1978 replies to this topic

[Sudden Reversal]

Sounds like a dog's breakfast.

Being tied to a set engine, armour value and upgrades path will make for some serious limitations and I dare say gimp them outright.

In recompense Clans get to switch if something is in an arm or torso?

This should have been an 8 Clan v 12 IS match mode using close to true clan tech values and capabilities.

What would have been so hard to balancing it around player numbers, rather than crippling the tech and IP?

[SirLankyIII]

The omni-system looks quite interesting, but I'd like to make a suggestion. Would it be possible to make the omni-sections purchasable the same way other weapons and equipment are? It's likely clan variants are going to be extremely expensive and it's a bit much to ask for someone to have to re-buy a whole variant just because they want one or two omni-sections. Make it so that if you want to buy a specific section you either need to buy the variant it belongs to, or you must have at least 3 different variants already owned (perhaps even mastered or whatever the clan equivalent will be).

Also I can see increasing the tonnage/crit-slots of equipment causing all sorts of headaches. Perhaps, at least with the LRMs, rather than increasing the base tonnage of the weapon you could reduce the number of missles per ton of ammo. Maybe rather than 180 for clan lrms, make it 100. You could arguably do the same with streaks, although i think a damage reduction for streaks is probably warranted too (including IS streaks).

I don't have a good solution for crits/tonnage on energy and ballistic weapons, although i can't help but think ballistics need a complete overhaul anyway given the current meta and the incoming expansions of the UAC and LB-X weapon families.

EDIT: Perhaps it might even be worthwhile to make it so engines and armour can be adjusted still since some of the assaults might be seriously gimped by having XLs, and the lights may very well be DOA due to sub 100kph speeds. Low armour, and poor canon distribution may also hold back some mechs (kitfox, summoner, hellbringer etc). That said i think it's still worthwhile fixing endo/ferro and equipment, perhaps even changing the layouts to prevent some of the cheesier builds.

Edited by SirLankyIII, 15 December 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Void Angel]

MWHawke, on 14 December 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

You guys are incredible.. Here you are going on and on about balance and how to do it individually when all you need to do is to implement a value-based system. Stop thinking using your feet and use your brains for a change.

You can't implement a value-based system without giving an advantage in a 12v12 mechanic. What's the solution? 10v 12? Clan tech is MUCH more than 20% better than IS tech. Do you tweak the ratio even more? So you've got one team bestriding the battlefield like giants, while their lesser opponents try to drag them down by weight of numbers. That sounds like tons of fun - for one side. Either way, aside from the people who view MWO as some kind of LARP and prefer the Inner Sphere, players are going to gravitate toward Clan tech, invalidating the IS tech. What do you do? Force people to compete for the privelege of playing the best 'mechs (I am not making that up; it has been suggested) or have some kind of lottery? All of this is overly complicated, punishes some party in the game, and/or reduces the variety of viable options for the player.

The Battle-Value Hand-Waving solution is never thought through when people proffer it as some kind of "obvious" solution. Do yourself the favor of taking your own advice, and use your brain.

For a change.

[DocBach]

Sudden Reversal, on 14 December 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Sounds like a dog's breakfast.

Being tied to a set engine, armour value and upgrades path will make for some serious limitations and I dare say gimp them outright.

that is literally a rule from the Battletech source material - you also couldn't move the location of items like endo steel/ferro/double heat sinks that were in the base configuration.

So Clan players will be able to throw together some pretty crazy offensive builds, but their armor is going to be pretty bad on a lot of the Omnis. (most of the chassis they included in the initial 8 are much better than some of the more paper thin designs like the Vulture or Loki.)

[Dirk Le Daring]

I'm very happy about this. Looks like a good plan.

Love the concept art.

I hereby volunteer to help playtest the clan tech.

Edit: Gonna get a beer and celebrate. Feels like when Founders was first on sale. Shame I'm $40 short, gonna have to wait till Friday. But very exciting. (had to share that)

Edited by Dirk Le Daring, 14 December 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[pbiggz]

Sudden Reversal, on 14 December 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Sounds like a dog's breakfast.

Being tied to a set engine, armour value and upgrades path will make for some serious limitations and I dare say gimp them outright.

In recompense Clans get to switch if something is in an arm or torso?

This should have been an 8 Clan v 12 IS match mode using close to true clan tech values and capabilities.

What would have been so hard to balancing it around player numbers, rather than crippling the tech and IP?

No. Numerical balance will not counteract clan technology, and it will lead to an inevitable exodus to clans for better tech either way. It's a bandaid fix, it simply sidesteps the problem.

[CHH Badkarma]

I remain hopeful that they can pull this off. Though after over a year of playing this game I am very doughtful. Specially the all content being delivered on said date bit. Um, I am still waiting for my scoreboard overloard icon pgi. I do however like that they priced it high for clan packs. Hopefully this will keep everyone from jumping sides into clan factions. PGI, I gladly paid for my overloard pack to help support this game and you still have not delivered all content. I am a clanner through and through and you now have my money for a Warhawk package. Do the right thing, polish it. Balance clan tech, do not neuter it. Fix ghost heat for stock high alpha builds like the awesome and warhawk. make it right when you deliver these packs. With what you are charging for them you would only have excuses, not "reasons" to not deliver them as promised

Edited by Jason Radick, 14 December 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[Tolkien]

Sudden Reversal, on 14 December 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Sounds like a dog's breakfast.

Being tied to a set engine, armour value and upgrades path will make for some serious limitations and I dare say gimp them outright.

In recompense Clans get to switch if something is in an arm or torso?

This should have been an 8 Clan v 12 IS match mode using close to true clan tech values and capabilities.

What would have been so hard to balancing it around player numbers, rather than crippling the tech and IP?

I think everyone has known that the clans would be hard to balance from Day 1:

Make them as strong as they are in the source material and the players will flock there.
Make them NPCs and they lose the 'clanner' audience.
Make them too weak and no one buys them.

So they're stuck in this self imposed limbo of trying to make them just bad enough to be just good enough to be just complicated enough to.... what? Sell huge without being overpowered?

Let's not even think how badly the clans overcomplicate 'CW'.... I'm sure PGI hasn't. Can clanners take Merc Contracts? Are the clan borders fixed so the middle invasion lanes can only possible attack 3-4 systems? Do the ghost bears just punch Kurita in the stomach all day? Can Liao attack Davion even while they're allied?



Reading Paul's post on balance with the uptonning of LRM launchers (going back on something they again said they would never do - invalidate stock builds) is just another sign that they are making this up as they go along. Also a post on a Saturday? This is clearly clumsy damage control over the $500 golden whale hunting.

[Aim64C]

DCM Zeus, on 14 December 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

[condescending post assuming we know nothing of omnimechs]

Well, that's all fine and dandy, buddy.

Would you care to revisit the rules regarding 'standard' mech customization?

That's right. You can change just about anything - assuming you send them back to a suitably equipped factory.

Depending upon which rule-book you look at, even omnimechs can be reconfigured in this manner.

The way this game currently works - there is little practical venue to implement the distinction between standard and omnimechs.

If this were a real-time persistent battlefield environment - an omnimech could be reconfigured on the fly at a suitably equipped station. You could, within the same 'drop' - go from a short-range to a long-range configuration after repelling invaders - then carry on with your mission.

While, lore-wise, reconfiguring took a matter of hours - it could be done in the field, which is what we are talking about simulating, here.

That's radically different than standard mechs - which could not be refitted in the field and could only undergo limited modifications at intermediate level maintenance. Depot level refits are what we enjoy between each drop.

Which completely invalidates the concept and utility of an omnimech.

[AEgg]

Excepting modifying tonnage on weapons, most of these changes make sense. Changing tonnage just doesn't work. (And you did it once before with TAG and reversed it, so why change it now?)

I sincerely hope you can't ever modify armor, HS, or engine values in clan mechs. And there shouldn't be cross tech for at least a year or two. That alone should help balance them. If clan mechs have to fit within the current heat system with stock HS, then that may very well balance them by itself.

Hopefully clan mechs will have somewhat restricted hardpoints (i.e. no free space on the default configuration). Otherwise swapping out parts will likely have much the same effect as IS customization.

And for the sake of at least a mild adherence to lore, matches really should be clan vs IS or clan vs clan or IS vs IS. Mixing chassis on a team really doesn't make sense.

[Lucky Moniker]

Nerfing clan tech to this extent will drive off a large percentage of your loyal fans that play as clans. I for one will simply ask for my refund and be on my way if things do not turn around. This is not an idle threat or a whining child. This is not the game I paid for, I feel cheated. So unless the clans keep at least half of their origanal flavor (any form of technological superiority) I will just have to find a better game. One that won't cost me $240 just to get the toys o want, and actually get what I want rather than this bastardized version

[ChallengerCC]

Lucky Moniker, on 14 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Nerfing clan tech to this extent will drive off a large percentage of your loyal fans that play as clans. I for one will simply ask for my refund and be on my way if things do not turn around. This is not an idle threat or a whining child. This is not the game I paid for, I feel cheated. So unless the clans keep at least half of their origanal flavor (any form of technological superiority) I will just have to find a better game. One that won't cost me $240 just to get the toys o want, and actually get what I want rather than this bastardized version

Then cya Lucky, bye have a nice life and some nice tabletop rounds with your friends.

I personally really like the new concept. Well done !
The old tabletop rules are totally historical grown {Scrap}. It dont fit in modern times MW needs to change. So well done PGI.

(Why is there no Vulture in that Clan Mech overview?)

Edited by ChallengerCC, 14 December 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Rovertoo]

These ideas are stellar! I'm kinda shaky on the 7-ton LRM thing, like most people, but everything else is sound. I especially like the 'duration' theme around the clan weapons, requiring pinpoint aim and crazy skill to fully utilize the Clan's superiority. Would this apply to Autocannon's as well? Will Clan ACs throw out multiple smaller rounds? Cause that'd be wicked! Maybe an LRM balance thing could be similar to the SRM fix, maybe the LRMs fire out of their racks in a kind of stepped pattern, say the LRM 20 fires (take on the Mad Cat's 5x4tube racks) 5 groups of 4 LRMs in rapid succession?

As for the mech 'guts' being hardwired, I think that is a very good balancing decision. I worry that maybe armor might be a little low, but that could be changed, or maybe it's not even an issue. A locked in speed hurts my light-pilot heart though. But it sounds amazing!

(Can't wait to be invaded!)

[EoRaptor]

This is super important for people to understand. This statement:

Jonas, on 14 December 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

I have mixed feeling about this. I like the look's of the Omni's the cost is way out of line. But I assume the cost is a reflection of how much they are short on what they need to finish the game.

is completely false. Prices are set based on what a company thinks somebody would be willing to pay (the 'target market'), NOT on any cost of production/distribution type of calculation. Once a price has been determined, only then will a company investigate whether the product can be made for enough less than that cost to meet the needed profit target.

Do not think, ever, that what you see as the listed price for something has anything to do with the actual cost of production of that product.

We taught PGI we would be willing to spring for large packages of items based on previous experience with the brand. Founders and Phoenix both showed that items, not content, was a good draw of income, and the company got used to these surges in cash on hand. They are now addicted, and more and more packages like this will be appearing. They've also responded to demand by raising the profit built into each item, trying to find a balance between production cost and selling price.

The clan package is just the next step on that road. Note also that information about how the product works only appeared with the product itself. It's simply part of the package. Without a reason (driving interest and sales), PGI is simply not going to communicate anything meaningful about the game. For them, anything that isn't tied to the cash injection is deemed unprofitable and discarded.

We sowed this ground, and this is the harvest.

[Milocinia]

I was under some sort of impression that (within reason) most clan tech would keep all its flavourings and it would simply be 8 vs 12 on the battlefield.

But hey, it's obvious I know nothing about balance. I'm just super happy we have someone as awesome as Paul Inouye on the job who is clearly an expert on how to balance this game using ghost heat and gauss charging.

[tucsonspeed6]

Not even going to bother reading this thread since it's probably loaded to the gills with phony outrage.

I just came to say that while this wasn't the balancing I was expecting, I find it to be an acceptable trade-off. I was really hoping for some form of zellbrigen, but I get that doing so would only add another complicated layer to new players. I actually like the idea of requiring more skill in firing the more powerful weapons. What worries me, however, is that while an average player like me will find the tradeoff to balance our damage output during a match, there are plenty of skilled players who will pick up the clan tech with no problems. I imagine in competitive play, the examples of balancing more power to require more skill will just result in more power.

Also on the omni-mech designs: It's definately more balanced than the MW4 interpretation of omnis. I was a bit worried that anyone could just load up on all balistics, but limiting our options on engines, armor, etc might make up for it. I'll reserve final judgement until I see it for myself next summer, but at first glance it sounds fair.

[Mead]

Void Angel, on 14 December 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

You can't implement a value-based system without giving an advantage in a 12v12 mechanic. What's the solution? 10v 12? Clan tech is MUCH more than 20% better than IS tech. Do you tweak the ratio even more? So you've got one team bestriding the battlefield like giants, while their lesser opponents try to drag them down by weight of numbers. That sounds like tons of fun - for one side. Either way, aside from the people who view MWO as some kind of LARP and prefer the Inner Sphere, players are going to gravitate toward Clan tech, invalidating the IS tech. What do you do? Force people to compete for the privelege of playing the best 'mechs (I am not making that up; it has been suggested) or have some kind of lottery? All of this is overly complicated, punishes some party in the game, and/or reduces the variety of viable options for the player.

The Battle-Value Hand-Waving solution is never thought through when people proffer it as some kind of "obvious" solution. Do yourself the favor of taking your own advice, and use your brain.

For a change.

It's pretty clear you have no idea how BV works or how long it's been proven by actual gameplay, so how about let the adults have the conversation and you can sit there and maybe learn something.


For a change.

[Scratx]

Aim64C, on 14 December 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

It's going to be more frustrating than you realize.

Think you're going to put two CGauss on the DireWolf?

All configurations will likely have just enough DHS that you cannot move or remove to prevent that from happening.

They are going to have to resort to such gimmicks in order to prevent the entire game from becoming dominated by Clan mechs. Though if they allow mix-tech, much of the game will gravitate toward the IS mechs, at this point.

Actually, the Dire Wolf doesn't even use Endosteel or Ferro-fibrous. It has 41 free criticals and 50.5 tons of pod-space. Yes, I can put in 3 gauss and still have enough room for ammunition and some energy weapons for those 15 built-in DHS to get cranking.

Now, whether I can actually find a side torso with a ballistic hardpoint is what will determine whether I can fit in that many gauss rifles...

Edit : Well, the B variant has 2x UAC2's per side torso, so that's settled!

Edited by Scratx, 14 December 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[100 Tonne]

dont all clan mech run xl engines? wont that make the clan mechs (at least the heavy and assault ) have a big disadvantage.

[Wraithguard]

Considering a lot of the clans used physical shielding or hood shielding on most of their weapons, why not allow for the noticeably higher damage on weapons, coupled with the moderate heat increase. Then, rather than increased spread over time, and allow the weapons to be more easily damaged by either a reduction of weapon hitpoints... or increase chance of disabling a weapon when the housing body part is hit.

I mean, clan mechs didn't have hardwired hardpoints, they were more hastily built/lower armor for the ability to produce them rapidly and for the modular ability of the omnimechs.