1978 replies to this topic

[RainbowC22]

Valheru, on 16 January 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

I still cannot figure out how the clans can keep their flavor if a single innersphere mech can go toe to toe with a clan mech. If anyone clan explain it to me without resorting to exceptional situations (i..e setting off pentaglycerin with your exploding hatchetman, tackling madcats with your triple strength myomer, etc...), please do.

There are many ways to fix this! IS vs IS only, and Clan vs Clan only. or 12 IS vs 4 Clan.

Even better! they can't balance it because it isn't singleplayer like the other Mechwarrior games. So MAKE a singleplayer! No no no, wait! EVEN BETTER! You can make it an MMO! You can have IS and Clan being factions, open world with AI Mechs around to fight and salvage for weapons, raiding bases for more weapons and Mechs, 'Raids' being big cities defended by AI and Player Mechs. So much Awesome!......

But that will NEVER happen... So sad....

Edited by RainbowC22, 17 January 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[wanderer]

Valheru, on 16 January 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

Going through the pages it looks like there are a lot more supporters for keeping the clans the way they're supposed to be and introducing alternative solutions rather than trying to shoehorn the balancing of the clantech into team death match and making clan tech no different from i.s. tech. In my mind it is no different from zergs vs protoss ... balance through distinct character attributes and numerical superiority.

I still cannot figure out how the clans can keep their flavor if a single innersphere mech can go toe to toe with a clan mech. If anyone clan explain it to me without resorting to exceptional situations (i..e setting off pentaglycerin with your exploding hatchetman, tackling madcats with your triple strength myomer, etc...), please do.

If we continue down this path, then we shall go down the path, but I will acknowledge these mechs as nothing but Clan in Name Only.

Generally, a single 3025-era tech Battlemech vs. a Clan one is going to get shredded. Not always, but the IS 'Mech has a short lifespan, minimal firepower vs. the Clanner (who has all the advantages of 3050-era tech stacked on superior weaponry). Ambush predator tactics are basically the plan, as giving the Clan 'Mech even one free good shot is a serious advantage. Again, though- a Clan 'Mech can only -take- as much damage as any other 'Mech of the same weight class.

Let's review, speaking of "How do Clanners die?" Side note: Most Clan 'Mechs are built with low-slung arms and those arms pack some dakka. This does not a healthy hill-humper make, though they do quite well with dealing with 'Mechs cresting a hill or on vertical engagements.

Kit Fox- dies as fast as a Spider. Put some Streaks up it's tailpipes. Done. Notably, it's considerably slower than a Spider based on it's engine rating, which should put it's top speed around that of a Commando instead. Normally lacking in jump capacity as well, but as at least one config comes with ECM standard, this will likely be what you see sneaking around like a ninja and hosing things up with whatever it can bring to bear safely.

Puma- It's an upgunned Jenner. Same problem, same solution. On the other hand, less vulnerable to legging from LRMs due to the "roof" torso arrangement and attacks from above will have good odds of torso hits rather than attempts to leg it. If ECM capable, this will easily fill the "light sniper" slot for Clan forces as well since it can pack either minimally a single major ballistic and/or multiple big energy weapons, making it a cross between the Raven and Jenner for combat purposes.
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Nova- the Clan jumper medium. Shoot the arms instead of the hump, but this thing can jump as well, making it the Hunchback-P on crack with no problems hitting targets on the vertical. It's actually scarier to me than it's slightly heavier cousin below.

Stormcrow- Slightly bigger, doesn't jump, and depending on how it gets it's parts mixed, favors energy or missiles. The bad part: Like most Clanners, it tends to mount those guns low, and the lack of jump capacity will hurt it against the 55-tonners like the Griffin or Shadow Hawk, even though it'll likely outgun them.

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Summoner- It and the Timber Wolf can pack a wide chunk of firepower, but this one's the more mobile of the two, since jump jets are "standard" on one. Has the damage tolerance of a Cataphract. Likely going to be the go-to for poptarting, but will have to expose it's torso to fire over cover (see below).

Timber Wolf- the groundpounding heavy. Bulkier than a Catapult but similar profile...only it's arm mounts have that low-to-the-ground swing that makes them less than ideal for hill-humping. On the other hand, the classic Catapult style missile pods for firing over ridges instead, and it pretty much can mount whatever you darn well please and get it where you want to go at a good Clan-XL powered clip. If we get to play with config-D parts, this thing can be a Catapult with 10 extra tons to play with and lighter missile launchers AND a secondary battery most IS 'Mechs would be happy with as a primary. Voted "Most likely to be the guy who dumps 80 LRMs on your head and laughs." by Wanderer.

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Warhawk- broad, flat top you could likely stand on- and an equally easy target to shoot, but provides no protection to the real targets, it's big arm mounts. On the other hand, likely to have most LRM fire absorbed by it's torso armor as a result, meaning you'll have to deal with it's guns with direct-fire. Like most Clanners, it'll have trouble clearing it's primary weaponry since you'll see that barn roof it calls a torso and have a clean, easy shot at it before even the TORSO mounts are clear to fire on the thing. The torso being a fire magnet will likely meant that most Warhawks will go down shooting, and the heavy arm-focus will mean it'll be able to swing those guns around at lights, too.

Dire Wolf- remember how easy a target an Atlas is? This one is almost as bad as the Warhawk with that same "roof" top, but being 100 tons, the overall profile will be a larger target. Just one capable of mounting more and better guns and lasting long enough to use them even when being focused on. A Dire Wolf that doesn't end up killing someone would be a very rare situation indeed even in a best-case scenario...just don't let it get you alone in a tunnel.

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[Taemien]

Wanderer has an interesting assement.

Though I would like to point out that not all of the Madcat variants will have those missile racks. If you'd like to see what the Madcat might look like on other variants, check out how it was done in MWLL. Its a little weird to see cannons up there, but oddly enough it still looks like a Madcat. So some of its variants (depending on how the person sets it up), might not have the disadvantage of the low arms.

See.. some people think that the clans will be DOA just because they can't adjust engines, but they fail to realize the true tactical advantage of swapping out limbs and side torsos to get the hardpoints how you want them. You can make effective hill snipers by using the torsos in the Madcat for example. Using a Madcat A as a base, you can swap in a B or C right arm (both have a ballistic slot) for a gauss rifle and use a couple of ER Medium Lasers from the left torso (3 energy slots), and one from the CT. If you want to get a little closer, use the D and throw on the B or C's right arm for a UAC20 and put 2 streak srm6s on each torso, and some other energy weapon on the left arm.

I kind of question the capability of some people in the Mechlab by what they say in this thread. It seems like they do one of two things. Put as many as certain weapon as they can depending on how good it is perceived to be. Make it heat neutral as possible, and then drop it in a match. Or instead they use a FOTM config that someone cooked up and wrecked face in and then everyone copied that.

Whereas I'm looking at how they are doing omni's and looking at being able to do concepts I can't even attempt on a current BattleMech. But then again the 'current meta' thats changed from month to month never really bothered me and some of my configs that I developed in Beta continued to work throughout live (except for mechs that haven't been released until after).

[wanderer]

Another point I'd aim at regarding IS vs. Clan balance is the almost counter-intuitive LACK of customization that's going on with them.

That is, you won't be able to pay C-bills and strip/add Endosteel, Ferro, change an engine, or even rearrange or reinforce armor. Nor will there be "dynamic structure" for stuff that takes up crits- they're hard-locked into a Clan 'Mech, meaning you can't squeeze those endosteel slots into some useless location so you can fit that UAC/20 you always wanted. That is, every Clan 'Mech will have predictable weak points that cannot be easily compensated for, other than a somewhat flexible weapon and heatsink layout.

Giving them variations on the IS theme for weaponry would weaken them still further into a blend of tapicoa mecha-pudding that not only lacks the advantages a Clan 'Mech should arrive with, but adds critical weaknesses on top of them. Some designs, like the Kit Fox will actually die at about the same rate as a Locust, thanks to minimal armor. The Summoner suffers similar armoring weaknesses- for example, it'll have a 54-point frontal CT armor, with 44 on the side torsos. Most IS 'Mechs carry a thicker armor layer across the torso by comparison- signficantly so in the CT case, and even the legs barely carry 75% of maximum protection on the Summoner. You will know precisely how much firepower it takes to crack any chassis when they're on the field, where it's weakest, every time. Fortunately, most Clan 'Mechs are near maximal armor- which is a good thing considering!

Fortunately, they've been pretty good about choosing initial designs that don't have huge amounts of fixed equipment- although the Puma will suffer as it's not only got Endosteel, Ferro, AND an XL engine taking up fixed space, the poor thing has to carry that CT mounted flamer forever. Ah well, at least it'll always be able to blind it's prey...

[Taemien]

wanderer, on 17 January 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Another point I'd aim at regarding IS vs. Clan balance is the almost counter-intuitive LACK of customization that's going on with them.

That is, you won't be able to pay C-bills and strip/add Endosteel, Ferro, change an engine, or even rearrange or reinforce armor. Nor will there be "dynamic structure" for stuff that takes up crits- they're hard-locked into a Clan 'Mech, meaning you can't squeeze those endosteel slots into some useless location so you can fit that UAC/20 you always wanted. That is, every Clan 'Mech will have predictable weak points that cannot be easily compensated for, other than a somewhat flexible weapon and heatsink layout.

I'm going to disagree here. First ES and FF only take 7 crits each. So you're not losing alot of crits that you could use elsewhere. And second, there's plenty of options to allow for that 'UAC20' you always wanted.

The Thor for example has 8 crits free in the side torsos. So the D variant side torsos would be able to mount a UAC20 each. The Madcat cannot mount a UAC20 in the sides, but can in the arms depending on variant. The Daishi could eventually mount them if we get into HAG's much much later one, but none of its base configs have ballistics in the torso.. they're all mounted in the arm.

You just got to actually look at the mechs. I recommend everyone here to download Solaris Skunk Werks. This way you can Open a Clan Prime mech and click the criticals tab, and then select from a drop down which variant you wish to look at. It will show you what equipment each variant has so you have an idea of what hard points are available, and the sections in black are the fixed ones. You could even use the program to kind of pre-configure mechs prior to them coming out. You know you can't change armor, internals, engines, or heatsink type, so you can just manage weapons and extra heatsinks to see what kind of things you can come up with. It will even give you a cbill cost that will probably be roughly what MWO has so you can even know how much to save up.

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Giving them variations on the IS theme for weaponry would weaken them still further into a blend of tapicoa mecha-pudding that not only lacks the advantages a Clan 'Mech should arrive with, but adds critical weaknesses on top of them. Some designs, like the Kit Fox will actually die at about the same rate as a Locust, thanks to minimal armor. The Summoner suffers similar armoring weaknesses- for example, it'll have a 54-point frontal CT armor, with 44 on the side torsos. Most IS 'Mechs carry a thicker armor layer across the torso by comparison- signficantly so in the CT case, and even the legs barely carry 75% of maximum protection on the Summoner. You will know precisely how much firepower it takes to crack any chassis when they're on the field, where it's weakest, every time. Fortunately, most Clan 'Mechs are near maximal armor- which is a good thing considering!

I don't think a 10 dmg ER Large Laser is 'IS Themed'. And making Clan weapons balanced in a way so that IS isn't obsolete doesn't mean they lose flavor. I mean they're defining clan flavor pretty much from the ground up. There is no different way to fire a Clan weapon in BattleTech than an IS one. You roll 2d6 or 2d6. So they have to take some artistic liberties here. Just like lasers don't do instant pinpoint damage like they have in other titles. There hasn't been much complaint about that here. Each game has a way of defining it. At least its not like MW3 where the difference between a CER PPC and an ER PPC was crits and tons, they had the same range and damage (as did all other weapons between the two techs).

My advice here is don't condemn it before you try it. Whats popular and concieved as powerful changes from month to month as it is with IS stuff. Clan's going to get a big amount of play when its released, both by clanners who've been waiting for their toys for 2 years, and by House peeps who want to check out the new weapons. I mean we're effectively getting 28 brand new weapons. I still don't see why anyone wouldn't embrace that fact over just getting the same stuff, just better.

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Fortunately, they've been pretty good about choosing initial designs that don't have huge amounts of fixed equipment- although the Puma will suffer as it's not only got Endosteel, Ferro, AND an XL engine taking up fixed space, the poor thing has to carry that CT mounted flamer forever. Ah well, at least it'll always be able to blind it's prey...

In the end I don't think this matters much. IS omnis get this a little worse. Owens can't use DHS for example. No Clan mech uses SHS except for their BattleMechs, which would be able to convert them anyway. And how about them Clan BattleMechs? Hunchback II-C, Supernova, and Annihilator. You will be able to modify these as you do your current mechs. All three of those mechs would be a nightmare on the battlefield even if the Clan weapons were the same as IS ones.

In fact I think the only mistake PGI is making is releasing only Omni's for the Clans. They should have at least one or two battlemechs in there too. But we do know the Hunchback II-C will be coming later. Its hinted at in the Hunchback Founder's video. That ******* can use Jumpjets lol.

[Wolfways]

I'd love to see how people are going to save weight to put extra ammo in for ballistics, as i doubt many players use stock ammo amounts.
Actually, without being able to put in Endo for more DHS/ammo i don't even see how stock configurations are going to be playable.

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 17 January 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

I'd love to see how people are going to save weight to put extra ammo in for ballistics, as i doubt many players use stock ammo amounts.
Actually, without being able to put in Endo for more DHS/ammo i don't even see how stock configurations are going to be playable.

I really have no idea what you're point is. Are you trying to say IS stock mechs will be better than Clan ones?

Here.. load up Skunk Werks and show me a configuration you are having issues with. I'll go in and make a change to make it viable with enough ammo. You can use the export to text/clipboard function and then copy it using the code tag <> to post it here. You can also use a screenshot of the critical tab.

[elsie]

wanderer, on 16 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Most "utterly beat" IS forces in lore were 3025-tech designs. The equivalent would be what happens when you take a respectable force of normal customs with practiced players against an all-PUG-newbie-stock group that only gets 3025 tech in MWO. That is, the former are competent with and using solid, optimized designs vs. opponents using anything but and no idea what the other side could do in the first place, a process that repeated itself because early on, very little survived long enough to bring back any data whatsoever to the next unit to be mauled.

If you'd like a more accurate prediction of what happens with MWO-era tech vs. Clan tech, I'd refer you to Tukkayid, where the ComStar forces were mostly of a similar level of 3050-era technology.

Comstar won, by the way. Numerical superiority outweighed the Clan tech advantage in most cases, save notably the Wolves- who had the brains to take it into account, tricked the ComStar forces into treating them as if they had made the same errors as the other Clan forces, and beat them. That is, given superior numbers, the ComStar forces repeatedly lured the Clan forces into bad matchups and despite being mauled in the process, destroyed their Clan opponents and won. And it wasn't even HUGE numerical advantage. Just the brains to use that advantage to wear down the Clan force, get out of the line of fire when damaged and let a fresh 'Mech start tanking the hits, or simply by overwhelming single targets with a well-directed volume of fire.

Let someone have that Clan-level weaponry and gear if their force is starting down 5 'Mechs vs their opponent's 8, or ten vs. the opponent's 16. I can guarantee you that skill or not, even with maximum armor a Clan 'Mech is going to go down FAST if it's caught between multiple opponents. Firepower or not, a Clanner dies just as fast as anything else in the same weight class- it just bites harder while doing so. And the snowball will be already rolling down the hill as fast as fast can be in the process when they do die.

Never mind what the numerical advantage does in games like Conquest, where a 10-man group is gambling if it splits more than once that the IS side doesn't blob together and smash half their force, then mop up the rest while easily capping points as fast as the Clanners can defend.

I've played both sides of the coin. I've gotten the satisfaction from watching people who believed the same myths you do about Clanner forces have their egos shattered, and I've had my back pushed to the wall as a Clan force and come out on top by knowing that said forces have strengths AND weaknesses, not some kind of blind belief that because individual Clan 'Mechs outperform individual IS ones that the Clan unit is automatically superior to the IS one. This is untrue, in decades of play- and I've played since the first months a Clan tech readout for forces existed.

It is the myth that you, and you alone and your opponent matter. No. It's the guy who's smart enough to lure that medium around the corner so I smash it with AC/20 fire, and when it focuses on me, stabs it in the back with his scout's lasers and finishes it off. The spotter who keeps that assault TAG-targeted while dozens of LRMs rip it's face off. The one who doesn't wander off in mid-fight to chase the red dot like a cat on crack and sticks with you to find something you beat down together, completes the objective, puts the "Win" on the top of your screen vs. "LOL, I GOTS A KILL!"

The ability of "team" is the true skill-based combat in MWO. "Team" is what distinguises PUG from premade, "Company" or "Lance" vs. "bigger mob" or "smaller mob". And a larger team is a powerful advantage, powerful enough to negate an incautious force with superior technology, or weight, or firepower. For a smaller team, it becomes even more imperative to hone that skill of teamwork, because a smaller and numerically inferior team is one that is more easily shattered.

Indeed, putting Clan tech and numbers on par with IS tech simply removes the entire difference between them. There is no need for better teamwork than before, nor any real alteration of strategy for a Clan force vs. an IS one with this approach. One is the other with a slightly different coat, rather than, say, being the Clan "Protoss" to the IS "Terran".

Sorry, you can't use the fluff of the clans losing at Tukkayid as a reason that the original clan mech/weapon specs shouldn't be changed. The only reason the clans lost was because FASA wanted them to lose. Then the game universe would be in a state that encouraged continued conflict between the factions, IS, clan, house, et al. It's not like they actually played that out to see what would happen.


elsie

[Wolfways]

Taemien, on 17 January 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

I really have no idea what you're point is. Are you trying to say IS stock mechs will be better than Clan ones?

Here.. load up Skunk Werks and show me a configuration you are having issues with. I'll go in and make a change to make it viable with enough ammo. You can use the export to text/clipboard function and then copy it using the code tag <> to post it here. You can also use a screenshot of the critical tab.

I play mechs with stock weapon configurations (i.e. JM6-S with 2xAC2, 2xAC5, 2xML; CPLT-K3 with 2xERPPC, 2xML, 2xMG, etc.) and the only way to make them playable is to fit Endo and/or reduce engine size to save weight to add ammo, or DHS for energy-heavy mechs.
If clan mechs already have Endo/Ferro which can't be changed and i can't change the engine size how do i fit enough ammo/DHS to make the mech playable in MWO?

Edited by Wolfways, 17 January 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[RainbowC22]

Wolfways, on 17 January 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

I play mechs with stock weapon configurations (i.e. JM6-S with 2xAC2, 2xAC5, 2xML; CPLT-K3 with 2xERPPC, 2xML, 2xMG, etc.) and the only way to make them playable is to fit Endo and/or reduce engine size to save weight to add ammo, or DHS for energy-heavy mechs.
If clan mechs already have Endo/Ferro which can't be changed and i can't change the engine size how do i fit enough ammo/DHS to make the mech playable in MWO?

you DON'T. That is the point. You don't get control of Heatsinks at all, so Double or Single doesn't matter, it's locked into the Mech. Same with Endo/ferro Crit spots, you can't pick where they are, so you have to deal with it. That is how the Clan Mechs will work. Instead of changing Armor, Heatsinks, Engine, ECM, or anything else, instead you get the ability to buy new arms (about 3-4mill C-bill each) from a different Variant of the same Mech that might have the hard points you want so you can put any kinda weapon on any clan mech.

Edited by RainbowC22, 17 January 2014 - 08:44 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

RainbowC22, on 17 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

you DON'T. That is the point. You don't get control of Heatsinks at all, so Double or Single doesn't matter, it's locked into the Mech. Same with Endo/ferro Crit spots, you can't pick where they are, so you have to deal with it. That is how the Clan Mechs will work. Instead of changing Armor, Heatsinks, Engine, ECM, or anything else, instead you get the ability to buy new arms (about 3-4mill C-bill each) from a different Variant of the same Mech that might have the hard points you want so you can put any kinda weapon on any clan mech.

Well lets see here...

1. Clan FF/ES take up only half the slots IS FF/ES take up.

2. Heatsink type can not be changed, but why would you want to? (You can add more though.)

3. Things like ECM, Jump Jets, and Active Probe can be added.

Well, this is all true in TT any way.

Edited by Nathan K, 17 January 2014 - 10:44 PM.

[Wolfways]

RainbowC22, on 17 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

you DON'T. That is the point. You don't get control of Heatsinks at all, so Double or Single doesn't matter, it's locked into the Mech. Same with Endo/ferro Crit spots, you can't pick where they are, so you have to deal with it. That is how the Clan Mechs will work. Instead of changing Armor, Heatsinks, Engine, ECM, or anything else, instead you get the ability to buy new arms (about 3-4mill C-bill each) from a different Variant of the same Mech that might have the hard points you want so you can put any kinda weapon on any clan mech.

Exactly. Stock weapon configurations will be impossible to play, unless you don't mind running out of ammo in the first few minutes of a match or constantly overheating when using lasers.

[Roland]

RainbowC22, on 17 January 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

You don't get control of Heatsinks at all, so Double or Single doesn't matter, it's locked into the Mech.

Are there any clan mechs which actually run single heat sinks?

I had thought that the clans had basically just moved beyond single heat sinks, especially since their doubles only take two slots.

[FupDup]

Roland, on 17 January 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Are there any clan mechs which actually run single heat sinks?

I had thought that the clans had basically just moved beyond single heat sinks, especially since their doubles only take two slots.

There are some occasional second-line Battlemechs (not Omnis) like the Piranha.

[Lucian Nostra]

They really need to make it so that if your pledged to an IS house than your clan machines are grayed out, same with pledged to a clan your IS mechs are greyed out.

That is if they are still going to stick to the idea of pledging... Lets face it, a lot of us clanners are not going to be dropping in IS mechs anymore once clan mechs finally hit anyway.. I really wanted a Boar's head but what's the point when in June the Dire Wolf will hit and Ill have just wasted $40 on a BH?

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 17 January 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

I play mechs with stock weapon configurations (i.e. JM6-S with 2xAC2, 2xAC5, 2xML; CPLT-K3 with 2xERPPC, 2xML, 2xMG, etc.) and the only way to make them playable is to fit Endo and/or reduce engine size to save weight to add ammo, or DHS for energy-heavy mechs.
If clan mechs already have Endo/Ferro which can't be changed and i can't change the engine size how do i fit enough ammo/DHS to make the mech playable in MWO?

Well many clan mechs (Loki, Madcat, Daishi, Masakari), have redundant weapons. They actually cannot even fire them all in a single turn in the TT. Nor would they be able to fire them in MWO (and not because of heat penalties either). So what you'd have to do is take some weapons off and slap on more DHS.

The masakari is a good example of this. Take the LRM10 and the ammo off and slap on more DHS. Put the left arm PPCs on left click and the right arm PPCs on right click. You now have a devastating fire platform for very little effort.

You have to understand that the clanners did like most people in MWO do. They took a chassis, put ES and DHS on, then a fast engine (their Heavies run at 80ish kph), and then slapped on as many weapons as possible. Their stock configs are decent enough to function on their own.

But I am going to have to say this. Your point is rather moot. You're style of play, while interesting, is considered fringe. They are not going to balance around -you- and they shouldn't. Its up to the players to figure out how to modifiy a mech so that it is a competent fighter on the battlefield. Player skill doesn't start when the match starts. It starts in the mechlab.

Again... welcome to MechWarrior.

[Wolfways]

Taemien, on 18 January 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well many clan mechs (Loki, Madcat, Daishi, Masakari), have redundant weapons. They actually cannot even fire them all in a single turn in the TT. Nor would they be able to fire them in MWO (and not because of heat penalties either). So what you'd have to do is take some weapons off and slap on more DHS.

The masakari is a good example of this. Take the LRM10 and the ammo off and slap on more DHS. Put the left arm PPCs on left click and the right arm PPCs on right click. You now have a devastating fire platform for very little effort.

You have to understand that the clanners did like most people in MWO do. They took a chassis, put ES and DHS on, then a fast engine (their Heavies run at 80ish kph), and then slapped on as many weapons as possible. Their stock configs are decent enough to function on their own.

But I am going to have to say this. Your point is rather moot. You're style of play, while interesting, is considered fringe. They are not going to balance around -you- and they shouldn't. Its up to the players to figure out how to modifiy a mech so that it is a competent fighter on the battlefield. Player skill doesn't start when the match starts. It starts in the mechlab.

Again... welcome to MechWarrior.

There's no such thing as redundant weapons. I use the different weapons depending on range to the target, for example in my STK-3F i use the LL's and LRM's for medium range and ML's and SRM's for short range (no long range as it has no ballistics).

Imo playing a stock weapon configuration mech takes more skill than playing custom mechs, which is why i stopped using custom mechs, it was too easy. Using the mechlab to make mechs that are easier to use is not using skill...except the skill to make easy mode mechs.

But you're right, PGI aren't making MWO for BT fans. At this point i just wish they'd made their own IP instead of using BT/MW.

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 18 January 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

There's no such thing as redundant weapons. I use the different weapons depending on range to the target, for example in my STK-3F i use the LL's and LRM's for medium range and ML's and SRM's for short range (no long range as it has no ballistics).

Imo playing a stock weapon configuration mech takes more skill than playing custom mechs, which is why i stopped using custom mechs, it was too easy. Using the mechlab to make mechs that are easier to use is not using skill...except the skill to make easy mode mechs.

But you're right, PGI aren't making MWO for BT fans. At this point i just wish they'd made their own IP instead of using BT/MW.

So you've used a Daishi Prime in MWO already? Do you know what it even carries? Or even a Masakari Prime?

Again, you're a fringe element, they aren't going to balance this for you and you alone. Oh and by the way, I am a BT fan, I actually have a regular BT group I play with. And I'm fine with what they are doing here. But then I realize this isn't a turn based game. Many WikiWarriors don't understand that (if the shoe fits, wear it).

[Wolfways]

Taemien, on 18 January 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

So you've used a Daishi Prime in MWO already? Do you know what it even carries? Or even a Masakari Prime?

What? lol
Yes i know what they carry....so?

Quote

Again, you're a fringe element, they aren't going to balance this for you and you alone. Oh and by the way, I am a BT fan, I actually have a regular BT group I play with. And I'm fine with what they are doing here. But then I realize this isn't a turn based game. Many WikiWarriors don't understand that (if the shoe fits, wear it).

Sorry, i meant to say i'm a fan of the lore of the BT universe, not just (or at all) of big shooty robots. I don't understand how not being turn based equals ignore everything except the names of the mechs and equipment.
My point was why make a BT-based game if it's going to be very loosely based? It's like being a Star Wars fan and buying a game based on Star Wars only to find out that stormtroopers only use swords and Darth Vader was in fact an Ewok.

[Taemien]

Wolfways, on 18 January 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

What? lol
Yes i know what they carry....so?

Then you'd know that many of those weapons they carry aren't used except to conserve ammo, or when another is destroyed. There's no way a Daishi can use both arms in a single turn. Thats the point I was making when Clan mechs carry redundant weapons.

Quote

Sorry, i meant to say i'm a fan of the lore of the BT universe, not just (or at all) of big shooty robots. I don't understand how not being turn based equals ignore everything except the names of the mechs and equipment.
My point was why make a BT-based game if it's going to be very loosely based? It's like being a Star Wars fan and buying a game based on Star Wars only to find out that stormtroopers only use swords and Darth Vader was in fact an Ewok.

First of all there is no rules that stat that things should be one way or another in TT. Such as do lasers do instant damage, or damage over time over a period of 1-3 seconds? Is an AC20 one round or multiple in the span of 2, 5, or 10 seconds? The fluff in the source books and novels (which has its own classification, read Fiction vs Rules in any Rules Manual) are a guideline, but don't make up facts. Otherwise Catalyst Games would have a greater input.

So PGI has to work those numbers to make them sort of work in Real Time. The only numbers they can't futz with is Crits and Tons. But heat, dmg, velocity, charge time, duration, Rnds per minute, ect can be adjusted. And since there's no guideline, they have to take artistic liberty.

You have to ask your self. Do ACs feel like ACs? Do Lasers feel like Lasers? ect ect. For me.. the weapons do feel about right. Of course I have my opinions on how things could be different here or there. But to call them totally incompetent, as others have, is ridiculous.

With that being said. What should clans feel like? Carbon Copy weapons from IS, but just better? Or something that feels like Clan dogma that goes even into weapon development? I choose the latter.