77 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

Fate 6, on 15 December 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Yeah, we honestly need hardpoint sizes like in MWT. Then they can make Clans be true Omni (which is basically what the MWT mechs are). We also need to not have variants simply to increase the time it takes us to grind to Master XP. Clans only have one version of every mech, thanks.

yup, go with hardpoints like MW:T and call it a day.

BUT WAIT, THAT WOULD BE HARDPOINT SIZING WHICH IS BAD BAD BAD RIGHT?

[Lykaon]

In regards to your opinions on streaks,you have hugely under estimated the potency of these weapons when used enmass.Your point of view is making the assumption that streaks are the only weapon carried and that this weapon platform is required to do all the damage to kill a target.A team mate may have already peeled armor off the target allowing the "sandblasting" to make the kill or the "sandblasting" will allow concentrated damage weapons to breach.

Paul has hugely over estimated the potency of AMS.Unless some changes in AMS functionality are in the works AMS doesn't even fire at streaks that are launched from ranges under 200 or so meters and that is most of the time.

As for clan LRMs Paul is on track for what is the most problematic feature and that is a locking missile launcher that weighs 5 tons has a 0-1000m range.Yet it seems that in typical fashion these features are not going to be altered.Clan LRMs will still be light weight and still have no min range? seems Odd to me.I would have removed the indirect fire mode from Clan LRMs as this fits with the clan's zelbriggen combat traditions and kept a min range.

As for the proposed Omnimech fixed components idea.I was thinking this may be one of the restrictions to be put in place.The down sides are as were stated some omnimechs have terrible "fixed" components.This would of course translate into unused chassis right from the get go.
On the flipside some clan Omnimechs are about as optimized as they come,examples would be Timberwolf and Stormcrow as these mechs are very well designed.

It's still very early in development so there is still time for some of these suggestions to be tested out.

[Lucian Nostra]

I agree Lykaon, I would remove IF from LRMs as well to counter the light weight but I would leave them without a min range still as not all the LRMs are gonna hit

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 15 December 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Donnie Silveray]

Though yes the game's balance is in need of tweaks, much of what you suggest I don't agree with and the OP is a highly indecent individual. This is not the place for personal attacks against staff or otherwise.

[Deadmeat313]

I have to say I agree with pretty much everything Paul said.

CLRMs with no minimum range would have been ludicrous. I'd drop the minimum to 150m (or 120m) though.
SSRMs ripple-firing sounds pretty cool.
Longer duration on ER lasers makes them still useful, but requiring a bit more skill to get the full benefit.

The modification limitations to OmniMechs sounds like a perfectly good way to give them a different flavour.

Personally, I think the Clans *should* be somewhat overpowered compared to the Inner Sphere - but balanced in other ways.
My suggestion would be to have them either drop 10 v 12 - or 12 v 12 but with a lower drop weight.

If the Clans are nerfed to oblivion from the outset then the whole Clan Invasion might be a damp squib.

D313

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

personally I'm liking the direction paul is going for with this, i only hope they don't increase clan weights and instead reduce inner sphere weights to compensate for the weight difference between the two technologies, i think it would inject some life into the inner sphere side after clan release, especially for those inner sphere fans out there who would be able to mount a few more weapons system ammo or equipment and compete equally with clan tech.

[Alistair Winter]

OP author lost all credibility when he argued that IS SRM2s and SSRM2s should be useless because they were useless in TT. After he points out that a FPS needs to be balanced different than a TT, due to factors such as pinpoint accuracy.

I do agree that the Clan ER LL is going to suck though. And it will result in Clan players using the PPC over the LL, even to a greater degree than IS pilots. Which is crazy.

[Hythos]

MisterPlanetarian, on 15 December 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

90% of your post is just impotent rage. Not one of your outtakes come with a serious conter proposal. Pauls Clan stuff needs quite a bit of tuning to say the least and i agree with you on that. But I am quite sure he will litsen to feedback since he mentioned no less than twice that it was not final by a long shot, why does it not suprise me that you missed that bit?


My advice: Take a break, go watch the hobbit or something and come back after the holidays when you get your DX11 UI2.0. Thats exactly what I am doing.

Chaser187, on 15 December 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

I suggest: Do the balancing with tonnage limit.
For example if u playing a clanmech your tonnage will be multiplied by a factor x, lets say 1,5.
So the overall tonnage of the company who has a clanmech in it would decrease.
Example: 700t against 675t (with one clan mech in the company).

To balance Clans, they need to be forced to follow their intended spirit: Code of Ethics, and Honor - by not engaging another warrior's target, else they forfeit thier match. 2 stars vs 1 company ensures there are available targets for all. Each time the Clan player damages another's target, they lose exp and (Clan) C-bills. Hold the player responsible for their own actions.

Edited by Hythos, 15 December 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Malzel]

I took the beam duration as an example of "We're going to try to balance these weapons without changing the important values." I don't mean that sacrastically, and I think it's moving in the right direction, but I agree that the most important factor will be how they adjust clan PPCs and ACs, given the current metagame.

The hardpoint customization of omnimechs is brilliant, a clever way to afford omnimechs the flexibility they're supposed to have, while still having some control over what combinations are and aren't possible with them. Not being able to adjust engine sizes, though, will invalidate most clan Lights, since the two entering service in June plod along at 97 kph (107 once speed-tweaked) compared to all the IS versions zipping around at 140+ kph. It may work better to simply institute a very narrow range of engine customization for omnimechs, with lights being more upgradable than mediums/heavies/assaults. Perhaps they shouldn't reach the 150 kph speed cap, but they should at least be able to reach 120 or 130 kph to keep pace with their IS counterparts. Not being able to customize armor or ES/FF slot locations I think will also be crippling, but I'm fully confident those restrictions would be lifted before release, or after release when it becomes clear how fragile and inflexible it would make clan mechs.

The only place I really differ with the Devs' plan is on LRMs. There's some debate as to whether Clan LRMs were ever supposed to have a minimum range or not, but even if they weren't, I think they need a flat cutoff min range in this game. There's just no reason that Clans need that huge advantage if we're trying to make IS and Clan tech more or less "equal" in strength. If LRMs deal damage on a sliding scale inside their minimum (Like PPCs used to do) and you're packing 50 tubes of LRMs, (fairly common for LRM boats) then even at 90m (half damage) that's a 27-damage punch that that an IS boat wouldn't have. Sure, it'll spread a little, but with TAG and Artemis IV focusing those missiles on the CT, that would core someone as fast as any SRM build. You could almost play an LRM "brawler", especially with a BAP to cancel out 1 enemy ECM and increase your lock speed. I think it would be altogether wiser just to give clan LRMs the same flat minimum range, and let them weigh less than their IS counterparts.

Edited by Malzel, 15 December 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Rhent]

Why would anyone in their right mind equip a Clan SSRM when they could equip a Clan LRM that works EXACTLY the same as Clan SSRM, have no limitation on firing only 2 missiles at a time, and can fire from 0M to 1000M?

Clan SSRM's as described by Paul are complete and utter {Scrap}. You would think the lead developer would have thought out his reasoning significantly better than what he wrote out.

[Hythos]

PGI is goofing up BIG TIME with their "we see tonnage as progression" mantra...

Quote

Deploying lighter 'Mechs into combat than the Keshik deems necessary and preserving the technology of the Clans shall give a mechwarrior much honor through his/her career.

Clans are supposed to bring the lightest tonnage possible to do the job, instead of PGI's implication of "The Atlas is to be thought of the top tier end-level 'Mech".

[Bront]

Jun Watarase, on 15 December 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Ok first of all, being able to switch out hardpoints, is a cool and fluffy idea. The problem is in the restrictions. Many clan mechs have absolutely terrible loadouts....in regards to engine type, rating, number and placement of heatsinks, amount and distribution of armor....you see where i'm going with this.

Wait, so in a post of how they plan to keep mechs balanced by finding ways to effectively nerf clan tech, where you complain that they aren't doing enough because they don't understand how important some aspects of the game are, you then complain about 'Suboptimal" stock builds?

Take a breather. Some of what he said wasn't great, but it's an attempt and it's far from the finished product.

[oldradagast]

Deadmeat313, on 15 December 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I have to say I agree with pretty much everything Paul said.

CLRMs with no minimum range would have been ludicrous. I'd drop the minimum to 150m (or 120m) though.
SSRMs ripple-firing sounds pretty cool.
Longer duration on ER lasers makes them still useful, but requiring a bit more skill to get the full benefit.

The modification limitations to OmniMechs sounds like a perfectly good way to give them a different flavour.

Personally, I think the Clans *should* be somewhat overpowered compared to the Inner Sphere - but balanced in other ways.
My suggestion would be to have them either drop 10 v 12 - or 12 v 12 but with a lower drop weight.

If the Clans are nerfed to oblivion from the outset then the whole Clan Invasion might be a damp squib.

D313

This is what I don't get:

PGI has the choice of 2 paths:

1) Keep the Clan super-powerful and just limit their drop size vs. the IS (in Clan vs. IS matches). Then, we'd have more game modes (Clan vs. Clan, IS vs. IS, and Clan vs. IS) each with different mechs and challenges. Allow each player a Clan and IS identity so we don't split the player base, and we're good. Everyone can play a mix of even matches or "boss fights" against the Clan, and everyone would be happy. They could then focus their efforts on developing key parts of the game (CW, etc), the Clans would still be like they are in Table Top, and the Old-timers would be happy.

2) The chosen path is fiddle around with every Clan piece of technology while trying to "balance" it hopeless against the IS equivalent, resulting in a nutty mix of useless weapons, still overpowered weapons, Omni-mechs that are LESS customizable than non-Omni-Mechs, and loads of other confusing, illogical drek. All of this will end badly since they are trying to achieve the impossible - balance the Clans by meddling with their technology while leaving the roleplaying Clan aspects out completely - and eats up time and resources needed to create critical game features (UI2.0, CW, etc.)

I fear the end result will be some nightmarish hybrid Meta with nearly every IS mech rendered worthless and only a handful of Clan mechs being remotely playable... which will kill the game.

For once, guys, taking the EASY route is the right answer - reduce Clan tonnage on drop vs. IS, change their reward structure in game to match their code of honor, and let people chose from IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, and Clan vs. IS matches. That's it - keep the tech the same, stick to the lore, make everyone happy, and profit...

Edited by oldradagast, 15 December 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[VanillaG]

Jun Watarase, on 15 December 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Ok first of all, being able to switch out hardpoints, is a cool and fluffy idea. The problem is in the restrictions. Many clan mechs have absolutely terrible loadouts....in regards to engine type, rating, number and placement of heatsinks, amount and distribution of armor....you see where i'm going with this. Let's look at some of the clan mechs that are being released

The way that the omnimechs are being presented actually make them a choice, not a requirement for game play. If anything it give a mobility advantage to IS mechs. The other restrictions in regards to engine size, FF, an ES are all necessary because of the flexibility to change hardpoints. The only restriction I would think about getting rid of is amount and distribution of armor since that is just weight.

[Deathlike]

Guys, did you not read that Paul is considering Ghost Tonnage?

How is one going to explain the Madcat Prime variant when it's LRM20 launchers are 2 tons heavier than what you remember? Once you remove the "Paulurm 20", how the heck would you add it back on?

Edit:
Personally, my dream scenario is that Bryan and Russ NOT take a vacation like everyone else (haven't they had enough vacations this year?) to finish UI 2.0, and have Paul visit Donald Trump.

That would make me happy.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 December 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[oldradagast]

Deathlike, on 15 December 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Guys, did you not read that Paul is considering Ghost Tonnage?

How is one going to explain the Madcat Prime variant when it's LRM20 launchers are 2 tons heavier than what you remember? Once you remove the "Paulurm 20", how the heck would you add it back on?

Edit:
Personally, my dream scenario is that Bryan and Russ NOT take a vacation like everyone else (haven't they had enough vacations this year?) to finish UI 2.0, and have Paul visit Donald Trump.

That would make me happy.

Don't worry. I am sure Ghost Tonnage will be documented just as well as Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge-up mechanic, the current functionality of BAP (yeah, it still makes no mention of countering ECM), and so on...

Seriously, I'm worried this whole Clan thing is going to kill this game.

[Bront]

Hythos, on 15 December 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

To balance Clans, they need to be forced to follow their intended spirit: Code of Ethics, and Honor - by not engaging another warrior's target, else they forfeit thier match. 2 stars vs 1 company ensures there are available targets for all. Each time the Clan player damages another's target, they lose exp and (Clan) C-bills. Hold the player responsible for their own actions.

How do you propose doing that? Players with tons of CBills won't care, players who don't know the code won't care. Or are you going to tell me that a team should lose a match because some troll shot a mech someone else already shot, or worse, a stray shot hits another mech in a brawl?

You just can't force players to play like that in any way that's both fair and fun. It's just too ripe for abuse.

Hythos, on 15 December 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

PGI is goofing up BIG TIME with their "we see tonnage as progression" mantra...


Clans are supposed to bring the lightest tonnage possible to do the job, instead of PGI's implication of "The Atlas is to be thought of the top tier end-level 'Mech".

PGI wants to make all mechs viable in some way, and they've done a pretty reasonable job with it (There are viable mechs in every weight class). The issue is that if you balance by any way where the clan mechs are ultimately superior, folks will flock to the superior tech (Who want's to play the inferior tech and have to rely on the coordination of random players across the internet?). Weight has a similar problem, particularly when weight doesn't always mean better mech.

[Deathlike]

oldradagast, on 15 December 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Seriously, I'm worried this whole Clan thing is going to kill this game.

TBH, Gold Mechs are the harpoons, despite the mighty generous whales.

Besides, construction of the mega-tier doesn't help either.

[Tezcatli]

I like their proposed changes to balance Clan tech. But given their track record. It will take months for a remotely adequate level of balance to be achieved.

[Sandpit]

Disagree with OP. If you want to know why just peruse the dozen other threads on balance I've already posted in. I predicted this exact response about clans and a few others in my "concrete" thread. We'll see how long it takes the others to come to fruition