1978 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

After reading it and thinking about it I think it is a good way to do the Clan mechs. The hard part will be getting it all balanced. But if they do it will work well.

[RapierE01]

Okay i think the only "hardwired" elements on Clan Mechs should be

• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

The other things like Reactors or Armor Point value will cripple them against IS Mechs. Dont forget they need to survive against Mechs fitted with Dual AC20/Gauss, 3x - 4x AC2/AC5, multiple LRM Launchers, Poptarting Assaults and so on

[xXBagheeraXx]

Corbon Zackery, on 14 December 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

The main issues your going to have is weapon boating since you can't get around the tonnage and smaller critical slots. You can't change that format otherwise certain clan light mechs no longer work.

Will use the Puma as a classic example since its a icon medium to assault killer.

Primary:
2 ER PPC
1 Flamer
13 ton weapon package taking up 5 spaces: That allow a lot of flexibility in construction.

IS:
15 ton weapon package taking up 7 spaces: So your already unbalanced by 2 tons.

A: Configuration is 2 LRM 20 2 small pulse:
12 ton weapons package taking up 10 slots leaving even more room for modifications

IS:
22 ton weapon package taking up 12 slots next to impossible to mount on a 35 ton mech.

B: LBX 5, large pulse, 2 ER Medium
15 ton weapon package 8 crit slots

IS: 17 tons 9 crit slots

C: 2 LRM 15 1 Narc M pulse laser since by your own words the clan LRM will have no min range just do less damage this is a instant mech killer slap a narc on CT and shoot away
11 ton weapon package 7 crit slots

IS: 19 tons 9 slots

I don't have to go any farther I've proven no matter what you do to change the weapons weight and critical slots will still unbalance the game to a point were this will be a total fail without some heavy modification to the Omni mechs themselves.

Your going to have to rewrite the whole Clan chart, and that changes every Omni mech and configuration thus you lose the classic clan feel.

:rolleyes:Unless you want 35 ton mechs running around with the same firepower of 65 ton catapult.
Right now you have in the Puma A configuration a 35 ton mech running around doing 50.40 damage.

Huge damage unbalance!!!!!!!!! So how your going to fix that without huge clan weapon modification redoing the whole chart thus changing the configuration of the clan Omni mechs its hopeless your not buying a A configuration Puma you will be buying a MechWarrior online facsimile that has a puma skin.

This is not just some oh will quick fix it in a week and fine toon as we go.

What you forget is if there is mix tech, that same 65 ton catapult will be tossing out assault mech firepower. also those puma lrm configs do not carry many free tons for ammo. if clan endo steel is allowed on is mechs there are several mechs that can carry even heavier firepower that wasnt available before due to restricted space. Everyones firepower will go up a good bit IF mixtech is allowed.

[Saber1]

RapierE01, on 15 December 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Okay i think the only "hardwired" elements on Clan Mechs should be

• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

The other things like Reactors or Armor Point value will cripple them against IS Mechs. Dont forget they need to survive against Mechs fitted with Dual AC20/Gauss, 3x - 4x AC2/AC5, multiple LRM Launchers, Poptarting Assaults and so on

Hilarious how we're prospecting this for Clan omnimechs.

Also, disgusting.

xXBagheeraXx, on 15 December 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

What you forget is if there is mix tech, that same 65 ton catapult will be tossing out assault mech firepower. also those puma lrm configs do not carry many free tons for ammo. if clan endo steel is allowed on is mechs there are several mechs that can carry even heavier firepower that wasnt available before due to restricted space. Everyones firepower will go up a good bit IF mixtech is allowed.

You're kinda insulting those who sunk the money for Clan uniqueness. Are configs and looks alone worth the price of each of those mechs? Especially considering you're nerfing already the tech on them?

Edited by Saber1, 15 December 2013 - 01:15 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Why on earth can you not do 10 Clan (two Stars) vs 12 IS (3 lances) as balance instead of nerfing?

Because its a bad idea that will not work

[Asmudius Heng]

A simpler way to do omnimechs is to have them function the same as IS mechs but when you drop to fight IS mechs are locked and cannot change but clan mechs can be modded through a CW campaign.

Make clan mechs simply flexible to the situation they drop into and make the game force IS mechs to deal with whatever map they hit and cannot chop and change mechs.

That is the real way to simulate FLEXIBILITY ON THE BATTLEFIELD ... the mechlab game is already so flexible that the current idea they propose just seems silly and does not address the true advantage of clans.

If you drop into Alpine the IS team should be stuck with limited mechs that do lots of different stuff because they set thier loadout in a refit factory and now its done til they get back.
Clanners would drop in then adjust the best weapons for the sitation which might be long range for alpine for instance. That would make omnimechs valuable ... all this other {Scrap} if missing the damned point.

HOW you engage the enemy from a logistial point of view is part of balance PGI and would make life so much easier if you understood that.

[MalodorousMonkey]

For the most part, I like these balance ideas. I was always curious as to how PGI would handle the balancing of clan tech. THe main thing that concerns me is the inability to modify armor or engine types.

OUt of these two, armor would seem to be the most dangerous to be un-moddable. I say this because if there is a set armor amount for every chassis, then unless everything is near max armor, people will quickly learn which spots are best to shoot at on a mech. Sure we have that to some degree now. Most people know that the ears on the catapults are easy targets, for instance.

However, some of the stock armor levels for these mechs are pretty low, and if, for example, all Stormcrow's had very little leg armor, everyone is going to go for the legs since, incomparison to the torso segments, they have very little armor. This would make the Stormcrow a mech that was very easy to kill because it was doomed to be a mech with very little leg armor. There would be nothing that you could really do to counter this Stormcrow legging since you couldn't just max out armor on them.

And again, the problem wouldn't really be that armor on the Stormcrow legs is low. The problem would be that the armor on Stormcrow legs would be low and everybody would know it. Quickdraws come with little stock armor on the legs, if I'm not mistaken, and are easy to leg if armor isn't increased on the legs. But you don't necessarily see a leggin epidemic for them since it isn't a guaranteed thing that they have low leg armor. For all the enemy knows, they maxed out their legs, so just to be safe, they may just keep shooting at the torsos.

[LoneUnknown]

Russ, Paul, there is so much fail in this it is difficult to know where to start.

You are trying to balance everything within a fishbowl. That is, your vision of the game is limited to nothing more then 12 vs 12 deathmatches, and you feel you must balance all weapons, mechs, and mechanics around this rather limited scope.

But you ignore the metagame. You removed repair and rearm. You refuse to consider any other type of units (armored vehicles, turrets, infantry, installations). You haven't figured out community warfare or planetary siege/control. No market system, no real supply and demand of arms... purchasing and maintaining the most powerful mech is simply a matter of grinding long enough (or handing over RL cash). Game modes lack imagination or any kind of objectives outside of deathmatching and simple capture.

You have ignored and eliminated the very elements of the Battletech universe which create gameplay balance between Inner sphere and clans, and brought the potential of a rich, well made Mechwarrior simulator to being nothing more then a generic 3rd person **** with robots.

Clan technology is SUPPOSED to be more powerful. Period. No balancing required. Why? Because of all the other elements that brought balance. The inner sphere's numerical advantage. The limitations of clan ritualism and honor based tactics. Entrenched home court advantage of a practicality minded, battle-hardened inner sphere vs invading, honor dueling test tube supermen.

By balancing factors OUTSIDE of the match, you do not have to create all these goofy ways of balancing clan gear.

Community warfare and planetary control should have been in place before you even thought about releasing clan tech. Clan vs Inner Sphere should exclusively be part of metagame, not simple matchmaking.

Joining a faction should have an impact on what parts and mechs you have available to you, as well as what missions you can take. Clan players should actually have to invade planets, and in a logical fashion (no jumping straight to Terra). Imagine a mechanic where clan players could "bid" to use the least amount of tonnage possible on a mission, for higher reward. We do not have to always see 12 clan mechs vs 12 inner sphere mechs if you use your imagination a bit.

What about the shelved dropship mode? Give the inner sphere players each more then one mech to fight off the technologically superior clan invaders,

Turrets? Installations? Planetary defenses that can be purchased and upgraded (through CW metagame) which will give inner sphere players some tactical AI defense to add to their arsenals and even things out.

And these are ideas just off the top of my head. Get your heads out of the fishbowl, or use all that money from your new cash grab to hire someone with an imagination.

You guys should have let the Mechwarrior: Living Legends team continue on. They had real vision for how to create a great game in the battletech UNIVERSE. You guys are just ******* the fans off.

Edited by LoneUnknown, 15 December 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

XX Sulla XX, on 15 December 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Because its a bad idea that will not work

Can't be worse than crippled clanmechs. Like someone said...this time the IS will win. No need for three or two versus one, we'll beat them fair and square, mano a mano. I'm currently considering burning all my books because obviously they're not correct anymore.

[Ghogiel]

Mr 144, on 14 December 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Alt Config C comes with JJs....so the obvious "core" to build off....just need to swap for some ballistic sections from the other variants.

Not in timeline.

Need to wait nearly a decade.

[Iacov]

thanks, paul!
getting a glimpse at what you have planned made me rest assured and i'll preorder on monday

but my two cents:
please do NOT change clan tech's tonnage...afaik, you haven't changed IS tech tonnage either
longer beam duration, higher heat...everything's fine, but please keep the tonnage of the weapons/equipement

and my personal hope: please bring a reinforcement pack with the Vulture!!!

[Asmudius Heng]

MalodorousMonkey, on 15 December 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

stuff

This is exactly why they cannot make omnimechs locked in those ways. If ALL mechs had locked stuff it would be fairer but it will be childs play to target the weakpoints of clan mechs once they become known - frustration ensures.

Better game design from the beginning would be to limit just how much the IS could customise from the start but that train has left the station long ago.

See my suggestion above on the only real way to simulate the advantage of omnitech

[Mr 144]

RapierE01, on 15 December 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Okay i think the only "hardwired" elements on Clan Mechs should be

• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel

How do you see that working with inter-changeable body parts? Either.....

1: The locked locations of FF/Endo are locked to the "core" chassis regardless of compents swapped changing the ability to mount the same "size" weapons the original "core" donor could regardless of hardpoints. I.E.....what fits in a location on one "core" will not fit on the "core" of another...regardless of swapping.

or...

2: The locations of FF/Endo crits must be constant across all variants. Is this even possible given the different stock loadouts? Is there enough common free space spanning all variants of each clan mech?


Or....they'll ditch that portion for the already working and coded floating crit sytem already in use and not have to deal with the complex issue of matching the precise 7/7 crit spaces needed across swappable variants.

Edited by Mr 144, 15 December 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Tarzilman]

@Where's UI2.0?

https://twitter.com/...226936996671488

https://twitter.com/...232623147483138

We don't have to discuss about the way of communication. I also don't like, that those news find their way first on plattforms like twitter instead of the official Forums.
At least there's still hope and we'll see if there will be a faster development after UI2.0 is out.

[Odanan]

Tarzilman, on 15 December 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

So many good ideas here. Keep up the constructive criticism instead of all the mimimi.
Today is Dezember the 15. (at least here it is)
Clans arrive June the 17.
Enough time to think about the final clan design.

To think, not to implement.

[r4plez]

Deathlike, on 14 December 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

This balance post is an abomination.


Lasers reference - More ghost heat.


SSRM - "make everything work like chain fired SSRM2s", aka LAZY MODE


LRMs - VIOLATE TT STATS MISERABLY (breaking stock mechs in the entire process).


Paul should be fired for those lazy ideas OUTRIGHT.

Let me post this third time - Poul Inouye sould be fired a long time ago. Every effort that he made in terms of game/weapon ballance made this game worse, this man has no clue how to fix things.



Stop deliting posts its very low.. if you cant handle rage you've made, than why bother opening threads about feedback. I will post this everytime you delete this no worry...

[GODzillaGSPB]

The most funny thing with those locked components is that while many of us were constantly asking for more limitations on IS mechs, as would be canon, and warned PGI about the very liberal hardpoint system and overall ability to customize the mechs as this would cause huge balancing problems in the future, with clan mechs...now these limitations come for clan mechs.

That's so stupid and I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

[GalaxyBluestar]

XX Sulla XX, on 15 December 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Because its a bad idea that will not work

video or is not true. has it been tried, no? then you have no reason to say it can't work.

LoneUnknown, on 15 December 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Russ, Paul, there is so much fail in this it is difficult to know where to start.

You are trying to balance everything within a fishbowl. That is, your vision of the game is limited to nothing more then 12 vs 12 deathmatches, and you feel you must balance all weapons, mechs, and mechanics around this rather limited scope.

But you ignore the metagame. You removed repair and rearm. You refuse to consider any other type of units (armored vehicles, turrets, infantry, installations). You haven't figured out community warfare or planetary siege/control. No market system, no real supply and demand of arms... purchasing and maintaining the most powerful mech is simply a matter of grinding long enough (or handing over RL cash). Game modes lack imagination or any kind of objectives outside of deathmatching and simple capture.

You have ignored and eliminated the very elements of the Battletech universe which create gameplay balance between Inner sphere and clans, and brought the potential of a rich, well made Mechwarrior simulator to being nothing more then a generic 3rd person **** with robots.

Clan technology is SUPPOSED to be more powerful. Period. No balancing required. Why? Because of all the other elements that brought balance. The inner sphere's numerical advantage. The limitations of clan ritualism and honor based tactics. Entrenched home court advantage of a practicality minded, battle-hardened inner sphere vs invading, honor dueling test tube supermen.

By balancing factors OUTSIDE of the match, you do not have to create all these goofy ways of balancing clan gear.

Community warfare and planetary control should have been in place before you even thought about releasing clan tech. Clan vs Inner Sphere should exclusively be part of metagame, not simple matchmaking.

Joining a faction should have an impact on what parts and mechs you have available to you, as well as what missions you can take. Clan players should actually have to invade planets, and in a logical fashion (no jumping straight to Terra). Imagine a mechanic where clan players could "bid" to use the least amount of tonnage possible on a mission, for higher reward. We do not have to always see 12 clan mechs vs 12 inner sphere mechs if you use your imagination a bit.

What about the shelved dropship mode? Give the inner sphere players each more then one mech to fight off the technologically superior clan invaders,

Turrets? Installations? Planetary defenses that can be purchased and upgraded (through CW metagame) which will give inner sphere players some tactical AI defense to add to their arsenals and even things out.

And these are ideas just off the top of my head. Get your heads out of the fishbowl, or use all that money from your new cash grab to hire someone with an imagination.

You guys should have let the Mechwarrior: Living Legends team continue on. They had real vision for how to create a great game in the battletech UNIVERSE. You guys are just ******* the fans off.

can't like this enough, drop ship mode 4 IS mechs PER PLAYER VS 12 clans. that's 48 vs 12. 4 atempts to beat the clanners PERFECT!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 15 December 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Suzano]

Your restrictions for the Omnimechs are complete nonsens, useless and stupid. It seems that pgi have learned nothing in the last 18 months and I think that MWO will finally die with these restrictions and "options".

Edited by Suzano, 15 December 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[Javin]

I am wondering why PGI is worried that everyone will abandon IS tech. Why worry? It happens in every situation that an IS mechwarrior can get their hands on Clan tech. Clan tech is simply better. Let the clans have their tech. Equalize the tech by having the clan drop at 50% numbers/tonnage of IS.