Quoting Paul's post.
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It is due to lack of this rule set, and the fact that forcing players into a fixed way of doing battle would just not be fun, is how Clan Tech really becomes a balance issue. Past MechWarrior titles were primarily single player experiences so over powered Clan Technology was not really an issue. The other titles that had multiplayer components became arms races to get Clan Tech and once achieved, nothing changed from that point on. Inner Sphere technology became obsolete at that point if a player wanted to be competitive in a match. This is something that we do not want to happen in MechWarrior Online. We are aiming to make sure that all types of gameplay are available while keeping all current BattleMechs viable on the battlefield.
I want to ensure you that we will still allow the Clans to have their unique flavor without any type of knee-jerk, heavy handed nerfing. We (the design team) feel that laying out the design approach as we look at the incoming technology would help alleviate some of the concerns you may have while at the same time stir up some constructive discussions around Clans and how they can be a fun and functionally addition to MWO.
Most of us played MW4, you know, where Clan tech was VERY much an issue and was heavily focused on multiplayer, even having MULTIPLAYER ONLY expansions.
Living Legends also addressed the Clan vs IS issue with battle value instead of tonnage as a limiting factor, with IS teams running heavier but with less quality gear. You are wrong out of the gate.
Again, this is untrue. The other games have dealt with this as well and IS units were made to be viable through either later day technology in some games, and making IS stuff "cheaper" to field. The fact is if you give Clan and IS tech to the same person, Clan tech is better in EVERY case because you don't understand WHY it is better beyond the surface, Paul.
You can't figure out how to fix the flamer or narc and as I'm about to show, you don't fully understand what makes Clan tech far, far better in the first place. Also "heavy handed, knee jerk" nerfing is the M.O. of PGI. Hello, Ghost Heat.
Let me make a sincere attempt to educate you. Let's do this.
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Clan Tech – Design Approach
Clan Technology in the BT universe has always been an over-powered set of weapons and BattleMech builds. This encourages an arms race to get to Clan Tech equipment and makes Inner Sphere Tech rather obsolete. This is something we do not want to see in MechWarrior Online and we have decided to take some heavy hitting steps to make sure that this arms race does not come to fruition.
You could, I don't know.. make Clans and IS separate profiles and give the IS a weight advantage in match ups? Or would that be too reasonable for you guys?
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Balancing – Raw Numbers
The key elements that make Clan Tech overpowered include size reductions, tonnage reductions, range increases and damage increases over similar Inner Sphere weapons. The best way to discuss this is to look at some examples.
e.g. 1 – ER Large Laser
Inner Sphere Tech:
Heat: 12
Damage: 8
Range: 570m
Tons: 5
Crit(Slots): 2
Clan Tech:
Heat: 12
Damage: 10
Range: 750m
Tons: 4
Crit(Slots): 1
It is very easy to see how the Clan version of the ER Large Laser is significantly more advantageous than the Inner Sphere equivalent. The Clan ER Large Laser does 2 more damage, has 180m more range, weighs 1 ton less and takes up half the amount of space while maintaining the same amount of heat generation.
There are mechanics already in MWO that help us normalize the impact of this weapon without drastically changing the flavor and uniqueness of the Clan version.
OK, so far we're dealing with fact. Let's see where this goes off the rails.
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As an example, what would will probably be applied to this weapon is the following:
- Reduce the max range but still give it a slight edge over IS tech. Change from 750m to 660m for a 90m increase over IS tech.
- Increase the beam duration of the laser to spread damage over more time.
- Make the Heat Scale slightly higher than the IS version.
What the above changes allows to happen is that the
Clan ER Large Laser still gets a reach buff, still gets to have higher damage, still gets the tonnage and space reduction but requires the player to hold targets longer and it will generate much more heat when Alpha’d. i.e. The weapon still keeps its Clan properties/feel but requires better skill and heat management to operate.
... and we're
off! The space & weight reduction is dramatic enough with the Clan technology, if you plan to adhere to TROs yet, you are already talking MASSIVELY overpowered.
I don't care how much you nerf the individual missiles,
5 ton LRM/20s are going to blow your plan sky high.
The beam duration increase is the only smart thing here.
MORE HEAT SCALING is not what's needed. Do you know why it's not more needed, Paul?
Your most expensive 'mech is a Masakari. It is known for 4 ER PPCs.
Then you punish people for using more than 2. This system has hit Peak Terribleness and we don't need more of it.
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We will be applying this same design philosophy across all Clan weaponry and equipment as it makes its way into the game.
(i.e. Ghost Heat that has NO USER INTERFACE ANYWHERE IN THE GAME) is not the answer to balance the Clans, period. You CAN'T balance them if you throw them into a blender with the IS 'mechs and you damn well know that.
Everything is too light, too small, any actual damage/range upgrades are just gravy.
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Balancing – Weapon System Upgrades
Things start to get a little trickier when dealing with weapon systems that are outright increased in their standard operation. For this example, let’s look at the Streak SRM/6. Yes, we all knew they were coming, and yes, the potential is deadly but let’s take a step back and see what can happen with current mechanics.
e.g. 2 – Streak SRMs
Inner Sphere Tech:- Always hit as long as the target is locked.
- Fires 2 missiles dealing 2.5 damage each (total of 5 damage)
Clan Tech:- Always hit as long as the target is locked.
- Fires 2, 4 or 6 missiles dealing 2.5 damage each (total of 5, 10, 15 damage respectively)
As you can see, this is a much bigger conundrum than changing some numbers like the previous section. This is where we may step out of the comfort zone that some players might not like to make sure we don’t bring in heavily overpowered missile launchers.
The following will probably be applied to this weapon:
- Allow only 2 projectiles to leave the launcher at any given time. SSRM-4 will fire 2 volleys of 2 missiles. SRM-6 will fire 3 volleys of 2 missiles. This will stagger the incoming missiles allowing AMS to take down more if the targeted Mech has AMS.
- Increase the cooldown period of refire on the larger launchers and allow the above staggered shots to happen during this time.
So again, the flavor/feel of the weapon is still there, it’s just going to require better trigger timing and the hope that AMS will not deter your volleys too much assuming that the enemy has AMS to begin with. An additional side effect is that people will be more inclined to carry AMS on their BattleMechs and at the same time, these bigger launchers will need more ammunition to counter the AMS effect.
The second solution of making Streak 4s and 6s have higher recycles is entirely reasonable, but trying to say "You can take all these guns but you can't use them"
has to stop.
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Balancing – New Mechanics
Along with the above 2 sections, another cause for concern is a change in basic mechanics of a given weapon system. In this case we can discuss Clan LRMs.
e.g. 3 – LRM-20s
Inner Sphere Tech:
Heat: 6
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: 180m
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 10
Crit(Slots): 5
Clan Tech:
Heat: 6
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: 0m
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 5
Crit(Slots): 4
The fact that the Clan version of LRM-20s have
no minimum range is a huge problem. What you effectively now have is a Streak SRM-20 available to you if we cut minimum range to 0. The fact that this weapon weighs
half as much and takes up 1 less slot makes this a significantly over powered system.
The following will probably be applied to this weapon system:
- Base heat increase to [7]
- Minimum range stays at 180m but LRMs can be fired. The damage ramps from 0 to 1.1 in an exponential curve. i.e. Damage is minimal in the [0]-[100]m range and increases to full damage between [101] and [180]m ranges.
- Possible adjustment to [7] tons.
Now the weapon system still keeps it “no-minimum” range property and it still keeps a weight reduction and generates a little more heat. Again, this will translate into better piloting skills, fire timing and heat management to take full advantage of the Clan LRM-20.
OK, so now your addressing the earlier point of weight, so what you are saying is you're going to up-ton the stuff in a desperate attempt to make it better. I get it.
It's still a 7 ton LRM/20. That operates like any other LRM/20 but with SOME minimum range and absolutely no other downsides.
That is better, Paul. Flat out better. Not a trade off. Better.
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That being said, when dealing with core values like tonnage or crits, we risk the chance of breaking a standard build in a future Clan BattleMech in terms of its weight capacity or space capacity.
This is why this third area of balancing new mechanics takes the longest time and will have to be revisited now and again.
Now on to a more exciting informational release… I've asked David B. to explain how Clan BattleMechs will be built and customized...
But you JUST BROKE that by changing LRM/20 weights!
Dear Lord I hope the worst is over.
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With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location.
"We don't want Clan mechs to become an arms race."
*gives Clan 'mechs unparallelled flexibility*
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Summary:
We are being very careful when implementing Clan Tech and we hope this "Design Approach" post helps you understand the issues and how we will be dealing with them as we move ahead.
While there are some good balance ideas in this section, they would only work if the Clan / IS were separate factions and did not cross tech.
As it stands all you are doing is putting a band-aid over a bullet wound. Clan Tech is flat out better even after your nerfs and just because it's not SUPER SUPER SUPER OP, merely SUPER OP, does not change anything.
Once you release Clantech into the general population you can either convert to all Clan, or be on the losing end, period, the end. It's flat out better and there's no reason not to use it, who cares if it's not as great as it COULD have been?
Edited by Victor Morson, 14 December 2013 - 02:54 PM.
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Victor Morson, on 14 December 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:
This topic is locked
