1978 replies to this topic

[Dan Nashe]

I don't have any problem with any of it big-picture.
I'm still a little worried how you're going to pull off balancing things like LRM, but I'm sure internal tests will help.

Longer recycle times and more heat per weapon (not just alpha strike) don't seem to be mentioned, but seem like obvious possibilities.

I'm pretty comfortable with everything proposed. I think a lot of it sounds like "maybe not enough" but it's all subject to change. None of the proposed tweaks so far bother me.

My only big issue really is that because of the FIXED LOCATION of Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous slots, it could be pretty restrictive. I'm also sad that the Loki (Hellbringer?) will (probably) be a terrible mech.

The problem ultimately is that armor is tremendously important, and full torso armor is basically mandatory because it's usefulness/ton is insanely helpful.

As a result, I fear this could ruin a few mechs.
That said, I think MY favorites (Stormcrow, Warhawk, Timberwolf, Masakari) all have Max Armor (I actually expect I won't like the Masakari). I think the jumping ones (Nova (I forget the name).

That said, the inability to strip armor from arms and legs will negate things.

the issue will ultimately be that because these are all lore-set, uncustomizable features, I think it is VERY likely that there will be "good" and "completely useless" clan mechs, even more so than there are inner sphere mechs ("Well, this would have been good, but the FF and ENDO in the torso means no AC-10).

On the other hand, variants that do it well, if clan weapons are slightly better than inner sphere weapons to compensate for the "lack of flexibility" could dominate because the weakness will be relatively illusory.

So I fear we'll see a continuum of:
Clan Mechs with designs that can be built very well with the Meta
>>>>
Inner Sphere mechs
>
Clan mechs that can't.

It sounds like there may also be no mixing of clan tech?
Did they discuss that at all?
That could be really important.

Follow up: Will Clan mechs with XLs survive single-side torso destruction?

Here's my big concern:
I won't buy a mech until I an build it in Smurfys.
You will never sell any of the new package to me until details are finalized.
So more details are good.

[Mr 144]

I'm really hoping for ATMs. Quite a few of the standard Alt Configs use them, but so far no mention. A mechanic for alternate ammo types also gives LBX's hope

[xXBagheeraXx]

*Heres a perfect idea for the Clan lrms that could make it to where they arent so broken....

Clan lrms, if I remember my tech right dont ark up in the air like IS ones do. so basically if you were behind cover, you are completly safe from clan lrms since they wont ark up in the air and drop on you like the IS ones do currently. What could be done to get around the lack of minimum range would be a SLIGHT ark up in the air upon launch, then they fly STRAIGHT at the target. Something similar to this was done in Mechwarrior living legends. Clan lrms had no minimum range, but arked sligntly up in the air upon launch, so to Hit someone at min range, you had to point your nose Nearly in the dirt, and facehug them, resulting in slight splash damage to yourself. this "min range" sweetspot could be shorter than the IS ones, like say anything within 80 meters would be hard, but not impossible to hit. I will STILL use innersphere lrms in my support mechs if they use this lrm model, Clan lrms would be more useful in mid range direct fire configs, so they will have a niche, but not be the end all-be all. Want to rain LRM death from afar on unsuspecting heads? Innersphere ftw...wnat to add a nice lrm 20 punch on top of your Clan large laser/gauss rifle combo? Clan LRMS are the weapons for you!

[DocBach]

Mr 144, on 14 December 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I'm really hoping for ATMs. Quite a few of the standard Alt Configs use them, but so far no mention. A mechanic for alternate ammo types also gives LBX's hope

they come out around 3060.

[Butane9000]

So much crying in this thread. This like the CW post is a way for them to tell us their ideas. Stop freaking out and give them proper constructive feedback. Your rage and denial are why they never tell us anything.

[Mr 144]

DocBach, on 14 December 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

they come out around 3060.

3053....pretty close...new mechs are great and all, but I think we need some weapon flavor too as opposed to just clan versions of everything we already have.

[Alex Gorsky]

Quote

The engine type and rating

sarna
Adder (Puma)
210 XL(invariable)
97.2 km/h

smurfy's
JR7-F
300 XL(max)
138.9 kph

GG CLOSE

[Blossoming Tyrant]

The way I see it, is that the clan tech isn't balanced, and isn't supposed to be balanced. Changing everything is a nightmare, and doesn't seem really practical. Looking at the examples, and I do understand they are just examples, makes it clear that it's not going to happen.

So to begin with, keep the clan tech as it is in lore, and take an entirely different tactic to balance things. Things like CW and weight matching are mechanics that would be ideal, and we're planned for implimentation anyway. Without seeing those yet, it's hard to rely on them being implemented prior to the clan mechs, since the mechs already have a price tag $.

The simplest solution, is to have clan vs IS matches where you have less clan players. Obviously this has a huge downside of everybody wanting to play the clan, because it's new and because you're far stronger than the IS. That means that clan players, who've paid a huge amount for early access, will have to endure larger queue times. You can make clan it's own queue, but that will canibalize the IS games, and if you don't have a critical base of IS players playing people will quit. When people quit a pvp game due to not enough players, it's a death spiral and you're done.

So we need 8 IS v 5 clan. Or 8 IS v 10 clan v 8 IS 3-way brawling. Maybe even 12 v 5 balanced with weight restrictions.

Another option is for salvage of items from IS v clan battles. We already have inventory and specific numbers of weapons (5 large lasers, 2 ppcs in stock) so the framework is there. Have a certain amount of "clan tech salvage" that builds up for each player after a match. The more you build up, the higher the chance to "recover" a fixable peice of clan tech. When that occurs your clan tech salvage decreases by X amount, based upon what you found. Bigger salvages result in higher chances of bigger items. Effectivley allowing a gear/loot grind for IS pilots. Such a mechanic could encourage IS players to keep playing even if the clan mechs are better and more fun.

The loot option could benefit from a more advanced match making system. Adding things like partial clan tech to IS would need extra weight to offset it. I don't mean your 55 ton mech with clan tech actually weighs 56+ tons, but when it comes to matching up it "counts" as being a higher tonnage for balancing the matches.

In the end eventually the IS would have access to more or less the same tech, which could work IMO.

I'd also add that certain balancing mechanics of the omni mechs would work better (and be less work to design) if they were allowed to customize engines, armor etc. just like current IS mechs. Since we wouldn't be balancing things on a 1 IS = 1 clan mech basis, it's ok to have the clan mechs have all the customization of the IS and then some.

All in all I think something like that could be accomplished in 6 months. No offense intended to the development team, but I have zero faith, none whatsoever, that they can balance the weapons and such in only 6 months, given where they are now. It's very questionable as to whether balancing clan tech is even possible at all, even if they had 6 years of development.

MM, CW and weight restrictions could be rolled into the clan release and allow for the complete avoidance of balancing clan tech all together. It'd have the HUGE added bonuses of fulfilling the promises already made by the development team, for features not yet implimented.

Edited by Blossoming Tyrant, 14 December 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

That is the best way to implement Clans in any MW game. Really great job PGI, looking forward to playing these Mechs.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Butane9000, on 14 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

So much crying in this thread. This like the CW post is a way for them to tell us their ideas. Stop freaking out and give them proper constructive feedback. Your rage and denial are why they never tell us anything.

and how oftern have they listened to feedback? an offer of srm damage boost, 1pv only for 12vs 12 with snarky "lucky players" remark.... can't think of anymore. the rest like ecm etc stayed as it always has and still causes problems today, atlas is always ddc etc etc.

so you want feed back?

nerfs to weapons, not so bad

nerfs to customisations WTF!? i can only have missle hard points on an omni mech arm if there's a varient to rip it off from? THEN THAT'S NOT OMNI! need ammo or heatsinks? nope armour and engine and heatsinks are all hardwired no customisation allowed.

so clans are pretty much limited to stock, change a weapon and figure out what to do with the left over tons because there's no way you can upgrade or down grade anything else to balance your builds. this "plan" is a total fun game KILLER! because its too hard to have 10vs16 match ups which balances opness right out the door. clanner can't kill everyone at once but hey i've just played MWO for over a year and focus fire with superior numbers over loners never wins.

at this rate clans our no better than STOCK CHAMPIONS, claners will be slaughtered by poptarters and sniper builds unless they ride the meta guns HARD. it's looking like a real disaster.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 December 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Happy to provide feedback, and positive at that, but I feel I should clear something up first with you Paul. After fifteen months I have little respect for you. You tell us that Community Warfare, a core component of the game, two years or more into production, has not yet had one single line of code laid down. This is just... wow. So very unimpressive and yet so characteristic of PGI. I do not say this to cause offense, I feel I should frame my feedback here honestly, and that is required. Also, I would much prefer to be wrong here, than right.

That said. I see very little to quibble over here. I knew back in '12 from comments back then that Clan LRM would be given the minimum ditance they were intended to have but never corrected to have, however, it was both a very pleasant surprise and very nice to see a compromise there. On all other aspects discussed, beam times, damage, heat, weight, etc, it all sounds fine to me.

There is one thing I disagree with. Please yeild on engine ratings and armour points? The rest I find acceptable but those two seem to be two sacrifices too many. I ask not for the same leniency that we get with IS mechs, only that we have a narrower but still modifiable range within we can work.

Also. I feel that, perhaps ironically, as little work on ClanTech numbers as possible would feel better to me - you have two years to make up for with CW and six months to do it in. Perhaps ask for people to volunteer for PTS sessions with a signed NDA to test ClanTech? All efforts on CW should not be spared with so short a deadline, I think this could help you and us both by killing two birds with one stone.

Anyways. In summary, like what I see here, and the info and your time is appreciated. Please use this as a first step in proving those like me wrong about you, and I wish you and your team good luck. <S>

[Corbon Zackery]

The main issues your going to have is weapon boating since you can't get around the tonnage and smaller critical slots. You can't change that format otherwise certain clan light mechs no longer work.

Will use the Puma as a classic example since its a icon medium to assault killer.

Primary:
2 ER PPC
1 Flamer
13 ton weapon package taking up 5 spaces: That allow a lot of flexibility in construction.

IS:
15 ton weapon package taking up 7 spaces: So your already unbalanced by 2 tons.

A: Configuration is 2 LRM 20 2 small pulse:
12 ton weapons package taking up 10 slots leaving even more room for modifications

IS:
22 ton weapon package taking up 12 slots next to impossible to mount on a 35 ton mech.

B: LBX 5, large pulse, 2 ER Medium
15 ton weapon package 8 crit slots

IS: 17 tons 9 crit slots

C: 2 LRM 15 1 Narc M pulse laser since by your own words the clan LRM will have no min range just do less damage this is a instant mech killer slap a narc on CT and shoot away
11 ton weapon package 7 crit slots

IS: 19 tons 9 slots

I don't have to go any farther I've proven no matter what you do to change the weapons weight and critical slots will still unbalance the game to a point were this will be a total fail without some heavy modification to the Omni mechs themselves.

Your going to have to rewrite the whole Clan chart, and that changes every Omni mech and configuration thus you lose the classic clan feel.

:rolleyes:Unless you want 35 ton mechs running around with the same firepower of 65 ton catapult.
Right now you have in the Puma A configuration a 35 ton mech running around doing 50.40 damage.

Huge damage unbalance!!!!!!!!! So how your going to fix that without huge clan weapon modification redoing the whole chart thus changing the configuration of the clan Omni mechs its hopeless your not buying a A configuration Puma you will be buying a MechWarrior online facsimile that has a puma skin.

This is not just some oh will quick fix it in a week and fine toon as we go.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 14 December 2013 - 11:08 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

^^^^
why do people think the wepon values and the amount of stacking is gonna save the clanner if he's outnumbered 3-1? seriously i dare a poptarter lordz group of 4 to win against 12 equally smart players in their best medium and heavies. you know 4 poptarters could take out a mech or two and then get smothered to death. shame nobody understands the numbers game 5 shermans beat a tiger and on many occasion 2 medium mechs have beaten an assault, same can be applied between IS and Clans, i suspect it's too hard for pgi to code uneven drops for the match maker.

Sir Roland MXIII, on 14 December 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

nice post

i have grab deal before content clouding over my ettiqute sorry if i can't post in sweet tones but reading what paul's- david B's said looks like taking a meat clever to dentestry. they need to THOROUGHLY test these restrictions before release. the delay is okay they'll extend the grab deals and the CW soons anyways.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 December 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[Mr 144]

GalaxyBluestar, on 14 December 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

nerfs to customisations WTF!? i can only have missle hard points on an omni mech arm if there's a varient to rip it off from? THEN THAT'S NOT OMNI! need ammo or heatsinks? nope armour and engine and heatsinks are all hardwired no customisation allowed.

You can upgrade the number of DHS...you just can't downgrade past "base". The Nova for example has 14 base, and adds 4 more for the prime 12xERML loadout. This means you cannot drop below 14 DHS on this chassis as opposed to the 10 minimum on IS....not a big deal IMO, as only the downgrade is disallowed, and 14DHS base is pretty practical.

Edited by Mr 144, 14 December 2013 - 11:09 PM.

[Lagster]

Not sure why this wasn't covered... but:

Will IS chassis be able to mount clantech, and vice versa?

[Mr 144]

Lagster, on 14 December 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Not sure why this wasn't covered... but:

Will IS chassis be able to mount clantech, and vice versa?

Hope not...Full IS customization + Clan XL + Clan End+FF + Clan Weapons = redonkulous

[GalaxyBluestar]

Mr 144, on 14 December 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

You can upgrade the number of DHS...you just can't downgrade past "base". The Nova for example has 14 base, and adds 4 more for the prime 12xERML loadout. This means you cannot drop below 14 DHS on this chassis as opposed to the 10 minimum on IS....not a big deal IMO, as only the downgrade is disallowed, and 14DHS base is pretty practical.

that's fine for a laser boat but an OMNI is a anything mech. so you'll have no tonnage or room for ammo when you start configuring because you can't take off those heatsinks, and you can't take armour off either? guess they'll remain stock then cause you'll never make a better build, no point in a customisation game if you can't figure a better build. i just can't believe we've come as far as to have this debate over OMNI mechs where IS is better at mechlabbing!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 December 2013 - 11:14 PM.

[The Big Stick]

One of the things I'm reading is clan tech versus IS tech and how once clan is introduced it ruled and there was really no reason to run IS tech... Here's an idea

One of the primary advantages of IS tech was the C3 command and control system ... In my mind I see this implemented this way...
Enhance the the commander functions as follows
1. from the command screen (map) allow the commander to see all enemy mechs that are seen by his units on the map whether the individual mechs have them targeted or not.
2. the mechs that are seen but not "targeted" by the field units appear as red dots. units that are targeted appear as l/m/h/a icons with color coded health indicators.
3. Allow the the commander to "Target" any one unit. Once that unit is targeted it shows up as a second (yellow?) targeted unit. As long as any friendly mechs keep it in sight the commanders target does not get lost.

Example: If i am running a lrm boat I might see my normal targeted unit with the red square around it as usual. I might also see an enemy mech with a yellow square around it. If I put my targeting reticle over either of the these I get lock and can then fire on that target.

Important: The commanders screen is a Switch to view mode as it is now. (B to open / close) UNLESS a mech has a command module equipped in a dropping mech which case a 13 player may drop with a lance who only has access to the command screen (if you take company command before drop you are saying you are willing to be the 13th player.) If a mech with the command module dies then command functions are lost unless there is another mech with a command module or another player switches out of FPS view and into the command map. (in the first case the "commander" keeps command / in the latter case the player who switches to the command map takes command) (think of it as the mech commander game player over top of the mechwarrior game)

Clan mechs can not contain command modules and do not get any targeting information from the company commander.

One of the things this does is allow all IS players to get an advantage similar to what units running teamspeak get now (the ability to focus fire on a designated target)

[Mr 144]

GalaxyBluestar, on 14 December 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

that's fine for a laser boat but an OMNI is a anything mech. so you'll have no tonnage or room for ammo when you start configuring because you can't take off those heatsinks, and you can't take armour off either? guess they'll remain stock then cause you'll never make a better build, no point in a customisation game if you can't figure a better build. i just can't believe we've come as far as to have this debate over OMNI mechs where IS is better at mechlabbing!

I'm really doubting there gonna stick with armor allocation and amount being non-customizable. Without a damage reduction buff to FF (or something) than stock FF vs stock Endo chassis just suffer a plain 'ole nerf. I like the hardwired structure and would just prefer a non-tonnage buff/perk to FF for both IS and Clan.

I don't know the specific "base" numbers of DHS off-hand, but I don't think the ones I've looked up are extreme.

Yes, with basically no tonnage tweaks other than weapons, ammo count, and extra DHS, it does hurt customization options. There is a good portion of players who believe stock mech viabilty should be in-game (I don't care, I worship the lab) and with OP weapons, it's a good place to bring limited customization into the game....even if it's bass-ackwards on Clan vs IS tech. If you start doing the math, the builds aren't that bad for customization.

But it get's worse....no one has mentioned yet JJs being hard-wired....which means I HAVE to take all 5 JJs in the Nova....another tonnage penalty eating away at the tonnage/crit benefits of clan tech.

[Aim64C]

Noth, on 14 December 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

It won't be nearly as bad as the other MW games though. That is the point. You keep the IS weapons competitive so that the need to use clan tech is not as urgent or as required.

The balancing philosophy is largely inverted.

Clans represent 200 years of combat-oriented development from Star League era components (which the IS is only -now- beginning to re-develop the infrastructure to reproduce to some degree or another).

Trying to "make them so that IS is competitive" is a fool's errand, plain and simple. Even if you just stick with the basic mass and critical slot gains over IS components - the Clans are still wickedly overpowered (you may as well just give everything over 50 tons a free LRM 20 hard-wired into their build and call it the Clan Invasion Simulator).

The converse... transverse... (?) of the question should be asked: "How do we make Inner Sphere weapons more competitive against the Clans?"

It's a subtle difference, I know - but the focus is key.

The Inner Sphere is in a technological Renaissance, of sorts. Manufacturers, everywhere, are pumping out various designs and classes of weapon systems based upon the knowledge gleaned from the Helm Memory Core that is finally being put to use. War has driven up demand for innovative weapons and solutions (missiles were especially fun for IS weapon designers). The Clan invasion threw that process into a panicked overdrive.

What I would propose is a module system for weapons only available to IS weapon systems. These modules (which would actually have some thought and creativity applied to them, rather than the current module system for mechs...) would alter the performance of weapons - from some supporting increased range to others representing prototype or specialty ammunition. Some might be lower recycle times, others might lower heat generation, one might reduce the chance of jamming, another might shorten firing duration, etc.

I would also propose an overhaul to the current mech module system - breaking the modules up to represent different regions of a 'mechs chassis. The internal structure could receive, for example, a module or two - the engine could receive a module or two (perhaps standard engines receive an extra module over XLs), the cockpit/sensor system could receive a module, the Myomer/actuators could receive a module, etc.

Allowing IS mechs to take advantage of these module systems would enrich the IS gaming experience while the Clans would be considerably more straight-forward (though trying to make gameplay elements that capture their very rigid systems of honor and bidding would be a good idea).

The other major problem, though, is that we are currently balancing in a bubble.

That bubble is mech-on-mech combat, exclusively, on a battlefield that is too small to require scouting with fixed and transparent objectives assigned to each team.

Of course the game is going to gravitate toward heavies and assaults and will adopt Clan/Mix Tech ASAP.

All you've got to try and balance a game around is Team Solaris against evenly numbered teams where the lightest chassis is 1/5 the mass of the heaviest chassis allowed.

You'll never balance the mechs and weapons of the IS that way... much less IS against Clan.