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Clan Technology - A Design Perspective - Feedback


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#661 Igorius

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:17 AM

View Postdwwolf, on 15 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

People forget that eventually we will have CW and repair times for mechs should factor in there, atleast some of the time. ( probably not far from WoT model ) and Omnimechs should have significant advantages there.


Your optimism is refreshing, but Repair and Rearm was a failed concept that they've already removed once. Also, Community Warfare is still in the nebulous stages of development. All speculation at this point is simply that: speculation. We know very, very little about either Clan technology (this post is what they would "LIKE" to do, not what they're working on) or Community Warfare.

#662 Dulahan

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:20 AM

Personally, at least in the LRM side of things. I think the fix should be to cleave closer to Canon and make them 'dumb' fired.Which in Canon, they ARE! I just finished reading the first 60 novels over the last year, the only time they ever 'lock on' is when there is TAG or NARC to help. Otherwise it is Dumb Fired.

That would solve two issues, the first being giving some additional use to TAG and NARC. Especially NARC. But second? The 'close range' LRM issue with Clan LRMs would make more sense too. Then it wouldn't be 20 Streaks at Close Range, instead it would be 20 SRMS that do individually less damage. Though if you've TAG or NARCed, well... different issue.

I also second the calls to change Autocannons to a stream of shots instead of the current single shot bullets. Again, that's how they are in the fiction and canon, not one shot BOOMS. That's for Gauss Cannons and PPCs. I'd think something similar to say, Pulse Lasers would make the most sense. Then we solve the AC/UAC issue a bit better too.

Otherwise, I like some of the other ideas. Though do agree that not being able to swap engines and tweak armor is likely to make the Clan Mechs flat out inferior, especially in the Light and Medium brackets. I can see a lot of heavier mechs not being very disadvantaged. But say, the Uller? At 97kph? When virtually every IS Light build is going 130-150 kph? The Clan lights are going to get creamed. Without the necessary speed to let them compete with the Big Boys.

#663 Tolkien

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:20 AM

View Postdwwolf, on 15 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

People forget that eventually we will have CW and repair times for mechs should factor in there, atleast some of the time. ( probably not far from WoT model ) and Omnimechs should have significant advantages there.


Based on what? They have failed to deliver any of the core content they promised founders back in summer 2012.

#664 Smoke Jagaur MAX

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

Hey, I've been playing every Mech Warrior game since MW2. Being a Warhawk specialist to make that mech playable this must be done: The only reason that Clan Tech is more heat is because we have Double heat sinks that do 2.0 heat and are 2 critical slots. I'm OK, with the fixed Armor and other things, but IF you do not let us have the previously mentioned heat sinks to counter the heat increase like every other MW title. We will be the laughing stock of IS players that just REAR kill US ALL DAY, and on top of that NO new player will be able to even play a Clan mech right! On top of that all the PRO teams I see will still be using some IS weapons. Which is just dumb if they are in a CLAN... I am OK with 10 Clan mechs vs 12-14 IS mechs. I suggest different game modes for each version of the Varied Fairing of Clan Tech I know that might get confuzing, but This would be a way to Please all players. For the Cost of the Clan Mechs, especially for the Masakari Pack I believe we deserve this at least.

As for people that are upset about IS tech and how it's glitchy. Leave that to the proper thread. I'm sure Clan ERppcs, Gauss Rifles, and Ultra AC20s will not register damage 1/4th of the time too. =_=

The other option 1 Clan mech vs 1 IS mech making that fair: Have you guys seen the Fixed Armor for Clan mechs? The Rear armor is almost nonexistent. This game has become so high speed because of us Clan players already making our mechs Clan speed that the IS has already adjusted to it, so unless we have the normal weight weapons and no armor or engine changes we will probably be killed easily by PRO / Good Group teams... MW4 had the dumbed down version of what you’re talking about, and the only reason we lived was because of the double heat sinks 2.0 for a double heat sink. In Beta when you guys had this. You claimed people "died" too fast, but now everyone is Up sped so I doubt you will have the same result.

Other things to consider the details: For weapons 8 omni slots to place where you want them. This would be for assaults and you'd lower for each weight class. And let’s say a Jagermech has 8 weapon slots because it's a BEAST in this game. The Hellbringer(Loki) would have 8 placeable omni slots to match it. And it would have the fixed armor and engines, while the Jager would be able to have faster engines and more armor most of the time than its Clan opponent. DO NOT forget that these are CUSTOM IS mechs that are already as nasty as some Clan mechs. Stock vs Stock should be fair, but I don't want to see us Clanners getting *****/weaker because we were made fair against stock IS mechs and nerfed when we have to fight Custom IS mechs...Thank you for your time reading all of this.

#665 Draxist

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

DISCLAIMER: I don't necessarily like the way PGI handled the clans, I am just giving feedback to hopefully make this game better. dont believe me? here you go

back to feedback:

agreeing with everyone here on the current mechanics in development for the clans, this doesn't seem quite the way to do it.

for instance on weapons:

do not change the weapon tonnages or slots taken up, that will only go to break stock builds and restrict you from adding in mechs that BELONG in lore, if you are trying to stick as close as possible to it as you say. further more this will just anger the player base more that "what should be available" isn't simply because balancing the clans meant ditching whole mechs, let alone configurations of such

sub responses:
--lasers: good idea for slight increase in heat for range and damage over time for the clan lasers. makes them better than IS ERLL while not completely making IS tech obsolete

--SSRM's: I could go either way on this, it technically gives the power of a SSRM6 while not doing a massive wave of death shot, and still only takes up ONE hardpoint restriction.

--LRM's: again either way. I agree with the idea of preventing SLRM20 boats that have no minimum range. the scaling damage however will be painful game engine-wise, and I'd bet my Atlas that the other reason the scaled damage for min range PPC's was removed was not just for the sake of weapon balancing, but also for reducing in game calculations (minor I know, but every little bit helps). keep working on it.

so we REALLY need to hear about AC's, cause right now that is a meta weapon, and brand-spanking new Clan AC's are gonna make heads roll when they come out.

specifically on mech customization and hardpoints:

cool ideas, it keeps the omni mechs customizable while still keeping a unique flavor. not too sure how much I like the idea of "locked" hardpoints for armor, FF, ENDO, and DHS though, because that in some ways KILLS the ability to be unique and play a desired role. then again, people say that necessity is the mother of creativity and invention. if someone needs to find a way, they will. keep working on it and take advice as it comes in.

the sticker is locked armor numbers. that just can't be, as everyone here has already stated, TT values do not hold in this environment where people can min/max to their hearts content. we need control of those numbers to adapt accordingly.

I agree with everyone that one HUGE balancing mechanic that needs to be implemented is CLAN VS IS by way of 4v5 10v12 matchups, its one very simple yet effective way to keep clan tech under wraps while minimizing advantage of clan tech. agreed that none of that accounts for player skill and no player will stick to pure clan combat rules, but that just goes to show that we need better matchmaking overall to balance skill and allow players to play against people they know are their caliber.

Battle Values is a very possible way of balancing matches, and you need to look into that.

one idea i have for "purchasing" omni mechs:
my idea works along the lines of "Tabula Rasa" or blank slate. purchasing an omni mech means having the option to buy a base chassis minus all the fancy weapons and stuffs. the omni would have pods relative to a configuration or none at all, and then pods for swapping in and out can be purchased individually from another omni mech. so you have the D config, and the left arm has two energy slots in that pod? well just pick up the C configs left arm which has that ballistic missile combo you want, minus a whole new mech. if you want all of the pods in that config? just buy the whole config as another chassis.

honestly though, the whole pod thing isn't all that bad. sure we don't get the full ability to play "true" omni mechs, but I think I can see the balancing benefits in the long run


to everyone who is ready to bash on my feedback please read below, if you aren't about to hate on me, then don't read this, its not meant for you:


TT values never will work in an active environment where you can pick and choose what you are shooting at. the whole point of TT values and rules work because they have a randomization factor aka DICE. translate that kind of randomness to an FPS where you have pin-point accuracy and much more free range over customizing chassis, and get back to me on that.

that issue is WHY we have so many balancing challenges and needs for balancing clan tech. TT to FPS does not translate easily at all. it needs tweaks and just doing ISvClan matches will not suffice. we all saw how wonderful the alpha meta was before with just limited hardpoints, imagine that now with NO RESTRICTIONS WHATSOEVER!!!! oh a Dire Wolf with 3 AC20 and JJ?? WHY NOT!!!! we already have issues with boating meta even with the abomination that is Ghost Heat, lets not exasperate the problem even more with true restriction-less hardpoints.

to any new and inexperienced players joining the game if we had true omni mechs would be a hellish nightmare; going into a fight and facing omni mechs min/maxed by some of the veterans (with or without PGI's amendments to Clan tech) here is just scary enough for me.

"well they shouldn't be playing against vets then" you and I both know that the matchmaker will dump newbs with vets from time to time, and more than any of us would like to see.

my whole point is this: besides saying "XYZ is {Scrap} you shouldn't do it PGI", try to look at the whole picture, and then give some feedback saying "I dont like this because ABC, instead try this".... anything else will just get ignored and stirs up more vitriol among the community here where we don't need it. what we need is a unified voice giving them advice.

"it never worked before talking to PGI" keep trying, and do what many shamed founders and phoenix buyers like myself are doing, act with your wallet and don't buy in till we see the things in-game that are needed like CW and U.I. 2.0. action speaks louder than words.

Edited by Draxist, 15 December 2013 - 11:32 AM.


#666 kravkalash

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:34 AM

Okay, on the odd chance that this really is the right place for constructive feedback on balancing clan tech:

- I don't think that it is possible to bring clan tech on the same powerlevel as IS tech without heavy handed nerfing. Like it or not, the only purpose of clan tech is being way more powerful than IS stuff. Tuning every number down to IS equivalents would be an option, but as has been pointed out before, there are some numbers that should not be touched (crit slots, tonnage), so to counter that the nerf would have to go even further and tweak damage etc below IS levels - I don't think anybody would want that. My conclusion: Nerfing the power level as the only balancing mechanism will not work.

- Restricting omni mechs in the way proposed is generally an good idea. Given the fact that the current mechlab already allows way more customization than TT, not restricting the omni mechs would be horrible. The mechanism with selectable slot-configurations for each part of the mech sounds good to me.. It will take some thought when designing the exact configurations, but I think this will work fine. Maybe even restrict the possible selections even more (like "must have same subtype in LT and RT, must have same subtype in LA and RA) to better control the flexibility. This is something that does not only concern the IS vs Clans, this is also important for Clans vs Clans because no restrictions would brake the game (5xUAC20 and the like, destroying everything in ~2 seconds). Conclusion: I approve of the approach presented.

- Giving clan tech its own "flavor" is somewhat a fluff concern, although it does tie into balancing. But flavor only goes so far - if it strongly reduces the DPS or alpha capability of a weapon, it's no longer a question of flavor, thats nerfing. I really appreciate when different factions of a game "feel" different when playing them, but this should not be tied to a severe penalty when playing one faction. Especially not if said faction is supposed to be super awesome - that would not feel right. Conclusion: Flavor is good, as long as its purpose is to flesh out different styles of playing. It should not be used to do the heavy balancing.

All in all I think there is no good way to introduce clans into the current game without providing some additional mechanisms. My ideas are:

- Separate Clans and IS games. May not be the nicest way, but its quick and easy and leaves room for improvement without creating huge balancing systems and other overhead.

- Allow Clans vs IS to be asymmetrical. Find other incentives for the IS players, like higher rewards in CBills and XP, elusive Loyalty points and what not. Design asymetrical Game modes, like 5 vs 8 Assault, or 10 vs 12 where the clanners have some objective which has to be fulfilled within a certain time. Make the clanners defend a convoy. Give the IS dudes some off map backup, like artillery bombardment, orbital strikes, air strikes, what not. Give the IS side on map backup, like defensive turrets, tanks, infantry platoons, allow them to place mine fields before the game...

TL;DR: Clans are meant to be OP, there are ways beyond nerfing them to make games somewhat fair and enjoyable.

Edited by kravkalash, 15 December 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#667 arghmace

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:34 AM

Increasing the heat scale on clan ER LL means squat. As long as you use just 2 of them, they are OP compared to IS lasers.

#668 Jordan Stockman

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostDeath Toll007, on 14 December 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I have played this game as a founder since closed beta. I will quit if you execute as briefed. I have no interest in spending my money to buy the clan mechs as you have briefed. I have already spent $335 on this game, if this is where it is going... I'm out.

You are about to ruin mechwarrior for another decade, the only good news is, once you go under and have to sell the rights, someone else will get them super cheap and will have a chance to do it right.

LISTEN TO YOUR F***ING PEOPLE/CUSTOMERS!!!!

This all the way.
Ive spent more money then i ever thought i would due, in part, to picking laser variants when i first began. Big mistake. So i spent real money to get Mechs with Ballistic HP to be an actual threat, without overheating constantly (yes i laser chain fire). Now you tell me my Clan lasers are going to be EVEN HOTTER and take LONGER to deal the damage? Plus, with UI2.0 not out and many unfulfilled promises lingering in the void and Mech packs you want us to pay upwards of $240 for is rediculous. Im a very laid back guy, but this is a terrible way for this game to go. Ive been doing all i can to pull people to this game, hoping it would turn out to be great and succeed in revitalising the Mech franchise, and you give us Clan tech that is of less use than IS weapons. Lower the grind a bit, nerf the Clan tech JUST A BIT, get rid of the ghost heat to make energy usable, and increase the price of Clan tech to offset its strengths.
I am disappointed. Ive been so stoked for Clan Tech, and now I dont know why i was. Definitely wont be getting any more of my money, or any of my friends money, as they share my current views and opinions. Turn this around for the better please. Thank you.

#669 Khobai

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:36 AM

1) Not allowing engine customization HAS to change. Light mechs like the kit fox simply wont be competitive unless they go 151kph.

2) Not allowing armor customization HAS to change. Heavy mechs like the Thor simply wont be competitive with 54 center torso armor.

#670 Dashwood Fox

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:44 AM

View PostNiko Snow, on 14 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:


This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

-The engine type and rating



So basically all the IS lights (and mediums) are going to be able to run circles around the Kit Fox and Adder? The Adder and Kit Fox will also be sitting ducks against any other 'mech. If you significantly reduce the current torso twist speed on heavies and assaults this might be acceptable. Otherwise this is completely unacceptable. Kit Fox is one of my favourite 'mechs and I'm sad that it's going to be DOA.

#671 Deathlike

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:48 AM

View PostDashwood Fox, on 15 December 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

So basically all the IS lights (and mediums) are going to be able to run circles around the Kit Fox and Adder? The Adder and Kit Fox will also be sitting ducks against any other 'mech. If you significantly reduce the current torso twist speed on heavies and assaults this might be acceptable. Otherwise this is completely unacceptable. Kit Fox is one of my favourite 'mechs and I'm sad that it's going to be DOA.


The Lolcust will have company!

#672 Druire

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:52 AM

Even if you have some nice ideas how to make the advantages of ClanTech come with some disadavantages to balance it...
I honestly do not think it will work.
As soon as you have only a slight imbalance you will destroy the game because then all players will join Clan side on the long term or just quit. As the clans have a good reputation throughout players anyway this makes it even easier to kill game balance in terms of how many players will join which side.

I would just add any tech for all or no one just in order not to get the small imbalances which are simply not avoidable.

My two cents on this

Edited by Druire, 15 December 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#673 HiredGun

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:53 AM

An easy way to balance 90% of the issue would be to give the IS mech access to Clan weapons/equipment. I know it is not canon, but I think that got thrown out about a year ago anyways.

#674 Dashwood Fox

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:54 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 15 December 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:


The Lolcust will have company!



Pretty much. Though I would argue that at least the LOLcust still has capping potential.

#675 Deathlike

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:58 AM

View PostDashwood Fox, on 15 December 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Pretty much. Though I would argue that at least the LOLcust still has capping potential.


So, a Spider or Commando can do the same? (One trolls more than the other, you figure out which)

Neither goes down as a fast as a Lolcust on a direct hit by Arty.

#676 Khobai

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:02 PM

Quote

An easy way to balance 90% of the issue would be to give the IS mech access to Clan weapons/equipment. I know it is not canon, but I think that got thrown out about a year ago anyways.


It would also make every IS weapon obsolete. I would rather see asymmetrical balance anyway... makes the game far more interesting IMO.

#677 Slepnir

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:03 PM

Well after reading through the clan balancing thread I can say, you totally missed the boat PGI your doing all this extra work to modify clan weapons to keep game balance.....when all you needed to do was maintain the numbers imbalance. clans operate in stars of 5 as you well know, as a rule of thumb for the last 25 years or so to balance the clans has been that a clan star is an equal match for TWO inner sphere lances. clans should be outnumbered- problems solved no need to nerf or modify any weapons systems, you can leave them cannon and move on. just make it clear if you play clans you better be a damn good pilot to go along with your good mech, since you will always be outnumbered.

Edited by Slepnir, 15 December 2013 - 12:04 PM.


#678 DocBach

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:04 PM

I wonder how ECM will be handled? It's suppose to be mountable on any OmniMech; being able to ECM up all the Clan lights and boat tons of Streak SRM6's will make Clan light 'Mechs pretty hard for even fast Inner Sphere 'Mechs to kill, even if they are slower.

#679 VanillaG

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:05 PM

View PostKhobai, on 15 December 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

1) Not allowing engine customization HAS to change. Light mechs like the kit fox simply wont be competitive unless they go 151kph.

2) Not allowing armor customization HAS to change. Heavy mechs like the Thor simply wont be competitive with 54 center torso armor.

The fact that the Clan mechs are not automatically just better means that the balancing in working to some degree. The IS will have a mobility advantage and the Clans will have a firepower advantage. It remains to be seen what how that plays out when CW and the additional game types come out.

#680 Ryoken

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:06 PM

View PostFetladral, on 15 December 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Posted Image

(I didn't actually buy a gold mech or any for that matter. That's just my (and probably most everyone else's) official response to anyone who buys one.)

NO it is not! It is just showing that you and some other ppl here are envious and/or jealous minds that can not comprehend how gold mechs got money into a game we all like to play!

These Mechs offer no advantage over the other (lot cheaper) prime variants - so there is no pay2win - it is purely cosmetical! Thanx and grats to PGI for this fair gesture!

Unless those gold mech owners start bragging it into everyones face - which again is only possible if you are envious/jealous - it is perfectly ok.





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