1978 replies to this topic

[Outlaw]

Here are my concerns;

1) The inability to adjust armor will make a large number of Clan Mechs unusable in the current Meta, unless some serious changes come about a large number of Clan Omnimechs will never really be seen on the field unless they are just diehard fans of that chassis; major example would be the Hellbringer and Kit Fox. What really makes this painfully obvious is that the IS mechs will have fully 100% optimized armor, while clan Omnimechs are stuck with whatever the Devs feel is right.

2) The balancing on the weapons is going in the wrong direction, I can live with changes to damage, range, and cycle time, but weight and crit changes are a bad idea here as it will ruin the base configurations of these Omnimechs. The approach to weapon balance is not quite what i had in mind, and not sure if i agree with it. The biggest concern is LRMs, personally I think they should stick with the weight and crits, with an increase to cycle time. Next to counter the massive advantage to weight savings, i would have it generate more heat, as well as be restricted to Direct LOS only firing. Meaning that it has no arc and cannot make use of friendly spotters, as this goes more along the lines of the Clans focusing on personal glory instead of teamwork.

3) The vibe im getting about Omni Pods is that they are going to be locked in hardpoints of certain types that can be swapped out between different configurations of the chassis. If that is true than its nothing more than giving the clans a slightly more customized feel in terms of weapon hardpoints, however as it sits the IS players can fully customize their mechs Engines, Armor, Structure, Heatsinks, and weapon layouts within the build restrictions of the game. So what is the true draw to Clan tech when you know in a competitive situation the IS players will always have a major advantage in these aspects. Personally I would like to see the weapon systems perform similar if not identical to IS weapons but maintain the Weight and Crit slot advantages so the stock load outs don't need to be overly tinkered with, after all there are a number of people in the community that are looking forward to Stock Leagues if and whenever Private Lobbies are added.

Edited by Outlaw, 14 December 2013 - 11:28 PM.

[Volkodav]

Not a valid example.

DCM Zeus, on 14 December 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

That is one of the restriction of "Omni-Mech".

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Disadvantages

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.^[26] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However, the mounting points for them in the arms are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons, and PPCs, so the lower-arm and hand must be removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.^[7]
With further regard to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology or old Star League designs.^[27]
The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts.^[25]


With config swapping, we could see the first assault mech with dual AC20's.

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor

and everything else that is now possible in mechlab IS - ^ ))).

It turns out all you can do to IS mechs? Then a legitimate question - why can not it Clan.


It would be better if:
p.s. year - 3058 in example - less problem in balance and other , and more mechs, more weapons , mixed technology and new technologies in the inner sphere for balancing, etc

Edited by Volkodav, 14 December 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[Naduk]

loving the look of this omni mech design

i look forward to seeing a true rendition of the BT rules for Omnis
every game in the past just let people have free reign and/or treated them like any other mech

i think its going to be very interesting to see how many people wont like them due to their restrictions

currently we build our mechs around what hardpoints we have available
everything we put into a mech is based on what our weapons choices are and then after that comes armour, engine, heat sinks and accessories as we try to squeeze in everything we can to fit our weapons build
with exception of some times engine comes first

but with omni mechs its going to be reversed
the chassis will have set engines, armour, min heat sinks and sometimes weapons
with so much of a mech fixed, the build comes out of what can you fit into / around the engine and armour config
giving you very little choice of what weapons you can actually take, yet with customizable hardpoints letting you play how you feel at the time

very cool

[Asatur]

Niko Snow, on 14 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

This is the designated thread for feedback on http://mwomercs.com/...gn-perspective/ Please let us know your thoughts!

[Joe Decker]

i just want to express an Idea here. Even I think it is strange that PGI has no clear Path for the Clan Implementation atm but want much Money for it...

Well whatever, my Idea how to deal with the Clanmechs would be this : Leave the Clantech be as it is (mostly). Don't reduce their Power too much (Maybe a little bit here and there). If you do that it is not Clanmech/tech anymore at some Point.

btw I think the Omnimech Idea is okey.

What you can regulate without getting into Trouble too much and where you got free Hand is : How can a Pilot qualify for piloting a Clanmech ? How can a Pilot qualify for using Clantech ?

Here I would implement a Honour System for Pilots that want to use Clanmechs/Clantech.

A Pilot earns Honour and Dishonour by his Actions. There should be three Kinds of Actions in the Game :

Actions that let you earn Honour
Actions that don't add Honour to your Pilot, but also don't earn you Dishonour
Actions that let you earn Dishonour

You'll get an Honour Bar which tells you how honourable or dishonourable you are.

You start with a small Amount of Honour Points which indicate you are honourable enough to let you use the lowest Clanmech/Clantech Tier. When you earn more Dishonour than Honour it will happen that you become completely unable to use any Clanstuff at full Power. When you earn more and more Honour you will unlock new Clanstuff. Of Course again : If at any Point in your Career you start behaving unhonourable you loose those Privileges again.

There should be a Cap at 100 to 120 Honourpoints which indicate you got maximum Honour aswell as a Minimum at 0 Honourpoints which indicate you are not honourable. For using the smallest Clan Light Mech you need about 30 Honourpoints. For the biggest Clan Mech, the Dire Wolf/Daishi for Example you need at least 100 Honourpoints.

You should start with your Pilot at 30 Honourpoints.

If you fall below 30 Honourpoints you can still use the lowest Tier Clanmech but you are nerfed pretty heavily. Shall mean : No Pilot Skill Benefits, all Weapons do 10 to 20 Percent less Damage. Just an Idea.

You can gain Honour by Decisions in Gamemaking for Example. If you accept to be outnumbered by IS Pilots you should earn a little bit Honour - a lot more Honour if you win a Battle where you are outnumbered. Just an Example.
Playing an early Baserush/Basecap within the first 5 Minutes will earn you Dishonour. Just an Example.
The Enemy Players can award you with Honour Points if they think you are a honourable Enemy.
Every Pilot should have 2 Honour and 2 Dishonour Points he can give away per Match. For every Dishonour Point he gives to an enemy Player he needs to choose another enemy Player who gets an Honour Point. Every Pilot can give away an Honour Point without having to choose someone to get a Dishonour Point.

Each Clanmech, each Clanmechconfiguration and each Piece of Clanweapons/systems/tech should have its own minimum Honour Requirement.

Of Course what we also need is an own Gamemode for Battles with Clanmechs. We should have Gamemodes for Inner Sphere Mechs only aswell as Gamemodes where Clanmechs are allowed with the abovementioned Honour System.

No Player should be forced to face overpowered Clanmechs if he does not want to ! But IS Players that accept the Challenge should get a Gamemode for that and earn maybe Bonus C-Bills when they win. Or they are allowed to loot a single Clanweapon/System they can use in their Inner Spere Mech. Of Course these looted Weapons/Systems shall be less effective in an IS Mech than in a Clanmech. Therefore nerfed Variants as Loot only.

Just my Ideas so far. Of Course there is Room for Details and Improvements to this System, but this is only a first Idea.

Edited by Joe Decker, 15 December 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[Cola]

Omnimech plan- Don't like it

Clan weapons- I understand it and can somewhat agree.


At this point I wish MW 3025 made it to stores, we would already have fan based CW leagues in full effect. I wonder what the MWLL team, or mektek could have done with the kind of money we stupid people have spent on the {Scrap} that MWO has become.

[Morderian]

well its nice to see about your plans of the clans but i think some things need to be diffrent for the clans partially with new mechanics:

1: changing ton or critslots of equipment, this is a no go there are people who want to play there mechs in a lore loadout (TT) but if you change weight or slots they cant and you will lose potential customers

2: Omnimech design, well your design is not that bad but not changing engine and other things is not good, it would be simpler to say if you want a bigger engine or more armor pay them with your omnitonnage and make hardwired equipment hardwired

3: LRMs well i long thought about clan lrms and balance in my opinion it would be good to give them two modes which can be changed in combat
a: indirect fire mode, same as now but with a higher minrange like 300meter and lesser Rof for the smaller tonnage

b: direct fire mode, the missiles fly very flat directly to where you aim, no locking, no min range and they fire like a
Katyusha, Sherman Calliope or Nebelwerfer one Missile after anotherso you get an weapon with a big range but
need lots of skill to hit enemys at bigger distance they are also less damaging in ultra close range if the enemy moves

4: Clan Ultra ACs: let them fire salvos, that means an AC20 doesnt fire one shot with 20 damage but 10 shots in a salvo (that would actually be good for every AC on the field so they are more lorelike)

Edited by Morderian, 14 December 2013 - 11:38 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Aim64C, on 14 December 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

The balancing philosophy is largely inverted.

Clans represent 200 years of combat-oriented development from Star League era components (which the IS is only -now- beginning to re-develop the infrastructure to reproduce to some degree or another).

Trying to "make them so that IS is competitive" is a fool's errand, plain and simple. Even if you just stick with the basic mass and critical slot gains over IS components - the Clans are still wickedly overpowered (you may as well just give everything over 50 tons a free LRM 20 hard-wired into their build and call it the Clan Invasion Simulator).

The converse... transverse... (?) of the question should be asked: "How do we make Inner Sphere weapons more competitive against the Clans?"

It's a subtle difference, I know - but the focus is key.

The Inner Sphere is in a technological Renaissance, of sorts. Manufacturers, everywhere, are pumping out various designs and classes of weapon systems based upon the knowledge gleaned from the Helm Memory Core that is finally being put to use. War has driven up demand for innovative weapons and solutions (missiles were especially fun for IS weapon designers). The Clan invasion threw that process into a panicked overdrive.

What I would propose is a module system for weapons only available to IS weapon systems. These modules (which would actually have some thought and creativity applied to them, rather than the current module system for mechs...) would alter the performance of weapons - from some supporting increased range to others representing prototype or specialty ammunition. Some might be lower recycle times, others might lower heat generation, one might reduce the chance of jamming, another might shorten firing duration, etc.

I would also propose an overhaul to the current mech module system - breaking the modules up to represent different regions of a 'mechs chassis. The internal structure could receive, for example, a module or two - the engine could receive a module or two (perhaps standard engines receive an extra module over XLs), the cockpit/sensor system could receive a module, the Myomer/actuators could receive a module, etc.

Allowing IS mechs to take advantage of these module systems would enrich the IS gaming experience while the Clans would be considerably more straight-forward (though trying to make gameplay elements that capture their very rigid systems of honor and bidding would be a good idea).

The other major problem, though, is that we are currently balancing in a bubble.

That bubble is mech-on-mech combat, exclusively, on a battlefield that is too small to require scouting with fixed and transparent objectives assigned to each team.

Of course the game is going to gravitate toward heavies and assaults and will adopt Clan/Mix Tech ASAP.

All you've got to try and balance a game around is Team Solaris against evenly numbered teams where the lightest chassis is 1/5 the mass of the heaviest chassis allowed.

You'll never balance the mechs and weapons of the IS that way... much less IS against Clan.

or not give clans modules at all which was one of the many ideas passed around the other thread i linked. but seems like PGI wants to kill the core of the game's fun factor when it comes to playing clans.

Morderian, on 14 December 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

4: Clan Ultra ACs: let them fire salvos, that means an AC20 doesnt fire one shot with 20 damage but 10 shots in a salvo (that would actually be good for every AC on the field so they are more lorelike)

stagger fire like in MW3 was suggested to balance AC's alongside the beam Dot system for lasers. it was ignored then and it will continue being ignored. unless there's a sudden modification made to IS Uac5 all of a sudden.

Naduk, on 14 December 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

loving the look of this omni mech design

i look forward to seeing a true rendition of the BT rules for Omnis

i'm still looking forward to IS stock mechs being viable but we can't have it all

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 December 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[TrentTheWanderer]

You could just do a time warp to a period where the arms race has evened out a little. Might as well, we're better than a year off the actual time line as it was meant to occur already.

Then you could add the Uziel!

[Mr 144]

Re: LRMs....

God knows they have enough testing done now on trajectory arc and clustering...I would much prefer keeping the theoretical zero minimum range and using a direct fire arc/clustering that makes both close range firing and indirect long range firing impractical...but possible rather than messing with sliding damage values on minimum range.

Edited by Mr 144, 14 December 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I don't know if this is just more background noise PGI will ignore but I will keep it simple.

Even if clan tech is slightly more powerful it will obsolete IS mechs and it will become an arms race. This is not speculation this is a fact that can be proven by looking at the history of nearly any game.

Clan tech will always be better, trying to make them sidegrades will not working for this franchise.

Therefore you must take into account no matter what balancing there is the only solution is that clan tech is better and thus need a handicap in a competative game. Battlevalue, reduced tonnage, whatever ... This is the only way clans will be balanced against IS tech and be fun.

What we do not know is how the clans and inner sphere will even interact ... If it's just being any mech IS or clan to a fight I will be sorely dissapointed and any lore there way has been destroyed.

PGI please ... Hw you implement how clans fight the IS is WAY more important than the details of balance that is the only thing that matters.

[Corbon Zackery]

Like I said if you don't change the weight, tons and critical slots you have 35 ton Pumas running around doing 50.40 damage in a A configuration.

That's stock unmodified I bought the A configuration hardpoints have a nice day. Goodbye 100 ton Atlas in about 3 shots with a tag laser.

That's a total unbalance!!!!

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 14 December 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[Outlaw]

Corbon Zackery, on 14 December 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Like I said if you don't change the weight, tons and critical slots you have 35 ton Pumas running around doing 50.40 damage in a A configuration.

That's stock unmodified I bought the A configuration hardpoints have a nice day. Goodbye 100 ton Atlas in about 3 shots with a tag laser.

That's a total unbalance!!!!

Well first off it doesnt have Artemis, so you dont get the Art/Tag Stack which makes LRMs feel OP right now, not only that the stock layout only carries 2 tons of ammo per launcher, which without the stacking bonus wont be nearly as effective as you are fearing it to be.

Edited by Outlaw, 14 December 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Lagster]

Mr 144, on 14 December 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

Hope not...Full IS customization + Clan XL + Clan End+FF + Clan Weapons = redonkulous

Yeah, imagine UAC40 boom jagers. I might squeeze a clan LRM 20 into my raven 3L's narc tube just for lulz. But still, restricting that would suck big time since we'll all have to grind out another set of 12 mechs and pay for 12 more mechbays.

[kapusta11]

Well clans lost to IS because of lack of teamplay, it were like pugs against premades, I'd build a game around that concept. Add clan vs clan mode (so that they have something to play) and IS premades against Clan pugs but nerfing clan mechs is a core mistake imo. You can give IS some cool team modules (new variants of ecm, bap, ams etc), you can then introduce commander mechs (variants) with {Scrap} weapon hardpoints but insane amount of modules and other stuff that indirectly affects the outcome of the match.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 December 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Corbon Zackery, on 14 December 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Like I said if you don't change the weight, tons and critical slots you have 35 ton Pumas running around doing 50.40 damage in a A configuration.

That's stock unmodified I bought the A configuration hardpoints have a nice day. Goodbye 100 ton Atlas in about 3 shots with a tag laser.

That's a total unbalance!!!!

Outlaw, on 14 December 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Well first off it doesnt have Artemis, so you dont get the Art/Tag Stack which makes LRMs feel OP right now, not only that the stock layout only carries 2 tons of ammo per launcher, which without the stacking bonus wont be nearly as effective as you are fearing it to be.

yes outlaw it's knee jerkers like this who have convinced PGI to take a full sledge hammer at this... without even testing other design possibilities, you can have your fully customised clanners on a test server at first 12vs12 with obvious results then test it with bigger odds and so on, if it still 6 clanners wipe out 18 IS mechs only THEN do you throw the nerf hammer on them.

nobody understands testing in the field is just as valuable if not more so than the OMG the numbers stuff.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

Easiest fix in the world. Bring back REPAIR AND RE ARM. Problem solved. Run expensive clan equipment, make innersphere cheaper; Fix the R&R to still bennifet the crappiest players. that way we can have all the original clan stats and intelligent game play back.

[Flying Judgement]

Ready your PPC Gauss Rifle AC5s and 10s
clans cant change armor Values nor engine size XD...
sniper warrior online is approaching easy target practice from june 17th.

apart from this i like the ideas they are great they need to be nerfed a bit but now im not to sure i want the Adder any more :\

[Outlaw]

Yeah i miss the days of pulling 1 mill+ c-bills in a match because i wasn't a suicidal {Dezgra} that charged into a fight .

[EvilCow]

I know it is the same suggestion you ignored during closed beta, during open beta, after release. Rework hardpoints with sizes before attempting other things.

Probably I am wasting time but take this as a "we told you".