1978 replies to this topic

[Mr 144]

Fooooo, on 14 December 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

At least we got some info I guess.


Thinking it over I've come to see that maybe weapon changes aren't even needed.....well...not many changes anyway.

If the clan mechs cant change engines, cant move FF or endo slots (so if you have 1 free slot in 1 arm and 1 free slot in the other arm, you can't move the FF or endo to get 2 free slots in 1 arm etc like IS mechs do auto), cant really change HS slots or whatever paul was going on about there.....and....

the big one.....

cannot change armor points..........

If you sufficiently "down-armoured" the clan mechs (some may already be at a good spot) then they become glass cannons, probably balanced against the IS mechs then.

In that the IS mechs "weaker" weapons dont matter as the clans have "less armor", so to make up for their less armor, the clans get more powerful weapons.............keeping the balance somewhat....

Its all theory tho, I'd love to test that out on the PTR........


Other then that at least some info is out......

I see no way non-distributable armor allocation or fixed FF/Endo Crit locations can make it into the game. Interchangeable body parts will only be possible if the swapped parts have the exact same number of FF/Endo slots assigned across all variants...which due to load-outs, more than likely will not be possible. You can't switch parts and have fixed placement...it just won't work while simultaneously maintaining the 7/7 crit spaces required.

Mismatched armor Values from swapped body parts across non-similarily armored variants may be neat....but ultimately I think they'll throw that out as well.

[Smitti]

After the initial "WTF?!!!???!?11!1", what irritates me most about the clan balancing and how everyone has access to it now is that I will now be denied the sweet satisfaction of being able to hose a dead clanner out of his cockpit and claim his mad cat for myself... I had so hoped for some segregation in terms of who has access to what, with the ability to claim salvage rights upon the vanquished. I really want to use the shiny clan stuff, but I wanted to have to earn it, not just flash the credit card again. Oh wells...

Edited by Smittiferous, 14 December 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Mystere]

East Indy, on 14 December 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Fire six, wait half a second, then fire six more. Can you handle that?

By definition, "AlphaWarriors" just can't.

[Aim64C]

Abivard, on 14 December 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

How much for the title and rights to the IP?

Give us a number, you might be surprised at what can be funded if you will give it up.

The Founders Package was able to raise $5M.

PGI knows, very well, what can be raised from this community (or, razed...)

The real asset worth getting a hold of is the rights to use artwork that has already been created. That's a huge cost of development (though not as much as PGI makes it out to be - the 'industry standard' pay for the wage is horribly inflated to begin with, and I'm certain they inflated their own pay to make sure there wasn't a bank account for litigation to pursue once this tin can gets busted wide open).

The main thing is, though, that the community more than has the assets to develop a better game than this. I propose a model where a sort of legal trust fund is established (I'd have to discuss this more with some of my lawyer and banker friends to see what exactly it is I am looking for) where the 'community leaders' (whoever that ends up being) could authorize payment for completed work. Basically - the community would be able to say: "I can make that mech" - and then they agree to make it at a contracted price in their spare time (monetizing their hobby) to be paid upon completion.

Keeping as much of the work in the open would be crucial to the process - and I admit I am not up to date with a number of the various tools used by the community (such as twitter) - such as those used by Anonymous groups to group-chat and coordinate (almost like a small government).

Though, I might have to check - I am not sure that PGI/IGP actually -owns- the license to re-sell in the first place. They may have simply licensed the IP, themselves (in which case - we need to go bark up a different tree).

[Gremlich Johns]

Mystere, on 14 December 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

My only issue with this is if the "clanners" consistently get wiped hard and often, they will go to the forums and cry for buffs for them or nerfs for the IS.

The player base may all find that the Clan-oriented Clansmen will not be playing this game at all depending on how PGI handles the Clan tech or permits Cross-teching.

[CronuxKobold]

While I love how the clan mechs look (timber wolf is sexy as ****!) I am not liking how clan weaponry is being looked at thus far, nor do I like this multiple variant thing for clan mechs. They are NOT IS mechs and should not be treated similarly. If the core of the game could be fixed, then such radical changes to fundamental clan tech pieces would be unnecessary. A Clan lrm with a minimum range? I scoff at the proposition. One omnimech can be refitted to any configuration. A configuration is NOT the equivalent of a variant. I was extremely excited when I saw the timber wolf on my load screen this morning, then let down when I read how the tech was being handled. Once again PGI has dissappointed me.

[Vanguard319]

As far as balancing clan lasers, having them be only slightly longer in range compared to an IS ER equivalent, and making the beam duration last longer to compensate for the increased damage sounds like the only really fair way to balance them. It also forces players using them to actually hold fire on their target instead of "spraying and praying" like so many do now. (those clan ER lasers won't do you any good if you're just sweeping the area and hoping for hits.)

I'm a little concerned about adjusting tonnage for certain weapons, as that will really screw up canon weapon loadouts for some mechs. A Timber Wolf Prime has two LRM 20s, if they each weigh 7 tons, that means you have to shave off four tons on the mech to allow them to fit (either 4 tons of armor, 4 heat sinks, or you lose the MGs and ER Medium lasers) I also can't see the gradual damage increase in damage under 180 m working, (missile warheads aren't dot like lasers, they either explode or they don't) and I still think they could better balance it out by disabling a clan launcher's ability to provide indirect fire without targeting guidance from another mech with spotting equipment.

I don't know how effective having streak SRMs fire two at a time will be, since most people will fire them at ranges under 90m, where an AMS is not likely take them out, at longer ranges, it would potentially make a mech with 2 AMS (we have at least 3~4 mechs ingame that can carry two, and the D variant Summoner has them as well) invulnerable to Streaks, since each unit can destroy one missile from each pair as they home in. Seeing as streaks currently hit all over the target, rather than in a tightly focused locaction, such balancing may not even be needed, and if damage is still a concern, you could set the damage back to 2 pts/missile.

I noticed the mention of variants in the clan packs right away, and I was curious about how they were going to implement Omnimechs more than anything. Being able to swap out one set of hardpoints for hardpoints from another variant is actually pretty original, while still placing a limit to what you can carry. I am a little concerned about the chassis restrictions however. As most players presently ingame are running around in Ace Customs with thicker armor and bigger engines, I'm a little bit worried that even with superior weapons, Clan mechs may wind up under powered due to the inability to make engine/armor adjustments.

[Gremlich Johns]

GlycerineOxide, on 14 December 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

I have to do it...no i can't...yes i can...oh s0d it



When the fail is so bad, even Jesus has to facepalm.

Don't blink

[Coralld]

Depending on how Clan mechs perform, I wouldn't be against allowing them to be able to swap engine sizes and armor amounts as long as they are small, but they can't go from STD to XL and vice versa.

[Mr 144]

Coralld, on 14 December 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Depending on how Clan mechs perform, I wouldn't be against allowing them to be able to swap engine sizes and armor amounts as long as they are small, but they can't go from STD to XL and vice versa.

Very little reason to want a std engine in a clan mech

[StompingOnTanks]

Just my two cents.. If it were up to me I'd say "Screw canon" and have Clan mechs work like this:

They are customized the same way IS mechs are but with omni hardpoints. Switching hardpoint types (for example, Laser to Ballistic) costs a ton of C-Bills.

Clan XL, FF, ES, ER lasers, Streak SRMs, etc. all work the same way IS Star League stuff does now.

Basically the stock Clan mechs are "pre-upgraded" IS mechs.

Does this totally ruin the point of Clan tech? Yes, but at least it means PGI won't come up with any completely stupid balancing fixes for it. -Glares at Ghost Heat.- >_>

[Lucky Moniker]

More punishing to noobs≠higher skill cap.
longer range but longer duration is not a good answer, because at those longer ranges, anyone with any skill can simply move. And no amount of "skill" can change that.
and let us not forget stock loadouts rarely bring the ammo that is needed. We may actually need to downgrade the weapons to meet ammo.

Edited by Lucky Moniker, 14 December 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Hmm.. I am playing around with some omni chassis with these restrictions.

Eh.. it's ok.

[xhrit]

aelfkins, on 14 December 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

The fact that the Clan version of LRM-20s have no minimum range is a huge problem. What you effectively now have is a Streak SRM-20 available to you if we cut minimum range to 0.

LRM-20 has a potential damage of 22, an SSRM-20 would have a potential damage of 50. Not really an accurate example.
Just make them only lock onto targets at 180m, and leave them dumb at 1-179m, with the standard 1.1 dmg per missile hit. Similar to an LBX-20, but with a wackier spread.

You just demonstrated the complete and total lack of understanding the developers have of this game. Did they forget that SRMs do twice as much damage as LRMs?
A Clan LRM-20 does the same damage in tabletop as an IS SRM 6, plus an IS SRM 4.
In no version of the rules does a clan LRM20 equal an IS streak SRM-20.
It equals an IS SRM-4 and a SRM-6.... which, weighs the exact same tonnage.
What exactly is the problem with that?
Oh right, in TT streaks don't home in on mechs.
Programming them to not lock on until after 180m is too hard?
Programming them to not auto-hit is too hard?

Niko Snow, on 14 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Please let us know your thoughts!

I am a light pilot. The Kit Fox is my favorite clan mech. When I first saw the announcement I was excited, but reading this has totally changed my mind. My only thought right now is if the Kit Fox really has less maximum leg armor then a locust, and is slower then a raven, I will not be buying a clan pack.

Nor will I be playing the clans.

Edited by xhrit, 14 December 2013 - 09:13 PM.

[FupDup]

xhrit, on 14 December 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

I am a light pilot. My only thought right now is if the Kit Fox has less maximum leg armor then a locust, I will be skipping the clan pack.

The Kit Fox comes stock with 8 leg armor in TT. In MWO, this gets doubled to 16. So it matches the Locust in terms of leg armor, with slightly higher internal health. However, because it can only go 97 kph stock, it will probably be overall less durable than the Lolcust.

[Argann]

I wish, I had something contructive to say, but I don't. I could just list what I am unhappy with, but it wouldn't matter at this point. I don't even know why I posted in this thread, therapy?

[anonymous161]

I'm not gonna buy the clans since they wont do any more damage really, will essentially have slightly better range but in these maps that are already small not a problem anyways. Over priced package with no real content added in 2 years if not more.

Give the clans a better edge than this, this is pay to win has always been really but will be more so than ever. I'm not spending a penny more ever and likely gonna end up uninstalling if I am not able to even try the clans trial versions at all or ever so likely couple more months and we dont see any new game modes then I'm done.

[AgroAlba]

It all sounds pretty good to me! I look forward to playing around with them.

[Dirus Nigh]

Clan tech weighs less and uses fewer crit slots. That right there is a huge advantage. Make the weapons use the same range, damage and heat values as IS weapons. That pretty much balanced.

I have no idea why PGI will not allow clan players to change armor values and types. This makes no sense. You tack armor on or strip it off. Its not a fundamental piece of equipment like the internal structure.

I understand why the internal structure is fixed. Clan mechs will most likely always use it. There is really no reason not to. However crit slots should be able to float.

Why would a clan technician not be able to change the engine? What rule in TT said it cannot be done? If you put in a bigger engine it take more weight, that is self balancing.

However I can see a concern with clan XL engines causing an imbalance. They have two engine slots in the side torsos, so taking one out does not kill the mech. That is a big advantage. To allow clan players to change engines and use XLs I suggest the fallowing.

Put in engine damage effects. For every engine slot destroyed the mech gains 5 points to the base heat of the mech, the top speed, acceleration and deceleration are all reduced by 10%. Torso twist speeds should not be tied to engine rating. They should be a fixed number based on the chassis.

Streaks are big problem. The first few days I played in closed beta was enough to show me how streak6s were going to dominate the game. Yes the targeting mechanic has vastly improved but the under lying problem is still there. Steaks can maintain a lock and be spam fired doing max damage to the target, until it dies. Having a clan streak stagger fire the missiles in pairs will not create a balance. It will be no different than a streak cat chain firing it's streaks. Except that the clan mech will also have lasers, and auto cannons firing as well.

I suggest making streaks lose lock every time they fire. You can then put in a module that decreases lock on times by 1/4 of a second.

How PGI wants to do omni slots sounds interesting. I want to see it work before I give an opinion either way.

I do have a suggestion for making the omni tech more prominent. Clan players can only have one mech chassis loaded in for a drop. When they see what map they are playing they can pick up to four different load outs of that chassis to use in that match.

Suggestion for CW and clan VS inner sphere. The Bachal clans perform when attacking a defending force can be implemented a match making devise for CW. A Clan unit attacks an IS planet. The game puts both teams in a lobby. The Clan players select their mechs and show what they are using. The defending IS players chose what map to fight on.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 14 December 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[Gherrek]

Don't forget that Clan XL engines are smaller than IS ones. In the 3050 TRO's the Clans almost uniformly had heat issues, mech's like the Loki(Hellbringer) and Blackhawk(Nova) were absolute heat hogs and a Clan mech would rarely be able to use its full firepower. You was meant to be a better player with them, you had to juggle your heat whilst being aware of other things.

Going back to the Loki for example. Fast, madly well armed. NO ARMOUR, its a glass cannon, you have to use it smart and tactically, same with the Mad Dog and almost all of their lights and mediums.