1978 replies to this topic

[Mista Whizzard]

StandingCow, on 14 December 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Seems to me like he totally missed the point of why people are angry. We don't care that the clans are here... we care about the grab deal so close to the last pack of mechs when basic things that have been promised as "right around the corner" multiple times STILL aren't out.

How about you wait to introduce this until UI 2.0 comes out and is good? Or how about until you have all your CW {Scrap} working and ready to go or all the details panned out?

You fix the stuff from this image, and I will MAYBE start to trust you all again:
Due%20to%20spam%20abuse.%20This%20image%20has%20been%20removed.%20Please%20provide%20feedback%20in%20written%20form.

You guys continue to make me ashamed of my Legendary and overlord tags... honestly you do.

**** me, here we go again...

God I hope they start listening...

Edited by Mista Whizzard, 15 December 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[RJF Volkodav]

Balancing Clan tech and IS tech is terrible idea.
Dire Wolf = Atlas? Nice..
TimberWolf = Catapharact? Best idea ever...
StormCrow = ShadowHawk or maybe Kintaro? Ha..

You will ruin Battletech idea in this game with that, i think.
Clans should have superior weapons and superior pilots. Use BV for balancing IS vs Clan games. Use something like 5(Clan) vs 12(IS) matches (and posiibly 10 vs 24 in future).
You could do Clan vs IS battles much harder for Clan pilots (with weight/quantity advantage for IS) to make Clantech usage really hard to boost IS mechs usage (we all remember that IS outnumbers Clans) and leave Clan vs Clan battles with normal balance to leave the ability to use Clantech for fun.
It is still possible to have mixed battles with both Clan and IS mechs in both teams, but balancing should be done with BattleValues depending on pilot ELO, mech type and equipment for both teams. To reduce numbers of Clan mechs in standard matches you could use less XP/Cbills reward for Clan mech pilots. Or matchmaking could generally assign Clan vs Clan games and add 1-2 Clan mech for each side in mixed games to add more specifics to matches.

Reduce possibilities and benefits from Clan tech usage but leave the technology as it is. Let us see the difference between IS and Clan mechs as it was in Battletech, but remove any benefits in XP/Cbills income while using it. Make Clan vs IS games real hard to boost IS tech.

Ideas in your article, PGI, will ruin the game for me and most of my Clanmates in RJF and that is more than 70 peoples playing MWO since the beginning. I cannot even imagine how could be balanced game with 12 TimberWolfs vs 12 Cataphracts be interesting for those who really love Battletech.

Best regards and sorry for my bad english.

[Joe Decker]

LoneUnknown, on 15 December 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Russ, Paul, there is so much fail in this it is difficult to know where to start. You are trying to balance everything within a fishbowl. That is, your vision of the game is limited to nothing more then 12 vs 12 deathmatches, and you feel you must balance all weapons, mechs, and mechanics around this rather limited scope. But you ignore the metagame. You removed repair and rearm. You refuse to consider any other type of units (armored vehicles, turrets, infantry, installations). You haven't figured out community warfare or planetary siege/control. No market system, no real supply and demand of arms... purchasing and maintaining the most powerful mech is simply a matter of grinding long enough (or handing over RL cash). Game modes lack imagination or any kind of objectives outside of deathmatching and simple capture. You have ignored and eliminated the very elements of the Battletech universe which create gameplay balance between Inner sphere and clans, and brought the potential of a rich, well made Mechwarrior simulator to being nothing more then a generic 3rd person **** with robots. Clan technology is SUPPOSED to be more powerful. Period. No balancing required. Why? Because of all the other elements that brought balance. The inner sphere's numerical advantage. The limitations of clan ritualism and honor based tactics. Entrenched home court advantage of a practicality minded, battle-hardened inner sphere vs invading, honor dueling test tube supermen. By balancing factors OUTSIDE of the match, you do not have to create all these goofy ways of balancing clan gear. Community warfare and planetary control should have been in place before you even thought about releasing clan tech. Clan vs Inner Sphere should exclusively be part of metagame, not simple matchmaking. Joining a faction should have an impact on what parts and mechs you have available to you, as well as what missions you can take. Clan players should actually have to invade planets, and in a logical fashion (no jumping straight to Terra). Imagine a mechanic where clan players could "bid" to use the least amount of tonnage possible on a mission, for higher reward. We do not have to always see 12 clan mechs vs 12 inner sphere mechs if you use your imagination a bit. What about the shelved dropship mode? Give the inner sphere players each more then one mech to fight off the technologically superior clan invaders, Turrets? Installations? Planetary defenses that can be purchased and upgraded (through CW metagame) which will give inner sphere players some tactical AI defense to add to their arsenals and even things out. And these are ideas just off the top of my head. Get your heads out of the fishbowl, or use all that money from your new cash grab to hire someone with an imagination. You guys should have let the Mechwarrior: Living Legends team continue on. They had real vision for how to create a great game in the battletech UNIVERSE. You guys are just ******* the fans off.

I agree to this very much. If they got no Money to hire someone with Imagination they could still read the Forums and get Ideas what to do by simply reading the Posts. Nerfing Clan Tech until it is not better than IS Tech will make it IS Tech in the End. Boring. On the other Side - as long as it is and even only a minimum better than IS Tech it will make IS Tech obsolete. You can only balance these Things when you change the basic Conditions in different Gamemodes like I already wrote. And by giving the Clans their unique Feeling and Behaviour.

Just have a Look at the Tabletop again.

Edited by Joe Decker, 15 December 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[Galenit]

I hope the balancing ideas are just ideas they wrote down in 5 minutes after the forum is exploding,
they look like ...
And i hope they are willing to rethink it.

Thats what i think about it:
1. Clan tech should be better
2. No Mixedtech
3. No Mixeddrops (on a team)
4. Dropping in IS will bring you in a IS team, dropping in Clan in a clan team.
5. IS-Team = 12 players = 720 tons, Clan-Team = 8 Players = 480 tons
6. Matching is vs is or clan vs clan or is vs clan basing on the map and cw-status

Balancingtarget: 1 Clanmech = 1.5 IS-Mechs

But i dont expect such simple thing from the inventors of ghostheat ...

Edited by Galenit, 15 December 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[Groundpound Devalis]

Ok so I realize this might be covered already but seeing as I have now paid for every package I feel I am allowed to add my two cents. I have been playing since closed Beta. I also have drastically reduced the amount of time spent playing this game. This game which I desperately want to succeed just isn't enjoyable currently. Ok on to Clan vs IS balance.

You guys are over thinking balance between Clan and IS mechs. This is actually a simple topic. Keep it all TT with very few exceptions. Fancy or creative fixes haven't come close to fixing anything, and fancy fixes will destroy clan play or IS play if you lump them together in your thinking. Two completely separate beasts. Like worthwhile women, treat them each as unique creatures with unique love and caring for each.

Keep visual radar.

Keep Double Armor and increased ammo per ton.

Put Double Heat Sinks back up to double.

No more Heat Scaling nonsense.

Limit customization to Field Modifications for IS mechs. Them having more customization then Omni's is stupid.

Or better yet, say screw you customizers this is a Battletech War Sim, STOCK ONLY. Sure a lot of mech builders will be bummed but this allows for easier "Balance" No more boating!!!! Other than, you know, the natural boaters. Trust me stock is VERY enjoyable. In fact it is done in many sims, I won't name many here. Plus Stock might actually hush most toxic posters about failed attempts at balancing. Bring us back to a skill based game.

Speaking of balance its simple. Give the IS their numbers advantage, this is what made it fair and later unbalanced in IS favor. Giving a numbers advantage takes away all reasons to MODIFY Clan weaponry. See, No minimum range now makes sense for LRMs. SSRMs of larger size would be needed to compete when being swarmed.

Factor in numbers and lighter smaller more devastating weaponry would be needed as to not get over run while being charged. The range advantage is needed to pick some off before being swarmed. This is actually extremely important when factoring in double armor.

People are pointing to MW4 as an example of Clan Over Poweredness. Ok thats completely fair, but clan beam weaponry won't be so OP with the actually brilliant burn time you have implemented, so keep that too. Plus that game had no way to FORCE a numbers advantage on people. You guys are an MMO forcing number limitations is easy in this situation.

Do not add increased burn time to clan weaponry, again number advantage to IS balances this issue. Trust me, having fewer numbers, even when you have more skill and better weapons makes matches tough to win.

There is nothing players can do about being teamed randomly with poor players, technology, wacko balancing, and a match making system based on a computer determining player skill will do nothing to fix that, solo and partial group people will just have to deal with it.

Private leagues used numbers to balance IS vs Clan and it worked beautifully, even in fully customized mech leagues. The only issue with customized league is you always saw the same weaponry. So again I would like to push the idea of ALL STOCK MECHS PERIOD.

I am going to stop rambling on, but this whole balance issue is a no brainer. Table Top rules minus:

-Beam Burn time with Pulse being shorter burn than standard to account for improved accuracy

-Double armor and increased ammo per ton

As TT rules and IS numbers advantages would take care of 95% of "balance issues" things may still seem broken.
Things that MIGHT then need to be balanced:
-Reload/recharge times
-How much of a numbers advantage is enough/too much to make it a challenge on both sides.
- Ways to develope income for the developer (and even with this... STOCK ONLY MECHWARRIOR WAR SIM is a great answer)


P.S. If these sound too simple or hell I don't know too insane, then I have yet another idea. Make private lobbies your next full focus. Private Lobbies will allow private leagues to pop up and THEY CAN find a way to balance whatever you screw up, minus that "special" heat scaling.

P.P.S again... Stock only and TT for everything is a great solution here. Fixes all balance needs. It would require people to get more mechs for more variety and for filling in unit needs.



Do not make changes to the game just to satisfy the loudest, most obnoxious, rudest posters. They don't care about balance or fair play, they are the single most selfish gamer there is and only want the game balanced in their favor(which surprise surprise isn't balanced). Instead listen to common sense and logic. Remember what Mechwarrior is and keep it what it is.

Edited by Groundpound, 15 December 2013 - 02:13 AM.

[Trystan Thorne]

The balancing of the Clan weapons is the reason, why we really need CW before we get the clans.
I don't want them been balanced. I want I.S. vs Clan battles and then battles could be balanced via numbers (more Mechs on I.S. side).

Sure, mixed Team Battles is something people will always want to. If MWO would follow the example of War Thunder I think most people would be happy.
So have the Mechs weapons have different values depending on what type of match you play.

[Nulnoil]

Quote

This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

Completely customizable spheroid scrap and limited customizable clan tech


You make my day.
Let me guess: favorite "must to read" book in your office is George Orwell's "1984": "war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength"

[dragnier1]

Tried reading through the posts and gave up...too many words...

I'll just put my opinion on lrms. As of current TT values, clan lrms make clan streaks worthless. Why bother with missiles that fire till 270m when i can use others that do the exact same till 1000m?

For this reason i prefer if clan lrms are the same or similar to IS lrms to make streaks worthwhile. Somewhere around 150-180m would be the best.

Edit*
One more thing. Allow armor values to be changed, some omnis in TT were given paper-thin armor. Too flimsy.

Edited by dragnier1, 15 December 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[Joe Decker]

I would also say : Simply give IS Pilots benefits in C-Bills/Clantechloot after unlikely Victories against Clanners for taking up the Role of the IS. Pretty simple and will keep Players stay with the IS.

One Thing that is 100% and what I saw in every other of the dozens of online Games I played : Give Players a Benefit, an Extra, just something as Simple as an ingame Title and they will do it, play it...

Wolfhunter for having killed 100 Clan Wolf Mechs would be a nice ingame Title...

On the other Side - draw a Line - no Player of the IS shall ever be forced to fight Clanners if he does not want to. There need to be Motivations to face them instead.

Gamemodes :

IS vs IS
IS vs Clans
Clans vs Clans

that is what we need.

[Dodger79]

Dear PGI, do you even know about the lore, atleast a bit? With these nerfs the Clans won't be what they are supposed to be anymore. Mainly because throughout your whole balancing-ideas you are missing important point:
- the Clans were not balancend only by behaviour (Zellbrigen) but by numbers, too. There were no fights 12vs12, more likely it was 5vs12
- even more important: the IS-Mechs in MWO have nothing in common with the IS-Mechs at the beginning of the invasion known from the lore. In MWO we already basically have OmniMechs, highly customizable with access to Star League technology. The IS has XLs, FF, ES, DHS, Gaus, Streaks and ER-weapons, too. Not as good as Clantech, but near enough for fair fights considering the Clans fighting outnumbered. With these technology-levels 10vs12 sounds reasonable.

Locking the ClanMechs' armor values and engine sizes would turn them into quite slow, fairly poor armored and hotrunning abominations of the once feared original designs. The Kitfox for example has about the armor of a stock Jenner but moves at under 100 kph, making it an easy target that hasn't the armor to survive more then 1 salvo from nearly everything bigger than itself.

[MILESPARVUS]

These ideas sound interesting. I'm interested to see how they evolve.

Though I would agree with the notion of not changing any of the weights, as that causes all sorts of problems with primes and variants that carry LRMs as part of their initial loadout. I would say the trouble that would cause in making everything work is not worth the effort.

Locking down engines and armour seems a bit harsh as well, even just from a tidiness point of view. Sometimes you have that half ton left over, and you just don't what to do with it.....buff some torso sections, or whatever, assuming armour is not maxed out.

[Miken]

Look at MWLL - weapon mechanic close to TT and not unbalance.

[Demos]

Jsut my 2 cents.

No interchangeablity between IS and Clan Tech.

The basic idea of "adjusting" OP Clan weapons sounds interesting, but don't mess with tonnage and/or slots of weapon systems.
E.G. LRM, give the clan launchers a 'hard' minimum range of 120m (no damage) and adjusting the damage upwards to full damage between 120 and 180m. Increase the cooldown signicantly, e.g. additional 50-67% of IS LRM launchers.

The basic omni idea sounds also interesting, but need a bit more refinement of course.

The clan mechs should be able to change reactor sizes and armor values, at least in a moderate bandwidth, otherwise a lot will be DOA.
The fixed Endo/FF sounds interesting, though.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Most people in this thread are just so out of toutch with reality. I hope you realize that BV does not account for arty strikes and number of mechs to cap stuff with.

Keeping stock engine only is staying true to battletech rules for Omnimechs, they are not supposed to be uber flexible aside from weapon loadouts. Stop bitching that you can't do your 80kph dual UAC20 Clan mechs.


The only legitimate concerns for the TT omnimech system in MWO is the lack of speed for light mechs and the inability to relocate/strip armor and so on.

[DasProjektil]

Thanks for this information. Most of it looks quite reasonable.
I don't agree with the non-customizable armour, but the rest looks ok.
If, in a way, IS-Mechs will be more customizable than Clan-Mechs, so be it. I only think they need to be somehow balanced.
I'm already happy if I can play a good Community Warfare and pilot (or shoot) something that looks like Clan-Mechs .

[Angelrage]

Hello.

Im sad again, you guys there at pgi will **** battletech.
You write shomething fast here cos you are scared that u faild again.

just a question to you dear designers. AND THINK!!!!!

Timber wolf prime (MADCAT) :
2x clrm 20, you say thats 4tons plus cos u think thats good. i stay on this modules only.
this brilliant idea makes the prime variant 79 ton. or you will say that mmm prime variant is 4 tonn armor less?

Guys , think first, and dont just write stupid things fast to us cos you make us more angry.


-u wana make all clantech way hotter cos that need skill to drive? LOL i cant say more than u got some mental trubles
clantech was better cos the pilots menaged heat better? :PPPP omg plz stop this.
-u wanna ballace clantech whit is tech? LOL u just **** battletech, forgot this ****, give us ballanced drops like 8vs 12 or something.
-u got no idea how to make real omni tech into this game, zero. thats bad, u got no skill for your job.U ppl want us to grind 3-4 or more variant from a mech to got all parts we need to set up the omnimech close what was in our mind? really? me/pimpslaps u.
-how you dare to sell a picture whitout any skill, idea,plan,and care in the background to us ????????

Edited by Angelrage, 15 December 2013 - 02:56 AM.

[Saber1]

Joe Decker, on 15 December 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I agree to this very much. If they got no Money to hire someone with Imagination they could still read the Forums and get Ideas what to do by simply reading the Posts. Nerfing Clan Tech until it is not better than IS Tech will make it IS Tech in the End. Boring. On the other Side - as long as it is and even only a minimum better than IS Tech it will make IS Tech obsolete. You can only balance these Things when you change the basic Conditions in different Gamemodes like I already wrote. And by giving the Clans their unique Feeling and Behaviour.

Just have a Look at the Tabletop again.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2500kgm3]

I find it a really reasonable approach. Nothing is obsolete, but the players get more options. The only thing I would suggest is, instead of tweaking weight values of clan LRMs, maybe that weapon system could be balanced by tweaking other variables avaliable in MWO but not in tabletop, such as missile flight speed and flight path.

A clan LRM20 could weight 5 tons instead of 10 tons, so if a mech has the hardpoints and slots, it could bring twice as many LRMs into battle. However, these clan LRMs could have (in addition to the exponential damage curve from 1 to 180 meters and increased heat generation) a sightly slower flight speed, giving more time for their targets to avoid the break the lock, and a "flatter" flight arc, making it harder to hit enemy mech with indirect fire.

Inner Sphere LRMs would be better for indirect fire and hitting faster targets, clan LRMs would be worse against fast targets, less suitable for indirect fire and generate more heat but they would deal some damage from 1 to 180 meters, and you can still bring a HUGE ammount of them to the battle, when compared to Inner Sphere LRMs due to the low tonnage.

[SaltBeef]

I dont know where this rumor is popping up Like inner sphere light mechs were faster than clan lights ,.. That is peer Horsehunch!! A 20 ton dasher can go 217KPH with MASC. ULLERS are and Fenris were not too slow either look at your battletech books again. Also a Uller could load an ultra AC10, Srm 6 srm 4 , ER med, ER sml, pretty hard hitter for a 30 ton light and Even faster with MASC.

[MustrumRidcully]

Deathlike, on 14 December 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

This balance post is an abomination.

Maybe it is, but I imagined it could have been even worse. Still nothing to really give me hope.

Quote

Lasers reference - More ghost heat.

Bad news. Ghost heat is to stay. But who in his right mind actually risks suffering ghost heat? I doubt many people do that. So using this is a limiter will likely not really affect much.

Altering the rate of fire and beam duration will definitely have more effect.

Quote

SSRM - "make everything work like chain fired SSRM2s", aka LAZY MODE

I can live with it, though I wonder how good it will actually work.

Quote

LRMs - VIOLATE TT STATS MISERABLY (breaking stock mechs in the entire process).

Yeah, I really don't see how they'll get to implement this. The Timber Wolf will be the first nut to crack.

I would probably use a mix of lower damage per missile and a longer cooldown for Clan LRMs. And a much flatter flight path. (I don't believe they can remove indirect fire ability entirely, the lock mechanism is not set up for it. But a low flight angle means that most indirect fire will hit into obstacles.



And they don't talk about what they'll do with DHS.