Jump to content

The Wonders Of Balancing Mechwarrior Or What To Do To Get This Game Back On Track


24 replies to this topic

#1 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:03 PM

Ok so first of i wanna excuse myselfe for the wall of text that i am about to drop into your general direction. Also i wanna excuse me for my tone and speech beforehand. I am very pationate about this franchise and i cannot contain my feelings even though i try my hardest.
I have been with this game since early beta up till now and i have watched the progress it has made since then for the good and most of all for its worse.

Ok now thats out of the way lets start and take a look at what Mechwarrior has always been about and where i think MWO is failing to deliver.

1. Context and depth of Battles:

Mechwarrior has always been about 2 or more sides struggeling to get the upper hand in a conflict that spans from one planet to whole systems. At middle of those fights there are the elite warriors that are known as "Mechwarriors" surrounded by a warmachine consisting of mixed groundforces i.e Tanks and Infantry and/or Airforces and Navy.

While MWO is nailing the part on side of the Mechs i cannot but feel the whole rest of what makes Battletech and respectivly every other Mechwarrior game great is beeing ignored in this game completly.

There is no defensive structures to overcome. There ins no meaningfull objective like taking an actual base by disabling its defenses and garrison. There is nothing to do but fight Mechs in a sort of Gladiatorious pitfight to the death. There is no context and no depth to these fight besides "use the current meta game to your advantage or lose the fight".

I know that Community Warfare is promised to us and is supposed to fix alot of what i just brought up. But to what degree are they (PGI) going to make this Franchise come back to life?

I understand that Mechwarrior has allways been about Mechs at its core but what made the other Mechwarrior games so great to me was that you actually felt as if you were part of a Conflict rather then a duel.

2. Balance and Stock viability

2.1 Balance

Battletech has allways had ways to balance out forces without tweaking weapon damage or armor distribution or stuff like Ghostheat.

In the previous Mechwarrior games you mostly played in singleplayer and i'm just mentioning this because i will get jumped for continuing without doing so. I am well aware of the differences beween balancing a singleplayer game and a multiplayer game. Fact is though balance is no Voodoo balance is math.

Back to point.

In Battletech since the earliest versions you had a limiting factor to balance out matches i.e Tonnage.

This worked well until an event hit the fan that is also known as the "Clan Invasion"
The first ruleset stuck to the Tonnage as a limiting factor but FASA realised very fast that this wasn't going to balance the game because Tonnage wasn't taking into considerration how vastly superior the Clantech was to its Inner Sphere counterparts.

They came up with a system to make balance as close as it has ever been to perfect in the Battletech Universe.

BV or Battlevalue

Better Tech cost more of this Battlevalue then Tech that fit the same role but was inferior.
To make an example everyone understands to make my point.

A side that fields...

...1x 75 Ton Timberwolf (Mad-Cat) BV: 2,737...

...enables the opposing side to field...

...2x 75 Ton Marauders BV: 1,363...

...to make up for the superior Technology that is Clantech.

What this could mean for MWO if it was done right is, you might have superior Mechs and Systems but you have to face up to double the number of enemies in a Match.
It means that Clan Tech can be introduced without the redicilous tweeks that have been thought up by Paul and his game designer department.

To me this sounds like a fair way to balance the game as it takes skill to stand your ground against a superior number of enemies even though you have better Tech. Clans do not become overpowered and skill stays a focus. Also it fits the Canon of the Clans who took on vastly superior numbers to get their kicks of it. (arrogance some would say)

To be exact it might take a Clan player a bit less effort to down an Inner Sphere Mech but he also has more targets to take down aswell.

What does it take to make this possible on PGIs side?

- implement a BV for every chassis and every equipment in the game
- Match teams of equal or near equal BV
- make Clan Tech only available to Clan Mechs
- make Inner Sphere Tech only available to IS Mechs
- pit IS vs. IS, Clans vs. Clans or Clans vs. IS but never mix teams
- increase maximum players per side to 20 (4 Clan Stars or 5 IS Lances) as a cap for BV to work and give enough space to compensate for BV heavy Clan Teams
- cap the Maximum BV so the 20 man Cap isn't streched

This is no Voodoo it is doable. Its simple mathmatics if you agree with my point or not.
The question is, Is PGI willing to do so rather then fixing the current balancing of the game by yet another patchwork balance to compensate for it's **** poor design decisions in the past.

2.2 Stock viability

In the Battletech Universe (including Mechwarrior) every Mech was designed around a certain task it had to fullfill on the Battlefield. Every Mech was viable in its own way.

The problem i see with this within MWO at the moment is there is NO stock viability.

I will make this example easy and believe me or not its its transferable to nearly every mech in the current game.

The Hunchback 4G is designed around the concept of urban combat and close range brawling. With its AC/20 it is a fearsome foe up close and even way heavier mechs have to fear it.

The Blackjack 1J is designed to be a firesupport Mech with counter insurgency capabilities and a decent close combat potential.

Now these two Mech build the perfect case to proof my point about Stock viability.

The Hunchback 4G comes with a stockloadout of 1 AC/20, 2 medium lasers and a small laser has no jumpjet capability and weighs 50 tons with a BV of 1,041

The Blackjack 1J comes with a Stockloadout of 2 AC/2's and 4 medium lasers, has jumpjet capability and weighs 45 tons and a BV of 949

Ok you say what the problem?!

The problem is that the Blackjack has replaced the Hunchback 4G due to its hardpoint abilities.
Though the Blackjack only comes with a total of 2 ballistic Hardpoints instead of the 3 of the Hunchback most if not all players these days run it with the same loadout a upgraded Hunchback 4G runs.

To be exact i run my Hunchback 4G with 3 medium lasers and 1 AC/20 with 4 tons of ammo i am forced to a standart engine of 200 with a topspeed (without speadtweak) of 64.8 KPH

I run my Blackjack 1J with the exact same weapon loadout and ammo except i am able to fit 4 jumpjets and an XL 235 engine with a topspeed (without speedtweak) of 81 KPH

The only difference to my Hunchback is the armorvalue which is 338 for the 4G and 272 for the 1J at next to no survivability difference due to the way higher maneuverability of the Blackjack.
Ontop of that my Hunchback has to turn his whole torso to the enemy to fire its AC/20 while the Blackjack has it in its arm and has a way better firing angle.

If the Hunchback looses its right torso the AC/20 is gone and so is one of my energy hardpoints. If the Blackjack looses one of its side torsos its dead but that has happened to me less then my Hunchback getting cored in the center. Why because the Side torsos of the Blackjack are 1. very tiny in comparison and 2. are unlike the center torso very retracted.

So you could say the Blackjack 1J is the better Hunchback 4G

What makes this possible ?

Very easiely put Hardpoints as they are in the game are a **** poor implementation.

What to do to fix this? Well thats not an easy thing to answer.
The best i have seen in the past and could come up with myselfe is restricting hardpoint sizes on Mechs to what the stock weapons had in slots.

So for example if we stick to the current slots sizes of weapons in game currently

Give the Hunchback 4G not 3 ballistic slots but give it a left torso that fits any combination of ballistic weapons up to a maximum of 10 Slots like its stock AC/20 has.

For the Blackjack that would mean take 2 AC/2's or 2 Machine guns.
Now hold on for a second i know thats a bit unfair but we have to take into consideration that these hardpoint limitations have been forced upon us by PGI not by Battletech. I think a bit of leeway and common sense should be put into this aswell. So maybe allow the Blackjack to have 4 slots of ballistics in each arm to make it a viable mech in its own right and give it some viable posibilities to customize its loadout.

How ever you put it the current Meta game without hardpoint size limitations has led to monstrosities like the 6 ERPPC Stalker or the Dual AC/20 Jager or Catapult, 6 SRM 6 Catapult A1 and many different Mech designes that suck out the fun and diversity that was once thought out by the original makers of Battletech.

What did PGI do to counter alot of these builds ? Double Heatsinks that do 1.4 instead of 2.0 Heat dissipation and as that clearly did not work Ghost heat. Upping the Armor values to double of the original. All clear signs as to how little PGI understands the Franchise they are working on right now patchworking over every balance issue they introduced themselfe someway down the line.



So what is it i am demanding?

In short.

- introduce Battlevalue for balancing instead of tweaking the formula each time you run into self introduced balance issues.
- leave Clan Tech and IS Tech as originaly intended
- up the possible playerlimit to compensate for possible Battlevalues while capping out BV
- give us bigger maps with actual Objectives instead of Gladiatorial fights in Solaris sized maps
- limit the hardpointsize per mech to keep intended stock designes alive while finally killing uberboats and builds that disregard the canon of Battletech.
- generally start to pull the stick out of your arse for thinking you the Devs have the ultimate formula for Battletech just because you have the funds to realize it.

This Franchise has been here before you (PGI) and while i thank you for finally puting it back to life step by step heed my warning. You are on the brink of destroying your work with stupid design decision after stupid design decision. Get real! Listen to your community and stop ******* around with our loved franchise.

Cheers,

Jack Corban

PS: If you find any typos or gramatical issues of any sorts keep em i'm not a native speaker.

Edited by Jack Corban, 15 December 2013 - 05:19 PM.


#2 NaZGuLxNL

    Rookie

  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1 posts

Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

I support this rant!

#3 Kassatsu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Devoted
  • The Devoted
  • 1,078 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:58 PM

I agree with most of what you said. My one issue with it all? This game is too far gone to implement any of that. It would be a complete 180 from what they're currently doing (milking as much money as possible in as short a time as possible before their completely broken implementation of clan tech rolls along and kills most of the playerbase, made blatantly obvious by the $500 gold mechs... Which don't even seem to include the other packages), and such an instant u-turn would cause the few people who like the game as it is now to then quit.

I tried to like this game from the very beginning, I was even disappointed I didn't have the money for the legendary founder's pack (much less the lowest tier)... Then I played it. I laughed at the fact I never spent that money.

I bought the overlord and reinforcement packs (and more than a few customization options, even a couple of hero mechs) in the false hope that it would somehow make the game better. Lot of good that did. There's still nothing but bandaid short-term fixes that might temporarily stop the bleeding, but do nothing for the massive internal trauma. I've literally given up on community warfare entirely. I've also given up on both the developer and the publisher entirely. The publisher being the one to blame for the hilarious monetization, though chances are they are not the ones behind the "balancing" of the game.

In short, I'm actually uninstalling this game. On a side note, anyone else notice how every single exclusive pre-order package has gotten increasingly more expensive (to get what you actually want)? The founder packages let you choose which mech(s) you got, assuming you didn't get legendary. Then project phoenix rolls along and forces you to shell out what was it, $120 for the assault chassis, and if that's the only one you even wanted? Too bad. Now we get the clan packs, $240 for all of them, or some smaller number for a bunch of mechs you probably don't care for, and the ONE that you do. Don't worry, you're paying for all the ones you don't want as well.

So is clan tech actually going to be better to justify the ridiculous price jump (and forced purchases)? Probably not, but that won't stop people from buying them anyway because they have to have their precious(sss) t-wolf or whatever. Can't wait to see how laughably inefficient the energy clan chassis are now as well.

Oh, and sorry for derailing the thread. After Living Legends was given a C&D to make way for MWO I nearly gave up on anything but the tabletop game, with some small hope for MWO that was never fulfilled (and never will be to be)... So... Yeah. Not sure what else to say, goodbye? I mean I'm not leaving for good - I'll check back every now and then for sure, but I doubt I'll actually play (or more importantly, pay for) MWO much again.

tl;dr is pretty much the entire first paragraph.

Edited by Kassatsu, 15 December 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#4 Hillslam

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,198 posts
  • LocationWestern Hemisphere

Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

I'm not interested in dropping 12v10
Or 12v8
Or 12v6
Or 12v5
Or even 12v4

Clan OP was WRONG when it hit TT. The freaking father/author/architect of the clans from FASA in the 90s himself said so. Its WRONG in the world of computer gaming.

If the only option as a IS player is to drop against uber "boss" mechs that aren't PvE then I'm (and 99% of other paying customers) are only going to play those uber "boss" mechs.

I don't want to be the one-bullet Russian at Stalingrad. Or the bullet soaking Chinese human-wave soldier in Korea. Nobody wants to pay to be cannon fodder for a bunch of epeen padding computer nerds fantasizing they are genetically bred warriors, as they sit their fat butts on a cushioned seat and nibble cheetos....

Clans - since they're coming and we can't stop that - should be different and not more powerful. It looks like Paul and PGI are going in that direction. I hope they take it even further than Paul's post let us see so far.

#5 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:27 PM

View PostHillslam, on 15 December 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I'm not interested in dropping 12v10
Or 12v8
Or 12v6
Or 12v5
Or even 12v4

Clan OP was WRONG when it hit TT. The freaking father/author/architect of the clans from FASA in the 90s himself said so. Its WRONG in the world of computer gaming.

If the only option as a IS player is to drop against uber "boss" mechs that aren't PvE then I'm (and 99% of other paying customers) are only going to play those uber "boss" mechs.

I don't want to be the one-bullet Russian at Stalingrad. Or the bullet soaking Chinese human-wave soldier in Korea. Nobody wants to pay to be cannon fodder for a bunch of epeen padding computer nerds fantasizing they are genetically bred warriors, as they sit their fat butts on a cushioned seat and nibble cheetos....

Clans - since they're coming and we can't stop that - should be different and not more powerful. It looks like Paul and PGI are going in that direction. I hope they take it even further than Paul's post let us see so far.


I am sorry you feel that way. Is there anything else you wanna discuss then your obvious hate for Clans and their superior Tech. Or it that all you took from my topic to be up for discussion ?

#6 Levi Porphyrogenitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 4,763 posts
  • LocationAurora, Indiana, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way

Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:54 PM

First, here is how to get a bit more engine out of your 4G: HBK-4G Plus you can zombie like crazy in this thing if you know how to spread damage and twist at all well. You could also swap the head ML for another ton of ammo if you find it hard to use and don't care about zombie potential and love spamming that AC.

Second, drops being balanced by weight only should be sufficient. Clans can have a weight multiplier (1.5x, 2.0x, or whatever). PGI has already indicated that they're leaning in that direction.

Third, mixed teams are almost certainly not going to happen except maybe in instant-action skirmish matches (the ones that don't impact CW). Clans won't be out until mid June anyway, which gives plenty of time for the initial roll-out of CW (which will include LP and faction-specific team comps).

Fourth, mixed tech won't happen.

Fifth, the big problem with stock viability is the heat system. Very few of the stock loadouts have anywhere near the heat dissipation that they need to work in MWO, even the ones that were truly neutral in TT. The best fix I've seen proposed so far is decreased cap and increased dissipation rates, which should limit high-heat alpha boats while encouraging mixed weapon loadouts (with different range brackets) and sustained DPS builds (instead of high-heat burst payloads). That's unlikely to happen, though it'd be amazing if PGI were to let us play that way on the PTS for a weekend or something just to try it out. Depending on how it's handled it could make SHS viable for certain builds, too.

#7 D04S02B04

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 158 posts

Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:37 AM

Actually, there's a kind of satisfaction in knowing that you're only human and fighting valiantly against the best. Besides, there's greater "honour" in beating a difficult opponent with sheer skill (because most paying customers are bad players anyway).

Ever watched GATTACA?

#8 Livebait

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 411 posts
  • LocationDrop ship Alpha, drinking beer

Posted 16 December 2013 - 09:59 AM

Clan Tech is going to be a problem. But, a lot of the balance issues could be fixed with better maps and objective points. If the devs would divert some time to making more and better thought out maps with objective points instead of trying to stroke you with a new hero mech, the player base would grow. 250-500 bucks for a pixel robot? Please...

#9 Scorpion15

    Member

  • Pip
  • Elite Founder
  • 14 posts
  • LocationIllinois, USA

Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:18 AM

I absolutely would love a BV implementation rather than tonnage.

#10 Lightfoot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 6,612 posts
  • LocationOlympus Mons

Posted 16 December 2013 - 07:49 PM

I would just like to point out that MechWarrior 4 had a very devoted PvP multiplayer element. When players found some exploits the Devs included fixes for those and some weapon imbalance in their patches which resulted in a more balanced MechWarrior game then MWO's version. It was left to the players to form leagues and rules that resulted in maximum dropweight, no-cross-tech, map selection by bid, and sometimes weight class. One league even had an interactive map of the Battletech universe and player Units were granted ownership rights of those planets to fight over. Yes, we had CW in MechWarrior 4 made by dedicated players.

So when someone says we didn't have dedicated RP-based PvP in MechWarrior 4, you can tell them they are wrong. And the battles weren't all guns, the mechs had a mix of all weapons and your loadout would be balanced for the map enviornment or you would lose.

We would probably still be playing MW4 today if MS hadn't taken the servers down (the Zone).

Edited by Lightfoot, 16 December 2013 - 07:57 PM.


#11 Voidcrafter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 718 posts
  • LocationBulgaria

Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:12 PM

Or to put it simple:
Give the game more content.
Where (very important) more content IS NOT equal to another friggin 10/20/30/40/500$ mech.
Ballistics are alright. Missiles are alright(except the SRMs of course). People boating them, cause of the lack of other choices are not.
Content == spend 3 weeks with the effort of developing a tool for map creation with the CryEngine and no - it's not our fault that the choice of the engine made the game hardly modable. And those are only excuses - I can write hundreds of thousands of source code and make a standalone applicatoin by myself just for 2/3 weeks - you're a WHOLE team.
If the community can create maps and you release them with some sort of voting I think a lot of us will be happy.
7 maps for more than an year... 2 gamemodes... that's becoming a very, very bad joke minding the fact how much money you wish to get from the "content" you're releasing.

Make SRMs do 3 damage per missiles and the voulenteers can still poptart as much as they want, but they will learn a thing or two about life and the universe when a simple medium packed with 3xSRM6+A(Kintaros - finally your day has come) get ~120m near them. With that in mind - somewhat fix the HSR a bit so I don't have to shoot a medium mech 4/5!!! times in a row in it's cored torso with 2xSRM6+A and I think I got quite the aim...
Be more open with the community.
And that's that - there you go.
Balance. And variety.

EDIT: On my point with the missiles - a simple example:
If you know a medium carring those(SRMs) can get close and can pack the punch(in a short ammout of time) to really cause harm instead of be something you ignore/crush with evil smile - the game will shift a lot.
It's not like we haven't witness it, haven't we?

Edited by Voidcrafter, 16 December 2013 - 11:16 PM.


#12 Alcom Isst

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Professional
  • The Professional
  • 935 posts
  • LocationElo Heaven

Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:15 AM

View PostHillslam, on 15 December 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I'm not interested in dropping 12v10
Or 12v8
Or 12v6
Or 12v5
Or even 12v4

Clan OP was WRONG when it hit TT. The freaking father/author/architect of the clans from FASA in the 90s himself said so. Its WRONG in the world of computer gaming.

If the only option as a IS player is to drop against uber "boss" mechs that aren't PvE then I'm (and 99% of other paying customers) are only going to play those uber "boss" mechs.

I don't want to be the one-bullet Russian at Stalingrad. Or the bullet soaking Chinese human-wave soldier in Korea. Nobody wants to pay to be cannon fodder for a bunch of epeen padding computer nerds fantasizing they are genetically bred warriors, as they sit their fat butts on a cushioned seat and nibble cheetos....

Clans - since they're coming and we can't stop that - should be different and not more powerful. It looks like Paul and PGI are going in that direction. I hope they take it even further than Paul's post let us see so far.


While the clans are bad for game balance, they are great for story telling. Plenty of Battletech fans have been fantasizing about being part of the great and overwhelming trueborn Clan force; or perhaps being part of the disadvantaged Inner Sphere, heroically waging war against a technologically superior warrior culture. However, the current Mechwarrior Online 12v12 isn't very well designed to simulate the clan invasion. Double however, the CW and private matches can be designed to simulate the clan invasion.

Triple however, there still needs to be game balance for 12v12. I'm also not interested in dropping in 12 vs <12 matches. I also don't like the idea of BV like OP does. It's not simple mathematics. It's very tricky math involving adapting to strategy, interpreting telemetry, and predicting the behavior of the player masses. I'd prefer the simpler method of balancing teams based on tonnage, based on that single number. IS drops with 750 tons. Clan drops with 600. Numbers are adjusted based on telemetry. Everybody wins. Players enjoy their clan mechs and golden mechs get team killed for half the matches they are in.

#13 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:29 AM

View PostJack Corban, on 15 December 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

The Hunchback 4G is designed around the concept of urban combat and close range brawling. With its AC/20 it is a fearsome foe up close and even way heavier mechs have to fear it.

The Blackjack 1J is designed to be a firesupport Mech with counter insurgency capabilities and a decent close combat potential.

Now these two Mech build the perfect case to proof my point about Stock viability.

The Hunchback 4G comes with a stockloadout of 1 AC/20, 2 medium lasers and a small laser has no jumpjet capability and weighs 50 tons with a BV of 1,041

The Blackjack 1J comes with a Stockloadout of 2 AC/2's and 4 medium lasers, has jumpjet capability and weighs 45 tons and a BV of 949

Ok you say what the problem?!

The problem is that the Blackjack has replaced the Hunchback 4G due to its hardpoint abilities.
Though the Blackjack only comes with a total of 2 ballistic Hardpoints instead of the 3 of the Hunchback most if not all players these days run it with the same loadout a upgraded Hunchback 4G runs.

So the Blackjack(H) has replaced the Enforcer as the Hunchback replacement?
...
...
...
Battletech has 700+ Mechs to choose from, MW:O has many less but so long as the hardpoints exist I can make a Stalker into a Battlemaster, a Raven into a Panther, and a Cataphract into a Warhammer.

#14 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 17 December 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

So the Blackjack(H) has replaced the Enforcer as the Hunchback replacement?
...
...
...
Battletech has 700+ Mechs to choose from, MW:O has many less but so long as the hardpoints exist I can make a Stalker into a Battlemaster, a Raven into a Panther, and a Cataphract into a Warhammer.


You are missing the point i am trying to make. In the latest of Paul's posts (the one about their plans on how to balance Clan Tech) he wrote that they (PGI) want every Mech in the game to be viable. Currently there is only a few mechs that are viable at all if you look at it competitively. The Hunchback and especially the Stock Variant the 4G isn't one of them and so are many others.

Or simply put it becomes obsolete due to how hardpoints work. With my approach you would limit mechs somewhat from digressing too far from their initially intended role/design. And this would be great. Every Mech would have its right to be fielded. Metagame would stop becoming so stale. And last but definetly not least Boating would would be somewhat hindered.

I mean look at it like this a mech with 5 Energy Slots currently has the theoretical potential to field 5 ERPPC's thats why we have Ghostheat. In my concept (Microsofts concept really) a mech that has 5 energy weapons to start with is not necessary able to field 5 ERPPC's. It is all about how big was the stock variant weapon in that slot before you pulled it out. I.E was it a medium laser it is one slot big not able to field large lasers or PPC's.

This would help immensely in balancing out Mechs and giving overall right to field every mech in its own designed role.

#15 DeskDroid

    Member

  • Pip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 14 posts

Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:32 PM

My only concern in regards to BV is pilot skill (if you addressed this above, I apologize). I've see plenty of tricked out high BV mechs where the pilot doesn't know what he's doing. IE, all large laser, XL Engine, Armlocked Boars Heads.

I'd assume based on its equipment it's BV would be decent. Then to watch from his cockpit and have ArmLock on just makes me cringe. When I state that he can turn it off, he says he likes it that way because its easier for him only watch mechs cut through his field of view that he can't track because his torso twist is slow which he could have caught if his arms were free.

Outfitting a mech is simple for any person to do regardless of actual FPS based skill. So should a 2600 BV Mad Cat drop into the group where the pilot has obvious less skill, which team would you rather be on? I'm just stating that I think BV alone still wouldn't solve certain issues.

My 2 cents.

#16 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostDeskDroid, on 17 December 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

My only concern in regards to BV is pilot skill (if you addressed this above, I apologize). I've see plenty of tricked out high BV mechs where the pilot doesn't know what he's doing. IE, all large laser, XL Engine, Armlocked Boars Heads.

I'd assume based on its equipment it's BV would be decent. Then to watch from his cockpit and have ArmLock on just makes me cringe. When I state that he can turn it off, he says he likes it that way because its easier for him only watch mechs cut through his field of view that he can't track because his torso twist is slow which he could have caught if his arms were free.

Outfitting a mech is simple for any person to do regardless of actual FPS based skill. So should a 2600 BV Mad Cat drop into the group where the pilot has obvious less skill, which team would you rather be on? I'm just stating that I think BV alone still wouldn't solve certain issues.

My 2 cents.


I get your point but beeing in the wrong team due to lack of skill in your own isn't a side effect of BV. With BV you just have to choose between having superior tech or superior numbers. That is fair and gives you the chance to have balanced games.

As long as Clans drop against Clans i don't care if they use tonnage. Same goes for IS against IS. But Clans vs. IS needs to have BV imho.

#17 Haji1096

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 339 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationAlexandria, VA

Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:20 AM

How about balancing clan tech via this method :

Clan tech remains OP, but if you drop in a clan mech: You must designate your target before the match starts. Your weapons will only damage that target. You cannot switch targets until your current one is destroyed. Basically the downside being you can't focus fire targets to simulate clan 1v1 style of combat.

Clan tech cannot be equipped to IS mechs.

#18 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:15 AM

View PostHaji1096, on 18 December 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

How about balancing clan tech via this method :

Clan tech remains OP, but if you drop in a clan mech: You must designate your target before the match starts. Your weapons will only damage that target. You cannot switch targets until your current one is destroyed. Basically the downside being you can't focus fire targets to simulate clan 1v1 style of combat.


No thats a horrible idea.

View PostHaji1096, on 18 December 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Clan tech cannot be equipped to IS mechs.


I hope so.

#19 robertmw1988

    Rookie

  • 8 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostHaji1096, on 18 December 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

How about balancing clan tech via this method :

Clan tech remains OP, but if you drop in a clan mech: You must designate your target before the match starts. Your weapons will only damage that target. You cannot switch targets until your current one is destroyed. Basically the downside being you can't focus fire targets to simulate clan 1v1 style of combat.

Clan tech cannot be equipped to IS mechs.


They already said that they DO NOT feel like that is a proper implementation.


I do not like the OP's BV concept, it's already evident that a gaggle of Lights can easily take down Assaults, so if there are 12v8 drops, its just going to end up poorly, just like how it always worked against the clans in canon. They would want to go 1v1, and then get swarmed by a whole lance at a time.


And just having a weight limit imposes weird problems as well. You would probably end up with lots of matches with 4 IS assaults, vs maybe 1 or 2 Clan Assaults, it would end up being still unfair since they can just soak up way too much.

They need to improve ELO. Implement their launch console ASAP. Reinstate repair costs, making clan tech more expensive to repair. And possibly have a balancer to play for the clans that gives a sliding multiplier of how much C-bills are earned in a match that is based on weight differential.

If you had a 700 ton launch IS and a 700 ton launch Clan, members get something like x .7 their final c-bill total for the match. If the differential starts going in the way of the Clans, (650 IS vs 700 Clan) the Clan players can get down as low as x .25 their final C-bill value. Versus, going the other direction (700 IS vs 650 Clan) the Clan can get ther x 1.0 multiplier, and even getting up to a x1.25 or so multiplier for having a greater differential.

Make the multipliers act fairly exponentially so that going up or down from an even weight differential quickly changes the value that you will get. This would quickly enforce Clan groups from just "sucking it up" and fielding a "slightly" more powerful team, hoping they will just steamroll, and not have to pay for repairs because of it. And at the same time, keep Clan teams from being stupid and fielding a super weak team in order to push up their C-bill output. IE there are severely diminishing returns for going in either direction, pushing teams to stay around a balance point.

If the multipliers make it so that Clan players have to act like Clan in order to pay for their play style (repair bills) then they will change their team composition so that they actually have the chance to make the C-bills they need in order to keep playing. This will add a risk vs. reward component to playing Clan, give you more "glory" for "honorable" matches. Whereas playing IS will always be a little more "safe" since you will always get a more definite ammount of C-bills per match.

I also do not condone allowing Clan and IS tech from being used completely interchangably. If there is someone that wants to take a Clan Pod Weapon and put it on their IS mech, they should have to pay to have it permanently modified (C-Bills not PTW MC changeover) so that it can be attached to a standard IS hardpoint. If you want to take a clan Pod weapon and put it on a CLAN non pod hardpoint, that should be doable for free (since they know their own tech right?) I recognize that canon is that clan weapons use fairly compatable connections due to there being the Star League origionation of both sides tech, but that wont work here in my head.

So, if you want to use Clan weaps on IS mechs it costs you, in origional purchase/modification (Clan tech is always worth more from salvage teams), repairs (again, replacements are worth more supply and demand people), and the fact that you have to basically double purchase them because they will be unavailable for further use on your clan mechs once modified to go on your IS.


Wow, long post, sorry.

#20 Tombstoner

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 2,193 posts

Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:59 PM

there are 5 reasons stock mechs have issues.

1- Weapon load outs are often not optimized for high damage alphas, but over a range from long to med to short.
2- FF and ES give you more tonnage. more tonnage = more power.
3- DHS give you more room to fire.
4 - engine swaps free up tonnage. more tonnage = more power.
5 - XL engines free up very larger chunks of tonnage. more tonnage = more power.

you cant fix stock mecha with existing systems. then when the clans arrive IS tech becomes stock.

The only way to fix power creep with new tech or modifications is to reduce the mechs over all durability via hit points or damage cofactors by mech hit location or over all.

stock mech at lets say 100 % hp
modified drops depending on the % tonnage altered fully customized becoming 60%
clan tech has lighter weapons lets assume the have less hp clan mech have 25% durability as the stock IS equivalent tonnage.

Stock 20 ton IS mech 100%
stock 20 ton clan mech 25%
modifed clan mech 15%





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users