ER PPC which is 6 tons and 2 crits could easily be balanced against an IS ER PPC. You could even give the CERPPC its full 15 damage. Both have similar range. Now the current ERPPC has a 4s cooldown at 2.5dps. The CERPPC could be given a much longer cooldown to decrease its DPS. Heat can be regulated so that continously firing the CERPPC isn't advisable. Someone also suggested giving it similar stats as the IS one. But to get the extra 5 dmg, it could have a small charge mechanism which would also increase the velocity in order to make those charged hits easier to manage. There's other ways to go about it and each weapon obviously is unique.

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2) Lack of true customizability -- While I understand the ability to maybe not move crits or heatsinks around I find it unreasonable that based upon your article that we can not adjust armor or engine size. Being able to increase/decrease armor and upgrade our engins so we can move faster is vital in this online active game. Speed has a very high corelation to life, especially when padding buildings or just trying to dodge players shots, run away, or close the gap for those people using PPC and not ERPPCs. I think the custom Engine Size is one of the most likely customizable feature that has allowed people to truly bring and build the type of mech they want. Or strip off add that half ton of armor to bring AMS/ammo or a BAP and not have .5 tons laying around unused.

This actually isn't true persay. Not being able to adjust armor and fixed pieces have been a staple of OmniMechs in the TT for a while and there are custom variants including canon custom variants that are quite deadly. Now here is a Myth that needs busted: Heatsinks and other components cannot be moved around. This is false. While you can't change DHS to SHS (can anyone explain to me why they'd want to?) you can move heatsinks around. Lets get a picture in here to show the Thor, a 70 ton clan OmniMech:



The areas in black are where you cannot modify the criticals. Meaning JJs have to stay on, and Endosteel has to stay where it is assigned. Anywhere that is blue or green is fair game to modify. You can add heatsinks (DHS are 2 crits for clan mechs). Also noticed I included a screen of two Thors. One is the Prime and the other is the C variant. You would be able to swap in arms and side torsos to give yourself some flexibility. Variant quirks are by CT chassis so if the Prime could torso twist a bit, you could swap in that right arm if you wanted extra energy slots.

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3) Clan XL and Death - This was not addressed? Clans have crit XLs in torsos and 3 engin crits kills. Are XL Clan mechs going to die because they loose a torso with only 2 XL crits? Will it take both toros's? or be treated as just you lost a toros, your XL your Fed... Because I don't remember many "standard engine" Clan mechs from my little experience with tabletop that I have. This can be a major issue.

There are some standard engine ones. But they are rare, and I think all of the initial clan line up have XL engines. I don't see this as an issue. It is a concern, but its a simple fact of making torso destruction deal 20 damage to the engine. Engines currently have 30HP. So losing one side torso wouldn't mean death. Losing the other would however. Which is by lore and design. I think that would be an acceptable compromise. Course.. if they feel Clan XL mechs are too fragile they could make it 10 damage per side, meaning two lost torsos means a quick death once the CT armor is off. But I doubt it would come to that. Especially when Clan BattleMechs become available.

[Wolfways]

Taemien, on 19 January 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Now here is a Myth that needs busted: Heatsinks and other components cannot be moved around. This is false. While you can't change DHS to SHS (can anyone explain to me why they'd want to?) you can move heatsinks around.

From Pauls post in the command chair:
"The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks" I.e. Cannot be moved.

Edited by Wolfways, 19 January 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[NRP]

I hope PGI releases at least some of the Clan mechs early (maybe for those of us who bought goldies?) so we can be part of a "beta test" to work out balancing issues.

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 19 January 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

From Pauls post in the command chair:
"The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks" I.e. Cannot be moved.

All mechs have to have 10 heatsinks. That's what minimum means. Specifically relating to the Uller which has 1 DHS in the CT, and two in the LT that cannot be moved. But none of the Uller variants have weapons in either torso (meaning no hardpoints anyway).

[Archmage105xx]

No the BIG advantage of IS was.... THEY FIRE AT ANYTHING while Clans DID NOT CHANGE THEIR TARGET ONCE THEY HAD ONE!
AND... Clans told IS they will attack, the IS called their defense and Clans send their forces...
so you can keep all the HUGE benefits of Clans without loosing balance.
Just consider 1t of Clan to 1.7t of IS!
DO NOT mix Clan and IS teams!
ONLY allow Clan or IS in a game to join if joining forces can roughly match!
And gimme back my cash until you made up the clans

And by the way...
THREE ENGINE HITS destroyed a mech...
Thats why IS with XL engine where so fragile compare to Clan, BUT each hit on an engine caused a CONSTANT heat build up of 5 points (so 5 SHS or 2.5 DHS not like here where you would need 3DHS since they only reduce heat by 1.4....)
The targetingcomputer the clan had allowed a SURE SHOT on ANY LOCATION!!! Be it Head, CT, Leg or whatever! Causing the aiming to be 4 points more difficult. well with 2D6 and +4 thats been hard but since Clan Pilots also used to be 2/3 instead of IS 3/4 Pilots and their Computer gaven em +1 on to hit it made a Chance for Clan Pilots to take our their target with a clean fire, while IS could not.

The Command Computer on IS was only working with C3-Slave, so to build up an efficient working net of Mechs working together those would need C3-Slave as well (boosting the aiming a bit).
Just here EVERY MECH OWNS C3+CC already since they can send their informations about targeting to any other mech. Just the "aiming bonus" aint seriously applied since here you can fire an LRM and you will never hit a Mech, in the real BT you couldnt fire if your missiles couldnt reach your target!

AND IS could salvage Clan-Tech!
build it into their Mechs!
They got the same Crit-Space, same Weight, just the Damage/Range was slightly reduced.
But here you get only Cash from a fight anyway, actually it might be better if you could "salvage" mechs equipment. Like a Priority-List if nothing is on anyones List its sold and changed to C-Bills. Otherwise you get the EQ for "Basic Price" (Mid Price between buy and sell) as your share.

Edited by Archmage105xx, 19 January 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Ace Selin, on 14 January 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

With reply to TheRabbi, so its easy to code the two queues, but what isn't easy is that you have (for example) 200 IS players waiting and only 50 Clan players, so the 150 players who don't have a match get to sit around for 15 min to have their shot at shooting Clan mechs or are forced to switch to playing Clans or go back to shooting IS mechs in the non FW side of the game?
Splitting queues wont happen... forget about the idea that it can.

We currently have 200 IS players waiting to play on, for instance, Alpine Peaks. 24 more get the green light. The next 24 go to, say, Mordor. The next 24 go to Rivet City. And so on.

Anyone that's been playing for more than two minutes is already accustomed to waiting, sometimes DAYS, to see the swoopy-cool new thing. Not news.

[Wolfways]

Taemien, on 19 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

All mechs have to have 10 heatsinks. That's what minimum means. Specifically relating to the Uller which has 1 DHS in the CT, and two in the LT that cannot be moved. But none of the Uller variants have weapons in either torso (meaning no hardpoints anyway).

Are you sure? Paul posted "a minimum" not "the minimum". That to me sounds like the minimum is whatever heat sinks the mech comes with as stock.

[wanderer]

elsie, on 17 January 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Sorry, you can't use the fluff of the clans losing at Tukkayid as a reason that the original clan mech/weapon specs shouldn't be changed. The only reason the clans lost was because FASA wanted them to lose. Then the game universe would be in a state that encouraged continued conflict between the factions, IS, clan, house, et al. It's not like they actually played that out to see what would happen.

elsie

Or....I could have been playing since the introduction of the Clans in TT, including the scenario pack battles for...you guessed it, those fights. You do know FASA, Catalyst, etc. put them out as actual gamebooks people could play to see if they could do it better, right? Including the Tukayyid scenarios and other examples of the early Clan invasion before it? Been there, played the scenarios, seen how it goes, why it goes, what happens, how you win as Clanners, how you win as the IS. Protip: When the Clans lose, it's usually due to being boxed into a fight where the opponent has numerical superiority and can hold down the relatively more fragile Clanner and hammer him while he's chewing on something else. When the Clanner wins, it's because he gets to take his fights 1v1 or better against the IS, including smart Clan players who use their superior stats to expose incautious IS players to crossfires where the IS player cannot effectively respond with similar focus fire, letting their superior firepower whittle things down to balanced numbers or worse, whereupon they can wipe up the inferior-tech IS force after it can no longer compensate with extra bodies for lesser equipment.

I'm not just talking fluff. I'm talking having run through fights like this uncounted number of times, because when the Clans came out, Battletech was huge as miniature games go. People did 3025 tech vs Clans. They did 3050 tech vs. Clans, and so on and so forth all the way through the Jihad campaigns where IS and Clan tech often ended up on the same machine as the two divergent tech trees began to merge.

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 19 January 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Are you sure? Paul posted "a minimum" not "the minimum". That to me sounds like the minimum is whatever heat sinks the mech comes with as stock.

If the mech has hardmounted heatsinks, they can't be moved. When a mech has heatsinks outside the engine, they are typically hard mounted on the omnimech. Some mechs have hard mounted heatsinks beyond the minimum like the Daishi has a heatsink in the left leg and the Masakari, which has one in both legs as well as four in the LT and one in the RT. But that doesn't mean more cannot be added and wherever the owner wishes to put them.

[wanderer]

Archmage105xx, on 19 January 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

No the BIG advantage of IS was.... THEY FIRE AT ANYTHING while Clans DID NOT CHANGE THEIR TARGET ONCE THEY HAD ONE!

Zellbrigen only applied until multiple 'Mechs fired on a single Clan target at the same time- and even then was rapidly discarded by some Clans for fighting "barbarians".

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And by the way...
THREE ENGINE HITS destroyed a mech...
Thats why IS with XL engine where so fragile compare to Clan, BUT each hit on an engine caused a CONSTANT heat build up of 5 points (so 5 SHS or 2.5 DHS not like here where you would need 3DHS since they only reduce heat by 1.4....)
The targetingcomputer the clan had allowed a SURE SHOT on ANY LOCATION!!! Be it Head, CT, Leg or whatever! Causing the aiming to be 4 points more difficult. well with 2D6 and +4 thats been hard but since Clan Pilots also used to be 2/3 instead of IS 3/4 Pilots and their Computer gaven em +1 on to hit it made a Chance for Clan Pilots to take our their target with a clean fire, while IS could not.

Basically, Clan XL's allowed for side torso survival because they didn't need to keep a fatal amount of engine parts in the side torsos- it's the first two layers of engine shielding. Basically, if an MWO engine is 30 points to destroy, the max damage killing a single side torso would be 20- though further damage to the other side or CT internally could easily finish the job. Honestly, as the engine loses HP, there should be a constant "heatup" effect for the target at 1-10, then twice as bad for 11-29 damage (since 30 destroys it).

Targeting computers cannot aim for the head, and do give a +4 on 2d6 to hit- but do NOT give a bonus of -1 to hit when making an aimed shot. Clan pilots were Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 as Regulars, IS Piloting 5, Gunnery 4- so yes, they were slightly better at making aimed shots when they tried. Weapons or other equipment with to-hit bonuses like pulse lasers couldn't be used for making aimed shots, either.

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The Command Computer on IS was only working with C3-Slave, so to build up an efficient working net of Mechs working together those would need C3-Slave as well (boosting the aiming a bit).
Just here EVERY MECH OWNS C3+CC already since they can send their informations about targeting to any other mech. Just the "aiming bonus" aint seriously applied since here you can fire an LRM and you will never hit a Mech, in the real BT you couldnt fire if your missiles couldnt reach your target!

Command consoles are not C3 Masters, which is what you're thinking about. Also, C3 meant you treated your target as being at the range of the nearest 'Mech in the network- an impossibility in MWO. We do get the ability to spot for free (barring ECM).

In MWO, I cannot somehow use my partner at 50m's crosshairs to line up a shot and have my 'Mech 500m away hit perfectly with my own guns instead, which would be about how C3 works.

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AND IS could salvage Clan-Tech!
build it into their Mechs!
They got the same Crit-Space, same Weight, just the Damage/Range was slightly reduced.

Actually, it worked exactly the same in an IS 'Mech as it would in a Clan one. No changes in stats as long as it was installed properly (which generally took a really good tech and some luck on the dice rolling.)

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But here you get only Cash from a fight anyway, actually it might be better if you could "salvage" mechs equipment. Like a Priority-List if nothing is on anyones List its sold and changed to C-Bills. Otherwise you get the EQ for "Basic Price" (Mid Price between buy and sell) as your share.

They actually used to have a salvage bonus added for killing 'Mechs with less damage. Making "salvage" anything else would mean a long wait while people figured out who got what as it stands.

[Archmage105xx]

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Zellbrigen only applied until multiple 'Mechs fired on a single Clan target at the same time- and even then was rapidly discarded by some Clans for fighting "barbarians".

Well if implemented right this could still work, like you cant get a lock on any other Mech before you get hit from other Mechs. That would be like setting a flag into the System for the locking process.

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Basically, Clan XL's allowed for side torso survival because they didn't need to keep a fatal amount of engine parts in the side torsos- it's the first two layers of engine shielding. Basically, if an MWO engine is 30 points to destroy, the max damage killing a single side torso would be 20- though further damage to the other side or CT internally could easily finish the job. Honestly, as the engine loses HP, there should be a constant "heatup" effect for the target at 1-10, then twice as bad for 11-29 damage (since 30 destroys it).

That heat build up should be implemented, and maybe even the occasional explosions.....

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Targeting computers cannot aim for the head, and do give a +4 on 2d6 to hit- but do NOT give a bonus of -1 to hit when making an aimed shot. Clan pilots were Piloting 4, Gunnery 3 as Regulars, IS Piloting 5, Gunnery 4- so yes, they were slightly better at making aimed shots when they tried. Weapons or other equipment with to-hit bonuses like pulse lasers couldn't be used for making aimed shots, either.

Yes sorry about that "head" mess up. That was our private rule at the tabletop as well as having slightly better pilots
But targetingcomputer gave a -1 to hit bonus if you did not make a targeted shot. Here that could look like a tiny assisstance from the computer with aiming or like a computer-calculated correction of the ankle fired at the target. (wow that would result in bend laser beams....)

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Command consoles are not C3 Masters, which is what you're thinking about. Also, C3 meant you treated your target as being at the range of the nearest 'Mech in the network- an impossibility in MWO. We do get the ability to spot for free (barring ECM).

In MWO, I cannot somehow use my partner at 50m's crosshairs to line up a shot and have my 'Mech 500m away hit perfectly with my own guns instead, which would be about how C3 works.

Well i guessed that this should have been that C3-Master and the slaves didnt get implemented yet.
In MWO you can only use ure partners crosshair for missilelocks. The bonus in to hit can not be implemented thats what we pilots are for

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Actually, it worked exactly the same in an IS 'Mech as it would in a Clan one. No changes in stats as long as it was installed properly (which generally took a really good tech and some luck on the dice rolling.)

Luck and good tech......
Guess i have to get all my old rule books out again so i dont mess up with old private rules and those basic "advanced" rules

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

They actually used to have a salvage bonus added for killing 'Mechs with less damage. Making "salvage" anything else would mean a long wait while people figured out who got what as it stands.

No that would not take a long waiting.
You could put your wishes in your list (mechlab-eq) for no one else to see.
Computer splits the loot not players pick it after fight.

[Taemien]

Archmage105xx, on 20 January 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Well if implemented right this could still work, like you cant get a lock on any other Mech before you get hit from other Mechs. That would be like setting a flag into the System for the locking process.

There's a small hypocrisy here. Clan targeting systems do not work any differently than IS ones. So why would they be functionally different here? I mean the reasoning behind doing this is so you can justify making Clan weapons like in the TT. just better copies of the IS versions. So.. why is a targeting system change ok, when a weapon system change isn't?

And to further delve into this point.. what would it accomplish? Encourages clanners not to use Streaks and LRMs. You don't need a target to fire on a mech. Unless you are speaking of weapon locking. And how does that work for weapons that require leading?

We've already discussed to death why Zellbrigen doesn't work. It only works if there is metrics involved to track this, which there are... but then you need a system that analyzes it on the spot. That is CPU and Network cycles added already to a crappy CryEngine netcode.

And assuming that works. You have a convoluted system involving rituals and rules that most of the players have never even heard of. Only the die hard Btech fans would know what to do. And thats if they are playing clan (they are pretty evenly split on which faction they like playing.

But it comes down to one thing. All these little balance suggestions (Zellbrigen, uneven teams, ect) just won't work. And here's why. Most players have 10-20 IS mechs sitting in their mechbay. If they choose clan... and lets say they are part of a unit that requires them to be clan, so they can't play both sides. You're going to tell them that their millions of cbills or thousands of MC spent, time spent on exp is wasted?

Nope.. thats not what PGI wants. Which is why we'll see more than likely... both sides using both types of mechs. This keeps customers happy. This keeps customers buying more mechs. And makes things a little easier to balance.. while at the same time they can bring us 28 new fresh weapons. And not simply copy and pasted weapons that take less crits and tons and have more range.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Taemien, on 20 January 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

But it comes down to one thing. All these little balance suggestions (Zellbrigen, uneven teams, ect) just won't work. And here's why. Most players have 10-20 IS mechs sitting in their mechbay. If they choose clan... and lets say they are part of a unit that requires them to be clan, so they can't play both sides. You're going to tell them that their millions of cbills or thousands of MC spent, time spent on exp is wasted?

Nope.. thats not what PGI wants. Which is why we'll see more than likely... both sides using both types of mechs. This keeps customers happy. This keeps customers buying more mechs. And makes things a little easier to balance.. while at the same time they can bring us 28 new fresh weapons. And not simply copy and pasted weapons that take less crits and tons and have more range.

no body's telling any customers they can't use what they brought, hell i wouldn't have brought a phoenix pack if i thought it would deny me of playing as a clanner and it's a very poor falicy if you truely believed that and/or knew anything about well designed games. and don't make me laugh about 28 fresh weapons, they'll be tweaked exsisting weapons and everyone knows it. did the playerbase retain and grew because SSrms had their trajection mechanics changed from turn on a dime into the CT to the bones aiming structure we have now? i don't think so. the novelty just wears off, weapon changes don't carry games.

but please go through this in detail why it’s not possible to, not be able to play both sides? You can only play one match at a time anyways…

So for an newbie account to login, you would be taken to a screen that says

IS – CLAN

when I select IS I’m taken to my IS mechbay with my IS store and inventory and when I set stuff up and press launch… no no sorry lets have playtime fun button I’m taken into the cue and see my team filling up with IS mechs and the enemy fills up with the same number {because there’s more IS online so MM finds IS vs IS easier to pool from} and then I have a match IS vs IS.

Then I start the second match, my team fills with 16 IS and I see 10 names on the other team, right different gameplay altogether the MM has found some clanners! Exciting, to the lore competition to beat another side a real enemy, something more involving than just mumbo jumbo randoms of a beta game.

Enjoying the totally different playstyle and my IS team focus fire to just win before they could leg and xl engine blow out enough us “oh boo woo I was the second taken out like it’s a new and horrible experience that never happened in MWO befor. better QQ on the forums that life isn’t fair and teams are horribly unbalanced” I then log out and find the faction screen again

IS – CLAN

I log into clan because even though the skills of a greater number of players beat the OP equipment in the last match I’m a delusional newb and have migrated to the awesome team. oh I didn’t by a clan pack… no matter there’ll be 4 trial mechs just like it is for every other newbie logging in. {will proberbly be the kitfox, nova, summoner and direwolf} theres also an clan mechlab and a clan currency and store. When I press the play button I’ll first have a match and watch as ten vs ten comes up and everything is balanced but a little fast for everyone to be killed, I read in all chat it’s no worse than a lords vs lords match of very quick kills, so it’s no different than the balance the game’s had for a year or more now. Cool it’s like being with the top players so I launch again, all cocky that I’m in a superior mech watch 16 vs our 10 because there are enough IS mechs online to have this style of match. then 2 and a half mins in I’m destroyed in a single blast by 10 mechs. How is it my fault that I ran out to where 10 mechs are!? More QQ on the forums to add which is totally not like the 12vs12 newb whinning like MWO is stuck with now. then i switch back to IS which gives me more body gaurds and longer survivability with lesser tech. an eassier pace of gaming but i have a choice to stay and max my mechs or play as something else and level their, at least 2 as more intrest in choices and investments so i'll be staying for a long time without the need of make my mech magic module leveling systems.

Additional; yeah you’re wondering about premades and private lobbies right? Well there’s this thing called chat… you tell people you’re logging out to play as the other faction, you could open another lobby to do it or just long into your other faction and send invites to premade up. Chat would also have your faction banner on the side of your name telling everyone whom you belong to which would include what house-clan you’d be in. these names would disappear and re-appear as different factions to swap over to become eligible to play as a team. Just like how people belong to 2 or more merc units and switch in and out of TS3 channels. It’s not that hard for the players to do it, nobody whinged I can’t play with my friends and nobody wouldn’t have access to everything they brought.

In otherwords the game wouldn’t stay mediocre except for a cooldown variation here and an missile stagger fire there. and that's your lot for a year whilst we lie about CW coming out again. MWO would evolve to have so much more meaning and purpose to play without CW {which won’t be started on for at least another year according to Russ} and people will be getting what was advertised and paid for, something alluring to faction play and an “invasion.” the company gets respect back for treating it’s IP with respect and shows signs of using it in more than name only. not just going for the money and at the very least give an impression that CW is in the making and prolongs the life of the game. you'd have two factions to master if you're hardcore and that's all the staying power needed, not more damn modules and mechs for little/no changes in gameplay. it would shut up haters that MWO will be nothing but a derp shooting arena game. Win-win for everyone in the long run which is supposed to be the priority right? Or do we not care that the servers close because everyone got bored with random derping for years and nothing happening as well as the list of lies and back peddling growing?

Seriously this migration and split cue scare mongering at most means people might complain, “I’m bored with being teamed against one side and haven’t played against people of my own faction for ages” the quality of matches wouldn’t be any worse than what it is now and people still play on. if the cue only has 12 of XX faction players on at any one time it’s time to close servers down. As much as haters would love it MWO isn’t that starved… yet.

You know this system works like how so many conventional popular FPS games have done it for decades? IT CAN’T MAKE MWO ANY WORSE! Why is MWO the special exception for integrating everything into one giant mess of failed promises? Under the current scheme 2 things could happen;

Over nerf

break stock mechs with over nerfs {like changing crits + tonnage or double cooldowns with more GH on top} and possibly render hopeless the best possible builds for some chassis {low armoured and low speed mechs DOA} would mean the ultimate IP betrayal clan purchasers up in arms for all the junk they got suckered into. Clans will be in but name only like coca cola and will earn as much respect. a few chassis join the meta lordz and the mediocrity of the sinking game. MM wouldn’t be able to keep tech bases separate even if it wanted too and A few clans being fielded either side amongst all the IS would create a farce. Lobbies would have a use but with nothing more to interest players as the new mech intake offered less evolution then intreast would wain and pugz would get bored and leave, the game would be on overgold clan life support and CW wouldn’t have enough of a playerbase to warrant it. The game would drain and die.

Under nerf

screw up the nerf process {inevitable with paul} and clans will still be OP under 12vs12. Mixed teams would create a farce. although trying to sell “the invasion” like it’s one side vs another… even though it looks like the game’s not going in that direction at all and not for years yet. A total {scrap} contradiction between 2 years of marketing and the actual product for a year so at least by what the devs say. Clans will be in but name only like coca cola and will earn as much respect . people will use clans and others will have a point when it’s P2W or more like clan 2 win. Teams made of all clan tech will end matches too fast and it will be the only choice, run clan or none at all, it will be literally pot luck to have an all IS session just to get in a decent game. Lobbies will be mandatory and the newbies-pugz will dry up. Game will drain last players and die.

The only reason this is being discussed at all is because the devs can’t build this game good enough to warrant it’s existence in the future clan implementation or otherwise. Their rep and resume explains as much that they don’t know what they’re doing. They haven’t a clue how to expand and incorporate such features to give the game meaning and a life long enough to retain enough interest to prove CW can be worthwhile and functional. We all hoped UI.2 would allow them this development flexibility but the current plans suggest otherwise. They can’t even build a cohesive mechlab with it, wasted real estate, terrible mapping and shrunken info if any at all. {click fest to understand what your mech’s made of hardpoint wise}.

It’s poor game designers on a shoestring budget because the heads don’t use profits to invest back into the game but instead build other projects and let this one wilt and die, minimal effort for most pre order profit. I wanted to believe differently but this whole cornerstone “clans” being rushed out like this, 5 months now and ticking, proves there’s no care or quality to be found here at all but they still expect top prices for addons… which they don’t know what it will even be. If all the system I’ve just gone over were proven to be functioning and in the game i wouldn’t have any such concerns and no problem spending the money. However they’ve rushed without a clue what they’re selling and their track record for plans and delivering is a mess. So I know it won’t happen and I know where my money is staying… safe. If only PGI could prove otherwise…

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 20 January 2014 - 10:41 PM.

[blighty]

I AM SAYING THAT WE CAN HAVE CLAN MECHS - WITHOUT COMPROMISE

Well - I really dont think you're going to be able to balance clan mechs.

Nope, not one bit - if you did it would be pretty much nerving them so much you might as well not do it. Clan are totally unfair, make it clear and make it part of the game. Don't reduce the weapons to naught, keep them clan baby.

How tho..

Why dont you take a different approach.

IS
Create a system of reward for inner sphere pilots that kill clan mechs. A rating that sits next to there name in player list. It might be a K/D ratio, it might be another representation, it might show kills of a certain type of Clan pilot too (see below)

Perhaps even a special leader-board that shows this.

Essentially what I'm saying is that if you reward the inner sphere pilots with a unique kill count or rating, that tells the players that yes, defeating a clan mech is greater than just any old mech, and make this have special meaning that will be clearly a sign of skill, then the desire to achieve those kills is much greater.

It needs to become a hallmark of skill, it needs to be important - clan killers are special pilots.

CLAN
Also, I like the reduced tonnage for clan mechs idea - I believe you could incorporate end of match rewards depending on how this might be implemented. This might be a way to reward a clan honer system, not a kill total of IS mechs like mentioned before - that should be IS unique, but perhaps a simple system of how honorable the clan pilot is.

This might work like this (after playtesting it of course!)

• You can select 12v12, 12v10, or 12v8 battles
  
• 12v12 reduces your honor a lot.
  
• 12v10 keeps your honer stable, slightly reducing it if it was high, slightly raising it if it was low
  
• 12v8 increases your honer a lot.

This can also be turned into a leader board, and you can show this next to thier name.


As mentioned above, IS pilots might be rewarded more for killing Honorable clansmen.

Basically create a self balancing system of reward and recognition.

Basically this rewards all players, CLAN and IS, bye recognizing the superiority of Clan Mechs, not shying away from it.

You can stick to lore perfectly this way, and include some really cool lore type rewards based around this IS clan killer, and honorable Clan warrior.

This fits really great with expanding out past 3050 - When the IS get technical equality, because at the same time, clan stopped being honorable. You can revert those game to a normal system! Well, one thing at a time I guess.

Edited by blighty, 21 January 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[Taemien]

GalaxyBluestar, on 20 January 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

but please go through this in detail why it’s not possible to, not be able to play both sides? You can only play one match at a time anyways…

Assuming we have the one pilot system and going by how they said factions would sort of work. Here's the issue:

You choose a faction. Which isn't IS or Clan. Its actually 6 Houses and However amount of clans they want to put in might be 1, 4, or 6 or whatever. When you fight for that faction you earn loyalty. You don't earn loyalty with other factions while with that particular faction. They've even hinted at losing loyalty with factions you fight against. So if you're playing IS and Clan, and you like to switch between the two (and if I'm not mistaken, I believe that costs MC to do, but that could be older news and obsolete.. so don't quote me on it), you have to hope that your opponents aren't Clan if you're playing IS, or IS if you're playing Clan.. or rather specifically the faction you're playing on both sides.

That's assuming a one pilot system. If they allow for us to have more than one. Then great you can have a Spheroid and a Clanner. Problem is.. are they going to allow purchased mechs on both? Nope I doubt it. Thats entirely my point. See.. I have this issue on Planetside 2. I'd love to play another faction. But purchased weapons do NOT transfer. So I have to repurchase them with SC (like MC), or Cert into them (like cbills, but takes a long time). But of course I've already made that point.

Having more than one account. I don't think I need to go into this. Obviously you can't use mechs bought on one account on another.


Let me ask you this one. Why should I not be able to use a Catapult without gimping my team if I decide to play with my Clan buddies? Why shouldn't I be able to use a Thor when playing with my IS side? Thats the dillemma PGI wants to solve. And you know what? I support them on it. Why shouldn't a clanner who decides he just wants to use his AS7-DDC he's been playing with for the last year be allowed to do so? Why shouldn't I be able to use a Daishi to send the Dracs running when playing for House Davion?

Think about it from a business standpoint. You have hardcore BT fans which make up a very small minority of the playerbase. Then its split between people supporting it and people who are not, and there's a very good chance they'll just be disgruntled and keep playing (those who say are quitting are bluffing, some of them said they'd quit over ECM and then appear a month later with an overlord tag lol). While the majority of other players have dozens of more mechs to add to their collections.

So you tell me what they are likely to do? Say what you will about big business and all that occupy BS. But they do have to keep the lights on.