1978 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I just wanted to say how thrilled I am by your omnimech implementation as proposed.

I had hoped it'd be limited by base kit with unlimited customization, but your idea about hot-swapping configuration locations really seems like a good way to keep hard points relevant while still allowing for far more creative mech customization with regard to pod space.

The engine rating, armor, IS, etc., limits are not just flavorful, they are crucial to balance. I'm very glad that you are planning to stay as true to them as you are able.

As for weapon balance, if you kept all the stats (range, damage, heat, etc.) the same as the IS versions and just upgraded the Clan weight and space usage that'd probably be simple and still allow the Clans to have a major edge in firepower. This would make a bunch of people angry, I'm sure.

[Karrig Fetladral]

...really I feel that you need to go back over what you have for CLRM's and CSSRM's, for energy weapons....increase the heats...but leave everything else untouched, and you don't have anything on balistics? ....Ulta AC/2/5/10/20 ...and LBX are we going to have ammunition types?

CLRM's shouldn't scale damage up to 180m....its a missle...not a ppc, it does its full damage at all ranges... really...I feel that you should go with how you started off in closed beta, go off the battletech values and see how "we" deal with them and balance from there...just think one or two moves ahead this time please.
also dont "detonate" missles and or balistics once they reach max range, instead let them tumble....if a missle hits....it can still explode and deal its normal damage....where as a balistic wont.

you need to go into more detail on omimech quirks.....is it going to be a feel/lool or is it going to be something that really will affect your mech.

[ssm]

Banshee Bullet, on 14 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

OK PGI, I have a question for you.

If I make a Kickstarter project that accepted donations with the goal of purchasing the rights to the BT IP from you, what should I make the target amount? How much will it ACTUALLY cost to buy this IP? I'm asking seriously here. I bet I can get a fan-made game that will be amazing, just look at MW:LL.
At the very least by making the IP available to anyone who will invest any amount, we'll see tons of low-end games and hopefully a gem worth polishing into the epic mechwarrior game we're all still waiting for.

So... how much?

1) You can either ask somebody about something seriously or do it through gaming forums.

2) MW: LL wasn't amazing, it was just a great mod. Not game, just mod.

I won't even comment on "tons of low end games" You can do things like that (as long as they are non-profit, private projects) even now. Where are they?

Edited by ssm, 14 December 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Galenit]

Swapping part means, i need to have all variants in mechbays.
They have said you can sell the mechs after leveling, but the primevariant.
If you do that, you cant swap the parts.

Or did i read it wrong?

[Thorn Hallis]

Looks good on paper. I'm interested to see if and how this really works out.

[Scratx]

Quote

Balancing – New Mechanics
Along with the above 2 sections, another cause for concern is a change in basic mechanics of a given weapon system. In this case we can discuss Clan LRMs.

e.g. 3 – LRM-20s
Inner Sphere Tech:
Heat: 6
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: 180m
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 10
Crit(Slots): 5

Clan Tech:
Heat: 6
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: 0m
Max Range: 1000m
Tons: 5
Crit(Slots): 4

The fact that the Clan version of LRM-20s have no minimum range is a huge problem. What you effectively now have is a Streak SRM-20 available to you if we cut minimum range to 0. The fact that this weapon weighs half as much and takes up 1 less slot makes this a significantly over powered system.
The following will probably be applied to this weapon system:

• Base heat increase to [7]
  
• Minimum range stays at 180m but LRMs can be fired. The damage ramps from 0 to 1.1 in an exponential curve. i.e. Damage is minimal in the [0]-[100]m range and increases to full damage between [101] and [180]m ranges.
  
• Possible adjustment to [7] tons.

Now the weapon system still keeps it “no-minimum” range property and it still keeps a weight reduction and generates a little more heat. Again, this will translate into better piloting skills, fire timing and heat management to take full advantage of the Clan LRM-20.

Paul, bad idea to fiddle with tonnage. Not when it's not necessary. Timberwolf alone would be overweight on the Prime configuration by 4 tons.

Here is an alternate way of balancing Clan LRMs vs IS LRMs. (I'll use [] too for values that could be moddable to some extent)

Clan LRM:
Clan Tech:
Heat: [6]
Damage: 1.1 /missile
Min Range: [0m]
Max Range: [600]m
Tons: 5
Crit(Slots): 4
Behavior : Shallower trajectory

Notice what I did there? Heat and ranges and trajectory. Clans are all for Zellbringen and never hide from your enemy and such. Why optimize weapon systems for indirect fire if your opponent would never try to hide from you?

Essentially, turn the clan LRM system into one you'd want to use within LOS and far closer to your opponent and also inhibits its ability to hit targets behind cover. You know, like we all used to do in closed and most of open beta. Hide behind a lowish hill, be immune to LRM fire. Which is fair since it's half the fricking tonnage for the launcher, so it's a crippled system in terms of many of its capabilities in return for cramming more tubes.

This gives the IS LRM a real reason to exist, and being a lot like Extended LRMs vs LRMs. Heavier and bigger, but better range and accuracy against long range targets.

Yeah, this makes both weapon systems very different but that's a good thing, isn't it?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Thanks for the update.

I would like for the omni tech to be an optional upgrade. I like the idea of changing hard points in exchange for fixed engines/other equipment. But I'd also like to be able to give up that option to change those fixed systems.

I think changing weight/crit slots should be avoided. I think the clan LRMs could be better balanced through mechanic changes. For example, removing the arcing flight path so they lose their ability to be indirect fire support. Also, making the missiles stream out of the launcher (As seen in MechWarrior 2) would allow for more to be taken down by AMS.

Anyone know if the clans and IS will be able to mix technologies?

[Navy Sixes]

Looks interesting, PGI, thanks for the update. I'm probably going to wait to see what the game looks like in June before I spend any more money.

[rgreat]

Whole idea to nerf clan tech is idiotic and will fail, cause they don't nerf it strong enough to be equal with IS tech.

So we will have some half ***-ed un-canon clan tech AND everybody will still want clan only cause it is better.

Why can't you just balance it with drop tonnage, which is largely canonical?

Every time Paul tries to do balance job he put another weird tricks out of his *** hat (1.4 DHS, double armor values, beefed up heat threshold, heat hell, ghost heat, broken canon stats, etc..etc..), instead of tweaking of safer things like fire-rate, alpha damage or precision...

[Pawn Couch]

I think it may be better to just make the clans ammo heavier.
That way you don't break stock builds.

If i buy it will you build some more servers?
Otherwise i might just go give Riot or Valve some money.
Maybe put fuel in my car for a couple weeks.

Edited by KING PINEAPYULA, 14 December 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Firenze]

Deathlike, on 14 December 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

This balance post is an abomination.

Lasers reference - More ghost heat.

SSRM - "make everything work like chain fired SSRM2s", aka LAZY MODE

LRMs - VIOLATE TT STATS MISERABLY (breaking stock mechs in the entire process).

Paul should be fired for those lazy ideas OUTRIGHT.

They have said time and again, THIS IS NOT TABLETOP. Honestly, Tabletop is ridiculously OP in balance of the clans and I now refuse to play people running clan forces because of it unless there is a good reason (if its a story battle .etc. or its 2 vs 1).
This is a video game, and if it isnt fun for the players, be they new to the franchise or old vets, then they wont play. Simple as.

These proposed changes make a lot of sense, and actually work pretty well as far as I can see in theory. I would like to see it playtested a bit, but these look pretty good at the moment.

[Fate 6]

I'll resist my own urge to be upset, the rest of the forumgoers have done a sufficient job of expressing how frustrating this is, and I commend them.

I want to know why I will have to get 3 mechs that are effectively the same mech just so I can level them for mastery XP. I already hate the current pilot XP system, do we really need to make it more tedious and repetitive? Please, give us a system for clans where we just need to master a single "configuration" to get mastery for a mech.

[Black Templar]

Mead, on 14 December 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

You PGI guys should have implemented BV or BV2 into your matching system from the start, and then a lot of these issues would have been a complete non-starter.

Why was a perfectly workable balance system totally ignored?

I agree. MWLL did a lot of things right in that regard, too

[Kanigit]

Since PGI has opted to include the clans in MWO, I would much prefer a battle value system be used to balance the IS vs Clan matches. The proposed execution for weapon balance will still result in better Clan weapons- if we are going to stick to IS vs Clan (which I sure hope is the case, so we can have some pretense of immersion), 12 v 12 matches should always/mostly go to Clan, which of course means you have made the IS mechs obsolete (which really sucks for those of us who actually prefer IS- I'm not the only one surely). Also sad to see that armor/engine will be fixed, do you fellows not even play your own game? You can't possibly be so out of touch to not realize that several of the chassis in your expensive Clan packages will be dead on arrival if you stick to fixed engine/armor.

[Praehotec8]

Some interesting ideas, but changing tonnage seems like a bad idea, and STOCK ARMOR IN THIS GAME!?!?!!

Imagine how the jagermech would be if they all had to run the stock armor. I don't think I need say anything else to make my point. This idea needs to be thought through a little more.

Edit: okay, also the fact that engine size and torso twist speed/aiming ability is a big deal. Imaging if all mechs ran their stock engine... I worry a little that the clans may be UNDERPOWERED.

Edited by Praehotec8, 14 December 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Whatzituyah]

Kanigit, on 14 December 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Since PGI has opted to include the clans in MWO, I would much prefer a battle value system be used to balance the IS vs Clan matches. The proposed execution for weapon balance will still result in better Clan weapons- if we are going to stick to IS vs Clan (which I sure hope is the case, so we can have some pretense of immersion), 12 v 12 matches should always/mostly go to Clan, which of course means you have made the IS mechs obsolete (which really sucks for those of us who actually prefer IS- I'm not the only one surely). Also sad to see that armor/engine will be fixed, do you fellows not even play your own game? You can't possibly be so out of touch to not realize that several of the chassis in your expensive Clan packages will be dead on arrival if you stick to fixed engine/armor.

ER Small Laser may actually be worth using on mechs. Your also forgeting they can nerf these in different ways like it could generate more heat making them a pain to use.

[Sen]

I'm warily watching this one. The ideas SOUND alright. . not great, but understandable.

Not sure how I feel about omnis with fixed hardpoints [even if I can kinda sorta change those around by cutting the arm off one mech and putting it on another]

But PGI, no more $$$ from me until you give me a GAME to play. CONTENT gentlemen. . mechs are nice, but we need content to PLAY them in!

No content, no $$$

And I'm serious here. Check my badges guys, I'm not one of these 2 day old forum noobs. I bought into the founder's package the day it was announced to support you. I donated with Phoenix, and with Sabre.

I WANT TO SUPPORT YOUR PROJECT. . but you have to give us a PROJECT. The current game is a lot like World Of Warcraft. . if WoW consisted ONLY of Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin Battlegrounds. No Overland, no PvE, JUST those two battlegrounds. Changing a map doesn't do much to alleviate the tedium of the lack of content.

No content, no cash. At this point you're DANG lucky the people in my unit are so awesome, 'else I'd have long since abandoned this title and taken my money to Star Citizen.

At least Chris Roberts has a solid history of 5 star titles. (most of which I've been playing as long as I've been playing Battletech/MW titles, now that I think on it)

You'd better REALLY impress me this Tuesday guys...

Edited by Sen, 14 December 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Helmer, on 14 December 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Just a reminder, this is feedback on the Clan Technology - a design Perspective post. Let's please use this thread on feedback regarding the deign ideas contained there and use the other Feedback posts for their intended purposes ( I.E. Clan Collections - Feedback )

No need to cross the streams.... you never want to cross the streams Egon.

Cheers.

I had to stop reading at this post. Helmer, you know I like you, you're a good guy and you have always been balanced in the way you do business. In this case, you should NOT have posted. Rather, you or some other moderator, needs to take a listing of what's going on, the absolute hatred and vitriol, including from me, and make sure it gets in front of the eyes of these people who have told us -not promised us, but told us- UI 2.0 would be done, and CW Phase One would already be implemented by now, and then Phases Two and Three in the new year. That image everyone's sharing around about the things that need to be fixed -though I would add one or two more things to it, Light 'Mech turn rates and ECM being WAY OP- NEEDS TO BE FIXED, PLEASE?!

The Clan 'Mechs should NOT have been introduced until UI 2.0 and CW were released, and then give us some time to fight, put out a couple-few more Inner Sphere 'Mechs... at least we now know why the Unseens were put in... designed to soften this blow.

Helmer, please, get this in front of the faces of IGP and PGI... they've really screwed up this time, and both this and the Clan introduction thread are absolute proof of that. They ARE NOT paying attention, I don't care what anyone says, and it's time this stops.

[ImperialKnight]

I think the ideas are fine, despite what people are poo-poo-ing about.

Clan weapons are better, that's why they are Clantech, and some stuff are done to keep it from being way overpowered. And people complain. READ THE LAST PART. The lack of ability to change a lot of critical stuff on the mech like engine and armor is a HUUUUUGGEEEE balance mechanic.

Imagine now if you CANNOT change the STD200 on your Centurion or what if I gave you a 50/50 front/rear distribution of armor on your Atlas that cannot be altered, or just 30 points of armor on the CT front of your Jager. Even with better weapons, you will not survive long enough to benefit from them. I'd even be inclined to say, give the Clanners the outright unbalanced weapons.


However, I'm not sold on the money packages of the Clan mechs. They are terrible in value. And I'm going to stop throwing money until I see CW. But that's not the discussion points of this thread.

Edited by knightsljx, 14 December 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[MrEdweird]

Looks good to me.

Pretty much exactly what I expected them to do for the Clans. I simply can't agree with people citing various "rules" as reason to not accept any of these design ideas. BattleTech clan "rules" were never designed to make a direct interaction online game make sense.

Call me crazy but if they intend to keep Ghost Heat / Heat Scale as a measure of Clan balance, I'm really not that convinced that it was ever a bandaid.

Also, I hope they're compensating Alex Iglesias more than sufficiently for this artwork...
Those things couldn't possibly look better.

Edited by Edweird, 14 December 2013 - 04:37 PM.