72 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

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I had to reach way back in the brain housing group for this one.....But the innersphere did eventually adopt omni mechs and begin to produce them.....The Owens is intended to be an [color="#b27204"]OmniMech[/color] upgrade of the [color="#b27204"]Jenner[/color] [color="#b27204"]BattleMech[/color]. The intended role for the Owens is as a cavalry 'Mech that can move along the enemy lines and designate targets for bombardment with [color="#b27204"]Arrow IV[/color] artillery attacks. [color="#b27204"]http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Owens[/color]
So the Devs could technically release a package of innersphere omni mechs at the same time that would be omni mechs that would be exclusively based on innersphere omni mechs...would probably make everyone happy.

However, the IS-built OmniMechs didn't come into being until 3052 (with the first of those being the Raptor), so it would probably be a year or three before they can show up in MWO.

[Kaijin]

IGPGI plays fast and loose with the lore and the timeline. You need look no further than the combined Guardian/Angel/Stealth ECM we have in the game.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor

[Wieland]

Quote

Ed Steele @EdSteeleMWO

@bryanekman I have a Christmas bonus on the way, so give me some info that would make an IS player want a clan pack.


Bryan Ekman@bryanekman

@EdSteeleMWO lore - battlefield salvaged mechs put into service under your command. Still a valiant IS MechWarrior ready to kill clanners.

So far it looks like IS will have no problem using Clan mechs.

Edited by Wieland, 23 December 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Kaijin, on 23 December 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

IGPGI plays fast and loose with the lore and the timeline. You need look no further than the combined Guardian/Angel/Stealth ECM we have in the game.

They do stick to the timeline .. the problem is it's supposed to be the Guardian - it just doesn't work like it should.

As much as I love this game, the nature of ECM implementation is something I'll probably never get behind.

[Slater01]

Wieland, on 23 December 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

So far it looks like IS will have no problem using Clan mechs.

Thanks, I think

[Strum Wealh]

Kyone Akashi, on 23 December 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

They do stick to the timeline .. the problem is it's supposed to be the Guardian - it just doesn't work like it should.

As much as I love this game, the nature of ECM implementation is something I'll probably never get behind.

Though, the near-totality of MWO's ECM implementation can be directly traced-back to BattleTech - including providing citations & quotations with book titles & page numbers (mainly, from the advanced/optional gameplay rules found in Tactical Operations).

Spoiler

Well, the canon abilities of the Guardian ECM Suite include...

• Generates an effect bubble with a radius of 180 meters (see page 134 of Total Warfare), doubled when in a region characterized by electromagnetic interference (see page 55 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Nullifies the effects of Artemis IV FCSs (TacOps is somewhat unclear as to whether Artemis V is affected to a lesser degree by Guardian (as Artemis V's descriptive text implies some level of effect), or not affected at all by Guardian (in contrast to being affected by Angel ECM, a contrast implied by Angel's gameplay rules)); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 283 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Beagle Active Probes, but NOT those of Bloodhound Active Probes; see pg 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 278 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Narc and iNarc beacon pods; see pg. 134 of Total Warfare
  
• Nullifies the effects of C3 and C3i systems (but NOT C3 Boosted systems); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pgs. 297-298 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects detectability and identification via sensors other than IR, MagScan, and Seismic (see the "ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table" and pages 224-225 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Generates an ECCM bubble capable of negating the ECM effects of a single a single other Guardian ECM Suite or similar system (or one half of an Angel ECM Suite if both components are set to ECM mode); see pgs. 100-101 of Tactical Operations
  
• Generates ghost targets; see pgs. 101-102 of Tactical Operations
  
• Allows for the functioning of Stealth Armor System and Void Signature System (neither of which will operate at all unless either Guardian or Angel is installed); see pg. 142 of Total Warfare and pgs. 348-349 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects the effectiveness of enemy automated weapon emplacements (Tactical Operations, pg. 133)
  
• Affects enemy communications systems (including Command Consoles, Mobile HQs, and Satellite Uplinks) and related bonuses (Tactical Operations, pgs. 195/196)

Many of these capabilities are shared with the unnamed Clan-built counterpart to Guardian, as well as the Angel ECM Suite and the ECM components of the Capellan-built Electronic Warfare Equipment and the Clan-built Watchdog CEWS.

Guardian ECM does not canonically affect the tracking/accuracy bonus (which is separate from the initial targeting) of Streak SRMs.
Guardian ECM does not canonically affect the targeting capabilities/bonuses of Targeting Computers.
Guardian ECM does not canonically affect TAG at all.
Guardian ECM does not affect units that are friendly/allied to the unit carrying the Guardian.

With regard to Guardian ECM and targets outside of the 180-meter radius, there are two opposing rules:

• The basic core rules presented in Total Warfare state (on page 134), "The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble."
  
• The double-blind rules presented in Tactical Operations state (on page 224), "To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems."

Additionally, there are examples of Guardian being used in the BT novels - specifically, in the novels Main Event by James D. Long and Initiation to War by Robert N. Charrette.

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"Command One, this is Pursuit Two. Two inbound blips on an intersect course. Either they've got damn fast 'Mechs or a pair of hovercraft."

"Confirmed, Pursuit Two. Switch to Guardian." Rose watched the long-range scanner become suddenly cloudy as Ajax activated the Guardian electronic countermeasure suite. The ECM system was designed to provide a cloud of electromagnetic disturbance that would make targeting the mercenaries virtually impossible until the Clans got to close range. It was the perfect counter to the Clans' longer ranges. As long as the enemy didn't have a line of sight, they would have a difficult time tracking the Thorns inside the cloud. Of course, the cloud itself was very easy to spot.
Under the umbrella of the Guardian the Black Thorns picked up the pace. Rose switched to the short-range scanner because the long-range version was effectively blind while the Guardian was engaged.

-----

"Keep up the good work, Pursuit One. Now confirm the kill and let's get out of here. Pursuit Two, Guardian off."
Rose switched back to long-range scan as the mercenaries went deeper into the city. Gradually, offices replaced factories and the lighting improved. Rose knew that the Clans were fully aware of his approach. Panicked civilians were reacting to media reports of the first encounter, sending most away from the battle zone, but others toward it. Traffic became increasingly congested, forcing the mercenaries to divert from their original path three separate times.

Quote

Making sure that Trahn's Raven had him under its electronic screen, Kelly found himself a long fire lane through the streets of Hinchuan. He picked a spot that put his missiles at maximum effective range. He'd be in range for the Pillager's intimidating gauss weapons, but the Raven's Guardian suite ought to shift the odds in his favor. It wouldn't matter much, he told himself, he wasn't intending a duel. All he wanted to do was get out there long enough to send ten LRMs downrange. He just needed to distract Crawford.




-----

The far shore would be little better than a practice firing range for the Pillager. Worse, any Vigilante 'Mech on the far bank would likely be outside the Raven's protective screen. If the Raven were over there, the reciprocal would apply to anyone remaining on the Hinchuan bank.
"If Trahn can cross somewhere down the canal, I could jump over anywhere," JJ suggested. "Her Guardian suite will give us the best cover we can get over there and we'll be in flanking position."
"The canal itself is better cover," Sam said.
"It isn't very deep," Kelly pointed out. It was three to four meters mostly, deep enough for the barges that traversed it, but barely more than waist deep to the light 'Mechs. "It's not enough for a submerged approach."
"We don't need it to be," Sam stated. "The banks give us another couple of meters. The Commandos can crouch, and moving along the near embankment, we won't be seen. Better still we might be able to stay within reach of Trahn's Guardian suite.

(The relevant excerpts are viewable here and here.)

What MWO's implementation of Guardian ECM does:

• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, the Beagle Active Probe is of no use in extending this range.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, it takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM, Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, you cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, you cannot achieve any missile locks.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM, your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.
  
• ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

Other than affecting TAG, the MWO implementation of Guardian seems to generally be within the bounds of BT canon.

Most likely (IMO), the Clans' counterpart to Guardian would behave identically to what we have now (including having the same operating ranges), except being less massive (weighing 1.0 tons, vs 1.5 tons) and more compact (consuming 1 critical, vs 2 criticals) - which would also be in-line with what is described in BattleTech.

And assuming MWO gets that far down the BT timeline, Angel ECM (that many on this forum erroneously accuse MWO's Guardian of emulating) should/would behave as a two-for-one ECM suite with a couple of extra bells-and-whistles.

Spoiler

Guardian ECM (TechManual, pg. 213)
"This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear."

Angel ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

• "Derived from captured Clan technology, research on the Angel ECM Suite began shortly after the Battle of Luthien as part of an effort to counter the increasingly sophisticated electronic warfare systems of the modern battlefield. Essentially a boosted, broader-spectrum version of the Guardian ECM, the Angel was shelved numerous times due to cost overruns and ultimately saved only with aid from ComStar."
  
• "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
  
• "Units equipped with Stealth Armor can use the Angel ECM in place of the Guardian ECM for the same effect, using the same rules."
  
• "If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM." (TacOps, pg. 100)
  
• "An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1 ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets." (TacOps, pg. 102)

-----

The Guardian ECM Suite ("...typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors...") is a multi-spectrum electronic warfare system that likely includes electronic radar jamming equipment, some degree of laser jamming equipment, an infrared countermeasures (IRCM) system (likely very similar to the planned CIRCM system), a sonar jamming system (see here and here), and some system meant to confuse magnetometers and magnetic anomaly detectors.

The Angel ECM suite is really just a single box containing two sets of (souped-up) Guardian ECM innards.

By contrast, however, Beagle has suffered substantially more (by comparison to Guardian) in the transition from BT to MWO as a result of many of its own advanced properties not being ported-over.

Spoiler

I would like to see Beagle get more of the abilities it has in BattleTech - namely, some the of abilites it has under TacOps' advanced rules.

• able to detect hidden units (perhaps implementable as "can maintain targeting through buildings, forests, and weather, but not through hills or other solid terrain"; TacOps, pg. 99 and Total Warfare, pgs. 259-260)
  
• targeting bonus (perhaps implementable as a slight (~5%?) boost to missile lock speed and/or a slight (~5%?) boost to convergence (if convergence should ever be re-made to be non-instantaneous); TacOps, pgs. 99)
  
• greater information gathering (perhaps implementable as seeing a HTAL armor display, component health, and remaining ammo counts of a target (rather than the "paper doll" and a simple weapon listing); TacOps, pgs. 99 and 219)
  
• can detect minefields (if Thunder LRMs and/or Thunder Arrow Missiles are ever implemented; TacOps, pgs. 99 and 210)
  
• can see ghost targets (generated by ECM Suites and Command Consoles, if the ability is implemented) for what they are (TacOps, pgs. 99 and 101-102)
  
• can monitor and make use of remote sensors (TacOps, pgs. 224 and 375)
  
• can have its abilities degraded (or even completely negated) in maps (or just small sections thereof) subject to heavy planetary electromagnetic interference (TacOps, pg. 55)

That Beagle can now burn through Guardian's ECM field at short range (something it could do, albeit poorly, in TT under the advanced TT rules) helps a lot.

• "Any unit mounting an ECM suite can potentially defeat an active probe on a 2D6 dice roll against a Target Number of 8. If the roll fails, the unit must reveal its information." (Tactical Operations, pg. 219)
  
• See the final paragraph of the example scenario (in italics) on pg. 225 of Tactical operations, with regard to the Guardian-equipped "VTOL in Hex I" vs an opposing BAP scan.

Admittedly, most of the above-listed items would require new game mechanics to be implemented... but they'd still be interesting!

Again, the Clan-built counterpart is generally similar to the IS-built Beagle, save for being less massive (weighing 1.0 tons, vs 1.5 tons) and more compact (consuming 1 critical, vs 2 criticals) and (in BattleTech) having slightly greater range-extension capabilities (for BT, this was 1350 meters (45 hexes) for the Clan Active Probe versus 1080 meters (36 hexes) for the IS-built Beagle; see pg. 222 of TacOps) and generally-greater ECM-burnthrough ranges (as the S/M/L brackets are larger).

And on top of all that, none of the features of the Command Console are implemented as-yet, and C3 is wholly absent (what's in-game now is the basic data sharing package that is a standard feature of all BattleMechs; see pg. 39 of TechManual); the significance of this is that the Clans did not have equivalents of either system (though, the presence of both the Masakari Prime and Puma Prime in PGI's Clan Collection would imply that the Clans would get access to their Targeting Computers, the implementation of which is yet to be described by PGI), and the lack of implementation of both the Command Console and C3 deprives the IS of some of its unique advantages.

[Kyone Akashi]

Strum Wealh, on 23 December 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Other than affecting TAG, the MWO implementation of Guardian seems to generally be within the bounds of BT canon.

The Guardian suite also prevents basic targeting and missile locks - which is the most critical deviation from the canon, I'd say.


"ECM does not affect LRM Indirect Fire or Streak in any way, shape or form.
Angel ECM can disable Streak's ability to lock on.
In order to create an interesting game, the MWO team has to take certain creative liberties. That such liberties are not supported by the board game is rather irrelevant."
- official Battletech forums : Ask the Writers

In addition to sabotaging Artemis, I would much rather have ECM just prevent automatic sensor tracking (forcing you to manually hold the crosshair over the enemy 'Mech and holding "R", representing the pilot using the rest of his or her equipment to achieve a lock), obscure status readouts (effectively jamming the paperdoll), and preventing the use of C3 for all enemy units within 180m - and with the latter, I do not just mean the exchange of sensor data, but also Friend/Foe Identification, causing affected units to have all 'Mechs on their display cycle from green to red and back as long as they're jammed.

I would also like to see ECM's capability to create ghost targets, though this should of course be an alternate mode to be triggered separately (it would suck if you want to close in undetected but broadcast two companies of fake signals all around you).

With this, ECM would become a tool for recon units to monitor enemy movements undetected (if they are cautious) or enemy groups to require visual detection as they move about the battlefield, as well as harassers to create confusion among enemy formations. For the latter to not become too chaotic, however, the unit emitting the jamming field should always be identified with a red [ECM] tag, so that jammed enemies at least know who is responsible and so that they can focus fire on that 'Mech (otherwise we'd end up with too many cases of a single ECM suite causing a whole team to rip itself apart).

The Guardian suite has been nerfed quite a bit by now (most notably due to Beagle now being able to nullify jamming), but it's still sad to see it being focused on simply denying missile locks rather than becoming the tactical tool it is supposed to be. It's an entirely different mode of operation compared to the canon/TT.

I do like your ideas for the BAP, though. But as far as I know, the missile lock speed bonus is already implemented?

[Strum Wealh]

Kyone Akashi, on 24 December 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

The Guardian suite also prevents basic targeting and missile locks - which is the most critical deviation from the canon, I'd say.

"ECM does not affect LRM Indirect Fire or Streak in any way, shape or form.
Angel ECM can disable Streak's ability to lock on.
In order to create an interesting game, the MWO team has to take certain creative liberties. That such liberties are not supported by the board game is rather irrelevant."
- official Battletech forums : Ask the Writers

In addition to sabotaging Artemis, I would much rather have ECM just prevent automatic sensor tracking (forcing you to manually hold the crosshair over the enemy 'Mech and holding "R", representing the pilot using the rest of his or her equipment to achieve a lock), obscure status readouts (effectively jamming the paperdoll), and preventing the use of C3 for all enemy units within 180m - and with the latter, I do not just mean the exchange of sensor data, but also Friend/Foe Identification, causing affected units to have all 'Mechs on their display cycle from green to red and back as long as they're jammed.

Actually, MWO's Guardian did originally nullify the IFF system, albeit by stripping all opposing units within its effective range of their designator triangles (that is, no IFF designation at all rather than cycling through blue/green/red/black).

Quote

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

• You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  
• You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  
• You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  
• Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

The the interaction between MWO's rendition of Guardian & the missile locks, I would imagine, was established from the standpoint of internal consistency and "making sense" (much like how the Gauss Rifle and lighter ACs lost their minimum ranges in the transition from BT to MWO).

Quote

Will the ranges of the BattleMechs' weapons - and the relationships between them - be more similar to those from the BattleTech tabletop game (including, perhaps, some implementation of any of the minimum, short, medium, long, and extreme range brackets), or those from the previous MechWarrior computer games? –Strum Wealh

[DAVID] With minimum ranges, it depends on how justified we can be in putting them into the game without them being silly. For PPCs, there’s mentions in the lore about they don’t reach a full charge at close ranges so as not to damage the attacker’s own electronic systems. LRMs, being meant for long range, do not necessarily arm before they clear a certain distance. But it’s harder to justify why you can’t accurately fire an Autocannon/2 or Autocannon/5 up close, other than it was a balance to their long range in the tabletop game, so they won’t be affected by any sort of minimum range. The tabletop long ranges, on the other hand, we’re interpreting as the maximum effective range. Lasers, AC slugs, and whatnot will travel past this range, but will begin to do less and less damage, and the effects of gravity on any sort of physical projectile will make it harder to hit your target. Missiles reaching the limits of their range will automatically detonate.

"If Guardian can effectively render the 'Mech's targeting system deaf and blind (by negating much of its sensor capabilities), how is that same targeting system to be able to actually target anything?", is how I would imagine the argument went.

That being said, I do agree that it would have been more interesting to have seen the other sensor types (which should also have some limited anti-ECM capability) play a more prominent role, together with the alternate missile guidance systems - e.g. tracking an opposing 'Mech via thermal sensors & attacking it with Heat-Seeking Missiles, which would have lower default tracking strengths than the "standard" (radar-guided) missiles but would be more useful in conditions where standard missiles suffer due to ECM interference.

Additionally, it should be noted that standard SRMs were also guided munitions (where the normal guidance system could be replaced with one of the several alternate guidance packages (including heat-seekers and emissions-tracking Listen-Kill warheads), or removed entirely & replaced with a larger warhead to create Dead-Fire Missiles).
(It should laso be noted that the majority of the alternate guidance systems weren't compatible with Stereak, Artemis, Narc, or TAG systems.)

Kyone Akashi, on 24 December 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

I would also like to see ECM's capability to create ghost targets, though this should of course be an alternate mode to be triggered separately (it would suck if you want to close in undetected but broadcast two companies of fake signals all around you).

With this, ECM would become a tool for recon units to monitor enemy movements undetected (if they are cautious) or enemy groups to require visual detection as they move about the battlefield, as well as harassers to create confusion among enemy formations. For the latter to not become too chaotic, however, the unit emitting the jamming field should always be identified with a red [ECM] tag, so that jammed enemies at least know who is responsible and so that they can focus fire on that 'Mech (otherwise we'd end up with too many cases of a single ECM suite causing a whole team to rip itself apart).

Agreed.

Kyone Akashi, on 24 December 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

The Guardian suite has been nerfed quite a bit by now (most notably due to Beagle now being able to nullify jamming), but it's still sad to see it being focused on simply denying missile locks rather than becoming the tactical tool it is supposed to be. It's an entirely different mode of operation compared to the canon/TT.

I do like your ideas for the BAP, though. But as far as I know, the missile lock speed bonus is already implemented?

Beagle has the "25% decreased target info acquisition time" bonus & each of Artemis, Narc, and TAG have a "Decreases missile lock on time by 50%" bonus, but to the best of my knowledge (and do correct me if I'm mistaken) Beagle does not directly boost the missile lock speed.

I'd also like to see Guardian be a bit less focused on missiles and more on general EW/IW, though I would imagine that such a refocusing would need to be accompanied by a near-complete overhaul of the missile implementation and I would think that PGI has more pressing matters (such as the new UI, getting some form of CW up and running, and getting the Clans ready) to address.

[Kyone Akashi]

Strum Wealh, on 24 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Actually, MWO's Guardian did originally nullify the IFF system, albeit by stripping all opposing units within its effective range of their designator triangles (that is, no IFF designation at all rather than cycling through blue/green/red/black).

Ah, it's been too long ago ...

Though I have to confess, I gave MWO a break after getting roflstomped by ECM-Streakravens all the time, so I did not play long whilst this (rather fitting, imo) feature was active. Bugged SRM splash damage, weird hit boxes and a monopoly on always-hitting Streak missiles made that period of the game a bit un-fun. At that time, I only piloted a Light myself, though as I returned I finally gave other weight classes a try - even before the splash damage fix, it was an entirely different experience as a Medium, just because the bug was not as extreme if you had bigger-sized components.

I'm happy to say that piloting my Jenner started being fun again long ago, though!

Strum Wealh, on 24 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

The the interaction between MWO's rendition of Guardian & the missile locks, I would imagine, was established from the standpoint of internal consistency and "making sense" (much like how the Gauss Rifle and lighter ACs lost their minimum ranges in the transition from BT to MWO).
"If Guardian can effectively render the 'Mech's targeting system deaf and blind (by negating much of its sensor capabilities), how is that same targeting system to be able to actually target anything?", is how I would imagine the argument went.

Mhh, I dunno .. a Battlemech has loads of sensor equipment, and only a portion of them is actually affected by the Guardian suite.

Interestingly, in the background, all Battlemechs are equipped with some measure of ECM and ECCM by default (which is why a lot of "modern" military equipment wouldn't work, or at least not with the same efficiency), it's just that this oversaturation leads to them cancelling each other out. Only the Guardian-suite is such a sophisticated and massive piece of electronics that it is able to pierce through this basic layer of ever-present electronic warfare and have a notable effect on things.

"In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical bubble roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear. Even today, the Guardian's recovered technology remains highly adaptable, not only capable of recognizing and countering the EW features of its Star League counterparts but also newer technologies such as the C3 and C3i systems. The Capellan Confederation has expanded on the Guardian's utility with their new stealth armor system, a new role that will assure this powerful piece of technology a place on the battlefield for the foreseeable future."
- BT TechManual

So, the Guardian suite is originally limited to scrambling electronic communications - magscan, infrared, optical arrays and many other systems should (depending on environmental conditions) have little problem detecting and tracking an ECM-shielded 'Mech, simply because they operate on a principle that is wholly unaffected by what the Guardian suite can do:

"In its entirety, a BattleMech's targeting and tracking (T&T) system includes a sophisticated set of sensors and computers to process data. These systems are getting ever more sophisticated as technology is recovered and expanded. Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others."
- BT TechManual

That is, after all, the very reason for why Stealth Armor was invented: to supplement the Guardian suite and protect a thusly equipped 'Mech from other manners of detection also. There would be no reason for Stealth Armor to exist if Guardian is sufficient to render something entirely invisible.

"Based on an effort to recover the long-lost Star League-era null signature system, the Capellan Confederation's stealth armor technology is actually a complex system of heat baffles and layers of radar- and EW-absorbent materials that - while about as bulky as ferro-fibrous armor - provides the same physical protection as standard armor. Limited exclusively to BattleMechs, this system requires the use of a Guardian ECM suite to function, but when activated, the 'Mech becomes virtually invisible to hostile sensors and EW devices. Radical in form and design, stealth armor can undermine even the abilities of active probes, though this system also scrambles its user's own targeting systems and traps a great deal of waste heat when active."
- BT TechManual

What would have been a better implementation and still kept internal consistency was if you could always launch LRMs or Streaks at an ECM-shielded target - but the missiles themselves would lose lock as soon as they enter the 180m bubble and continue to "dumb-fly" on the last position they were targeting, because your 'Mech would be unable to feed them with new targeting data, even though you do maintain a lock. The ECM would simply disrupt the link between your 'Mech and the missile.

Strum Wealh, on 24 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Additionally, it should be noted that standard SRMs were also guided munitions (where the normal guidance system could be replaced with one of the several alternate guidance packages (including heat-seekers and emissions-tracking Listen-Kill warheads), or removed entirely & replaced with a larger warhead to create Dead-Fire Missiles).

Hai, I did read about that - and I think I would have preferred this. Streak would have still had its place, perhaps by giving SSRMs a better tracking rate whilst SRMs would be much less manoeuvrable, and worse at adapting to moving targets.

Just like I would have preferred if SRMs and LRMs would "ripple-fire" rather than be launched as a single cloud. There's just something to be said about a "katyusha"-style launch sequence.

Strum Wealh, on 24 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Beagle has the "25% decreased target info acquisition time" bonus & each of Artemis, Narc, and TAG have a "Decreases missile lock on time by 50%" bonus, but to the best of my knowledge (and do correct me if I'm mistaken) Beagle does not directly boost the missile lock speed.

I do have a BAP in my armoury, but I have never actually equipped my missileboat with it, so unfortunately I lack first hand experience. I have often read about this bonus on the forums, though.

Strum Wealh, on 24 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'd also like to see Guardian be a bit less focused on missiles and more on general EW/IW, though I would imagine that such a refocusing would need to be accompanied by a near-complete overhaul of the missile implementation and I would think that PGI has more pressing matters (such as the new UI, getting some form of CW up and running, and getting the Clans ready) to address.

Hai, hai. Sad, but true.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 25 December 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Kyone Akashi, on 25 December 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Mhh, I dunno .. a Battlemech has loads of sensor equipment, and only a portion of them is actually affected by the Guardian suite.

Interestingly, in the background, all Battlemechs are equipped with some measure of ECM and ECCM by default (which is why a lot of "modern" military equipment wouldn't work, or at least not with the same efficiency), it's just that this oversaturation leads to them cancelling each other out. Only the Guardian-suite is such a sophisticated and massive piece of electronics that it is able to pierce through this basic layer of ever-present electronic warfare and have a notable effect on things.

"In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical bubble roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear. Even today, the Guardian's recovered technology remains highly adaptable, not only capable of recognizing and countering the EW features of its Star League counterparts but also newer technologies such as the C3 and C3i systems. The Capellan Confederation has expanded on the Guardian's utility with their new stealth armor system, a new role that will assure this powerful piece of technology a place on the battlefield for the foreseeable future."
- BT TechManual

So, the Guardian suite is originally limited to scrambling electronic communications - magscan, infrared, optical arrays and many other systems should (depending on environmental conditions) have little problem detecting and tracking an ECM-shielded 'Mech, simply because they operate on a principle that is wholly unaffected by what the Guardian suite can do:

"In its entirety, a BattleMech's targeting and tracking (T&T) system includes a sophisticated set of sensors and computers to process data. These systems are getting ever more sophisticated as technology is recovered and expanded. Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others."
- BT TechManual

That is, after all, the very reason for why Stealth Armor was invented: to supplement the Guardian suite and protect a thusly equipped 'Mech from other manners of detection also. There would be no reason for Stealth Armor to exist if Guardian is sufficient to render something entirely invisible.

"Based on an effort to recover the long-lost Star League-era null signature system, the Capellan Confederation's stealth armor technology is actually a complex system of heat baffles and layers of radar- and EW-absorbent materials that - while about as bulky as ferro-fibrous armor - provides the same physical protection as standard armor. Limited exclusively to BattleMechs, this system requires the use of a Guardian ECM suite to function, but when activated, the 'Mech becomes virtually invisible to hostile sensors and EW devices. Radical in form and design, stealth armor can undermine even the abilities of active probes, though this system also scrambles its user's own targeting systems and traps a great deal of waste heat when active."
- BT TechManual

What would have been a better implementation and still kept internal consistency was if you could always launch LRMs or Streaks at an ECM-shielded target - but the missiles themselves would lose lock as soon as they enter the 180m bubble and continue to "dumb-fly" on the last position they were targeting, because your 'Mech would be unable to feed them with new targeting data, even though you do maintain a lock. The ECM would simply disrupt the link between your 'Mech and the missile.

IMO, it seems from the TechManual description - and that found under the entry for the Nightshade VTOL on page 92 of TRO:2750 ("The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors. This signal projects a "cloak" to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes.") - that Guardian is able to disrupt active radio- and microwave-based sensors and comm systems, with some additional jamming capability in other areas (e.g. lidar (which uses UV and/or near-IR, and sometimes visible-spectrum), sonar, magnetometers).

By contrast, the descriptions of the other sensor types' gameplay rules found in Tactical Operations (IR on page 223, MagScan on pages 223-224, and Seismic on pages 222-223) seem to imply the use of passive versions of those sensor types.

Quote

When using infrared sensors, any time a unit that tracks heat is “hot,” it can be more easily detected. For each heat-induced MP modifier on the target, the range of a sensor is expanded for that unit(s) by 1 hex; add 1 additional hex if the unit has been hit by an inferno attack, or is standing in a hex that is on fire.

...

Units that are not “hot” cannot be detected by an IR sensor scan.

----------

When using magscan sensors, the larger a unit is, the more easily it can be detected. For any unit from 80 to 100 tons, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 1 hex (as described above for infrared sensors). For any unit from 101 to 1,000 tons, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 2 hexes. For any Large Craft or Large Naval Vessel, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 3 hexes.

Units that weigh less than 20 tons cannot be detected by a magscan sensor, including all infantry.

If using Planetary Conditions, a magscan will not detect a unit that occupies a Heavy Industrial Zone hex.

----------

A unit must have expended MP (of any type) during the Movement Phase of the turn in which the Sensor Check is made in order to be detected by a seismic sensor (this includes units landing in a hex after expending Jumping MP.

Airborne units (including units expending VTOL MP) and submerged units (provided they are not moving along the bottom of the water hex) cannot use seismic sensors, and they cannot be spotted by seismic sensors.

In other words, the BT rules for IR sensors work much like MWO's thermal vision (e.g. one doesn't stand out if one isn't running hot), MagScan only picks one out if one is of sufficient mass (and, given how MAD works in reality, should require the target to also be at least somewhat ferromegnetic and/or producing its own magnetic field; 100 tons of carbon-fibre/ceramics/wood/etc with no metal whatsoever shouldn't show up on MagScan at all), and Seismic requires that the target be both on the ground and moving - all of those require the target to be emitting energy that is listened for and detected (the very definition of passive sensor), while Guardian jams any system that actively emits its own energies and listens for the reflection/echo (the active sensors).
(Also of note is that the "ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table" on page 223 of TacOps indicates that none of the ECM or stealth systems inflict any modifiers against IR, MagScan, or Seismic sensor checks... And one might think that the heat-baffles used by both Stealth Armor and the Null Signature system might/should impart some modifier against even passive IR sensors (as the target is releasing less IR energy into the environment)? )

Of course, Guardian's downside is that the electronic noise it produces to create that sensor disruption is itself highly detectable (MWO's "low signal" warning and sensor-jamming icon), and itself serves as a homing source for Anti-Radiation Missiles (similar to those used in reality, and which (unfortunately) are not available to the IS in BattleTech until the mid-3060s... except in a weaker form under the guise of the Listen-Kill Missiles ).

Stealth Armor, then, merely "fills in some of the holes" in Guardian's protection by including heat baffles (that serve to reduce the IR emissions of the unit so equipped; in MWO terms, the result would being far less visible - or even outright invisible - on thermal vision) and "EM-absorbing layers" (which would not only serve as a RAM layer, but could keep the EM fields produced by the 'Mechs own internal equipment contained via various methods of magnetic shielding - thus potentially rendering the unit so equipped less visible to magnetometers).
Though, Stealth Armor still requires an ECM suite of some type to be both installed and operational in order to function; it serves as an extension to an ECM suite, rather than a replacement for it.

Angel, on the other hand, is essentially "more & better Guardian" - it does the same things and does them better (e.g. greater modifiers in BT), overpowers equipment that Guardian cannot, and acts as two separate Guardian suites (such that one could double-disrupt, double-counter, both disrupt and counter at the same time, either disrupt or counter while generating ghost targets, and so on) with a relatively-small increase in mass (2.0 tons for Angel, vs 1.5 tons for Guardian) and no increase in volume (2 crits consumed for both units).

Kyone Akashi, on 25 December 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Hai, I did read about that - and I think I would have preferred this. Streak would have still had its place, perhaps by giving SSRMs a better tracking rate whilst SRMs would be much less manoeuvrable, and worse at adapting to moving targets.

Just like I would have preferred if SRMs and LRMs would "ripple-fire" rather than be launched as a single cloud. There's just something to be said about a "katyusha"-style launch sequence.

Personally, I could go either way on the launch patterns... which would be an interesting element to implement if PGI ever introduces weapon variations (e.g. an "Ayukawa Slapper SRM-6" might fire all of the missiles at once while a "Shannon Six-Shooter SRM-6" ripple-fires).

Guided SRMs with alternate munition types (as well as alternate LRM munition types) would have been great, and are hopefully still a long-term goal of PGI (as mentioned in ATD #17).

Kyone Akashi, on 25 December 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I do have a BAP in my armoury, but I have never actually equipped my missileboat with it, so unfortunately I lack first hand experience. I have often read about this bonus on the forums, though.

I tend to loadout my own 'Mechs with electronics and such by default (so all of them have Beagle and AMS - they'd probably also have Command Consoles if they did anything & ECM if they could carry them, plus relatively light armaments with how little tonnage & space would be left ).

That being said, a couple of other posters later in the thread you've cited (here and here) also debunked the thought that Beagle directly assists in lock speed.

Kyone Akashi, on 25 December 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Hai, hai. Sad, but true.

As they say, c'est la vie.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 26 December 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Slater01]

Well Kyone and Strum,
I can't say I know as much about the electronics in BT as you guys. But good too read anyhow.

I just want a coffee cup holder in my cockpit. And to have my Inner Sphere Hunchie to have a fighting chance verses a 12medium laser Nova.

Oh and of course, to know what the hell is PGI going to do with Clan mechs and match making? On that note, I think I heard Russ say somewhere(NGNG?) that Clan mechs will be balanced by a number of factors, like Heat, build restrictions, and I'm pretty sure he said weight restrictions. Although this of course wasn't an official statement. Anyway I guess time will tell, and hopefully a new CommandChair post.

Edited by Slater01, 26 December 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Sephlock]

Slater01, on 17 December 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Ok lets "pretend" i (a house Davion Loyalist) drops $4240.00 on some clan mechs. Could i use those mechs to defend the Inner Sphere? And if I can, hows that related to the lore of 3050? Has there been any info on this subject? And if not, then why would an IS loyalist buy a clan package?

Sure, but you need to remember you can't re-arrange things in a Clammer

Quote

Can I.s. Houses Use Clammer Mechs In Cw?

[Strum Wealh]

Slater01, on 26 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Well Kyone and Strum,
I can't say I know as much about the electronics in BT as you guys. But good too read anyhow.

I just want a coffee cup holder in my cockpit. And to have my Inner Sphere Hunchie to have a fighting chance verses a 12medium laser Nova.

Oh and of course, to know what the hell is PGI going to do with Clan mechs and match making? On that note, I think I heard Russ say somewhere(NGNG?) that Clan mechs will be balanced by a number of factors, like Heat, build restrictions, and I'm pretty sure he said weight restrictions. Although this of course wasn't an official statement. Anyway I guess time will tell, and hopefully a new CommandChair post.

There was a Command Chair post (see here) where David Bradley (via Paul Inouye) described the (currently-)planned build mechanics for the Clans' OmniMechs (which, in theory, would also carry over into the eventual IS OmniMechs) - where PGI's plan essentially amounts to making use of the construction & customization limitations found in BattleTech (specifically, as found on pages 47-57 of TechManual).

Quote

Clan BattleMechs and How They’ll Be Built/Customized
First, let’s get the obligatory disclaimer out of the way. As with all works in progress, our OmniMech design is subject to change, especially any of the smaller details. Balance is key, as we wish for OmniMechs to be neither inadequately nor overly restrictive, and explained below is the path we aim to take to get there.

We will be designing and allowing customization of Clan OmniMechs in a manner similar to the OmniMech rules that are implemented in the BattleTech tabletop game. In the BattleTech lore, OmniMechs are capable of mounting weapons and equipment in modular pods that can be swapped around with relative ease between battles. This is in contrast to standard BattleMechs where virtually every weapon and system is hardwired and fully integrated into the chassis, slowing repairs and especially hampering customization.
Because the standard Mechs within MWO are already essentially capable of instant repairs and a wide range of customization between battles, it’s been a little tricky to figure out how to introduce Clan OmniMechs that keep their Omni flavor. In the end we decided on a system that essentially uses modular hardpoints.

With a standard MWO BattleMech, you buy a variant of a particular chassis, for example, a Hunchback HBK-4G. The Mech comes with a set of default weapons and equipment as well as a fixed set of hardpoints in each location. You can customize your loadout however you wish, but will always be under the restrictions of hardpoints, critical slots, and tonnage.

With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location.

For example, let’s say that you purchase the imaginary OmniMech, the Irate Tapir. You decide to purchase the B configuration because its default loadout fits with your play style. However, it doesn’t have any missile hardpoints and you really want to be able to fit a Narc Beacon to help out your teammates with their LRMs. What you can do is swap out the B left arm, which has two ballistic hardpoints, for the left arm from the C configuration, which has a missile and an energy hardpoint.

This sort of swapping can be done for all locations except for the center torso. The CT will be what identifies the Mech for purposes such as XP and Mech efficiencies. You also will not be able to choose any hardpoint combination that you want, but rather the choices will be set, and determined by the design team, based on the canon configurations for theMech.

Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

We aim to follow these as closely as possible, but the restrictions may be eased if gameplay and balance require it.

We’re also looking at tying in systems unique to MWO, such as our quirks system, into OmniMech design, in order to even out certain configuration’s locations that may be seen as better to use than others. For example, each part of each configuration could have its own effect on the overall quirks of the Mech. This could mean that your choice of which configuration’s part you use in each location could change how your Mech plays.

And why this is significant:

Spoiler

Because that's the way OmniMechs worked in TT/canon - the engine (both rating & engine type), structure (both type & locations of crits), armor (both armor type & locations of crits, as well as distribution of armor points), and a few other things (including fixed mounts for items that would otherwise be mounted in OmniTech pods - like the Flamer on the Puma and the first five Jump Jets on the Thor) are fixed and immutable, leaving a fixed tonnage and distribution of criticals as "pod space".

• The Daishi has 50.50 tons of pod space available (50.5% of total mass) & carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum).
  
• The Gladiator has 26.50 tons of pod space available (27.9% of total mass) & carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum).
  
• The Masakari has 32.50 tons of pod space available (38.2% of total mass) & carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
  
• The Man O' War has 21.50 tons of pod space available (26.9% of total mass) & carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum).
  
• The Mad Cat has 27.50 tons of pod space available (36.7% of total mass) & carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum).
  
• The Thor has 22.50 tons of pod space available (32.1% of total mass) & carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (84% of maximum).
  
• The Loki has 28.50 tons of pod space available (43.9% of total mass) & carries 8 tons of Standard Armor (61% of maximum).
  
• The Vulture has 28.00 tons of pod space available (46.7% of total mass) & carries 8.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (81% of maximum).
  
• The Ryoken has 23.00 tons of pod space available (41.8% of total mass) & carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
  
• The Black Hawk has 16.00 tons of pod space available (32.0% of total mass) & carries 10 tons of Standard Armor (95% of maximum).
  
• The Fenris has 9.50 tons of pod space available (21.1% of total mass) & carries 7.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (94% of maximum).
  
• The Dragonfly has 8.50 tons of pod space available (21.3% of total mass) & carries 7 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
  
• The Puma has 16.00 tons of pod space available (45.7% of total mass) & carries 6 tons of Clan FF Armor (97% of maximum).
  
• The Uller has 16.00 tons of pod space available (53.3% of total mass) & carries 4 tons of Clan FF Armor (72% of maximum).
  
• The Koshi has 7.50 tons of pod space available (30.0% of total mass) & carries 3.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (75% of maximum).
  
• The Dasher has 6.50 tons of pod space available (32.5% of total mass) & carries 2 tons of Clan FF Armor (55% of maximum).

Moreover, it is the specific characteristics and locations of the locked-down base components (and the resulting overall characteristics of the base 'Mech) that provides the needed differentiation for when when there will be multiple OmniMechs of the same mass/weight - that is what provides the reason beyond "smallest profile/smallest or most-broken hitboxes" for choosing a Fenris over a Shadow Cat or vice versa (as both are 45-ton Clan OmniMechs), or for choosing a Night Gyr over a Mad Cat or vise versa (as both are 75-ton Clan OmniMechs), or for choosing a Nobori-nin over a Black Hawk or vice versa (as both are 50-ton Clan OmniMechs), or for choosing an Uller over a Hankyu or vice versa (as both are 30-ton Clan OmniMechs).

Fenris, base OmniMech: 9.5 tons of pod space, ~30 open criticals
HD: x1 Endo-Steel, no open slots
CT: x1 Endo-Steel, x1 open slot
LT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Endo-Steel, x2 Ferro-Fibrous, x7 open slots
RT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Endo-Steel, x2 Ferro-Fibrous, x7 open slots
LA: x1 Ferro-Fibrous, x8-9 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
RA: x1 Ferro-Fibrous, x7-9 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
LL: x2 Endo-Steel, no open slots
RL: x2 Endo-Steel, no open slots

Shadow Cat, base OmniMech: 17 tons of pod space, ~22 open criticals
HD: x1 Endo-Steel, no open slots
CT: MASC (x2 criticals), no open slots
LT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Jump Jet, x1 Endo-Steel, x3 Ferro-Fibrous, x5 open slots
RT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Jump Jet, x1 Endo-Steel, x4 Ferro-Fibrous, x4 open slots
LA: x2 Endo-Steel, x7-8 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
RA: x2 Endo-Steel, x6-8 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be added/removed on a per-configuration basis]
LL: x2 Jump Jets, no open slots
RL: x2 Jump Jets, no open slots

With that, there would be loadouts on one OmniMech of a given weight that generally could not be duplicated easily or exactly (if at all) on another OmniMech of the same weight.

The same Command Chair post also discusses some possibilities for adjustments to the individual Clan-built weapon systems, and indicates that Zellbrigen (the underlying rules of the Clans' ritualistic dueling style of combat) will most likely not be used as a gameplay mechanic.

Quote

Clan Technology was initially implemented in BattleTech Table Top rules as a base around a new breed of warriors that adhered to a certain set of combat “rules”. The term “zellbrigen” refers to a style of combat which restricted the type of activities a MechWarrior would do during a fight. MechWarrior Online does not include this rule set for two main reasons. First off, it is a rule set that not everyone will want to adhere to, and secondly it would not be very fun to anyone not familiar with the rules in the first place (a much broader audience). Even through lore, zellbrigen was essentially phased out due to non-adherence by the Inner Sphere MechWarriors on the field of combat.

Though, if anyone has citable sources (linkable forum or social media posts by PGI or IGP staff, timestamps for podcasts, etc) for confirming such things as team sizes (e.g. 12 v 12, 10 v 12, 5 v 8, etc) and other gameplay matters, please do share.

[Hexenhammer]

Between the time clans arrive and CW shows up, it will be IS v IS, IS v Clan, and Clan v Clan.

[Kyone Akashi]

Strum Wealh, on 26 December 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Oddly, though, none of that is reflected in the BT gameplay rules; the "ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table" on page 223 of TacOps indicates that none of the ECM or stealth systems inflict any modifiers against IR, MagScan, or Seismic sensor checks.

I think it fits, actually, because as your quote from the TRO:2750 mentioned, the Guardian does seem to interfere with Magscan, IR, etc ... but not to a sufficient degree to actually prevent detection and missile locks, which is ultimately the only thing that counts for the TT rules. That you cannot accurately identify a target is of little importance as long as you can shoot at it.

That being said, certainly an argument could be made about the specific type of 'Mech being a valuable tactical information. It's possible that the game simply does not consider this detail and files it away as abstraction, perhaps assuming that your pilots would simply attempt visual identification.

Thanks for pointing me towards that TRO, by the way - it certainly helps to better understand the Guardian suite.
From what I can see, this actually fits perfectly to what I suggested earlier ... that you can achieve missile lock, but that the ECM would prevent you from getting a correct "paperdoll" readout of your target.

On a sidenote, there does seem to be a lot of metal on a 'Mech, actually. As per the TechManual, the frame itself is constructed from foamed aluminium surrounded by titanium-alloyed steel, and the outer armour layer is made from a hardened iron alloy.

Strum Wealh, on 26 December 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Guided SRMs with alternate munition types (as well as alternate LRM munition types) would have been great, and are hopefully still a long-term goal of PGI (as mentioned in ATD #17).

wtb Inferno SRMs for my Jenner
It's a preferred tactic of the DCMS!

Strum Wealh, on 26 December 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

That being said, a couple of other posters later in the thread you've cited (here and here) also debunked the thought that Beagle directly assists in lock speed.

Someone ought to update the wiki, then. Is it possible that BAP once did this and it was just patched out again? I know Beagle went through several changes, maybe that was "just a phase". Or the SSRM bit is unintended and thus a bug. Or ... this is all just an urban rumour.

Slater01, on 26 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

I just want a coffee cup holder in my cockpit. And to have my Inner Sphere Hunchie to have a fighting chance verses a 12medium laser Nova.

Yes, I was all like chikusho! when I read that 'Mech's loadout. That being said, with lasers being hitscan weapons, and Clan weaponry apparently also being planned to cause greater heat, it seems that this loadout will be a one-trick-pony capable of dealing a lot of pain, but then taking a lot of time to cool down again. I suppose it comes down to a matter of "approach and evade".
All I can say is that these 'Mechs will likely require a special way of dealing with them - but then again, we already have some of those with the more exotic IS-loadouts like the Splatcat.

Also, I'll always support more cockpit customization.

Strum Wealh, on 26 December 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The same Command Chair post also discusses some possibilities for adjustments to the individual Clan-built weapon systems, and indicates that Zellbrigen (the underlying rules of the Clans' ritualistic dueling style of combat) will most likely not be used as a gameplay mechanic.

As much as some Clan players have suggested this, I never imagined that to work in an online game anyways. The vast majority of gamers will (unfortunately) always be focused on victory first and foremost, with things like honour codes being a secondary concern, at best being thrown out of the window the moment defeat seems imminent.

[Strum Wealh]

Kyone Akashi, on 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I think it fits, actually, because as your quote from the TRO:2750 mentioned, the Guardian does seem to interfere with Magscan, IR, etc ... but not to a sufficient degree to actually prevent detection and missile locks, which is ultimately the only thing that counts for the TT rules. That you cannot accurately identify a target is of little importance as long as you can shoot at it.

That being said, certainly an argument could be made about the specific type of 'Mech being a valuable tactical information. It's possible that the game simply does not consider this detail and files it away as abstraction, perhaps assuming that your pilots would simply attempt visual identification.

However, the TT rules also indicate that, when the sensor rules (part of the Double-Blind Rules found in TacOps) are actually in play, even basic sensors in the absence of any advanced equipment (that is, no Guardian, no Beagle, etc) still fail with disturbing regularity.

"To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. Remember that a spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, which is declared to the gamemaster at the start of the turn." - TacOps, pg. 222

The combined 2D6 probability of [9, 10, 11, or 12] is roughly 27.8% - meaning that (on average) more than one-in-four sensor scans by a BattleMech's primary sensor arrays (even in an environment free of advanced EW packages) fail to detect any given target!

And again, there is the example scenario I cited previously, which does include Beagle and Guardian (and a Void-Sig System):

"Finally the gamemaster turns to the Beagle Active Probe. The ’Mechs in Hexes E, G and J were not revealed by the previous sensors. However, the ’Mech in Hex J has a hill hex in the LOS and so the probe is blocked. That leaves the units in Hexes H, I, E and G. The ’Mech in Hex H mounts the Void-Signature System, while the VTOL in Hex I mounts a standard Guardian ECM (the ’Mechs in Hexes E and G do not mount special equipment). Checking the original dice roll result, the gamemaster sees that a result of 2-3-4 occurred (the original result was a 3). For the units with the special equipment, he now applies those modifiers, as they work against a Beagle: a +6 and +4 modifier, respectively. For the ’Mech in Hex H, that changes the roll from 2-3-4 to 9-10-11, which means it cannot be detected (though the gamemaster would tell the player that an ECM system defeated the scan). For the VTOL in Hex I, the dice roll result is changed to 6-7-8, which actually moved the sensor detection into the short-range band (meaning the VTOL did not mask well enough), and so the VTOL in Hex I is revealed. Finally, the ’Mechs in hexes E and G both are in the short-range bracket for the Beagle Active Probe and so remain hidden." - TacOps, pg. 225

(Note that the example above uses the Line of Sight Diagram on pg. 100 of Total Warfare as its reference for which unit is which & which unit is where relative to the others.)

In that particular case (where, it should be noted, the scanning unit had a host of other positive modifiers backing it up - including having a friendly Mobile HQ unit present, having friendly satellites overhead, and being piloted by a Force Commander), the Guardian was unable to mask well enough at short range (or, alternatively, the Beagle was able to burn through the interference at short range) and would have actually failed even at long range (long range result of 8, versus needing a result of 9+ for the failure-to-detect condition).
However, Guardian carries a +5 modifier against basic sensors (versus the +4 modifier against Beagle) - the same 'Mech, sans Beagle, in the same scenario would have completely failed to detect the VTOL in Hex I at long-range (as the Short/Medium/Long-range results would have been 7/8/9 rather than 6/7/8). Alternatively, the same 'Mech with Beagle would have likewise failed to detect the VTOL at long range if the original sensor check roll had been 4 (or greater) rather than 3 (where the 2D6 probability of a 4 or greater is on the order of 91.6%).

However, it does show that Guardian (and the other ECM & stealth systems) can generate substantial modifiers against the primary sensor arrays (and even Beagle-enhanced sensors), such that it is possible to evade detection at long- and medium-ranges (and even at short ranges, if one is lucky) via use of that equipment.
This also does not contradict the statement from TRO:2750 - "enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain"... however, "can find" is not always the same thing as "will find".

That, then, brings us back to "if the sensors fail to find a target, how does the targeting system - which depends on data gathered by those same sensors - establish a lock against a target that it 'cannot see'?"
IMO, it would seem that PGI's response to that question (perhaps influenced by the relatively-high likelihood of a failure-to-detect condition at long- and medium-ranges in TT?) has been, "it doesn't".

Kyone Akashi, on 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Thanks for pointing me towards that TRO, by the way - it certainly helps to better understand the Guardian suite.
From what I can see, this actually fits perfectly to what I suggested earlier ... that you can achieve missile lock, but that the ECM would prevent you from getting a correct "paperdoll" readout of your target.

On a sidenote, there does seem to be a lot of metal on a 'Mech, actually. As per the TechManual, the frame itself is constructed from foamed aluminium surrounded by titanium-alloyed steel, and the outer armour layer is made from a hardened iron alloy.

Not to mention that the bulk of the mass of a Fusion Engine comes from its shielding, composed of "tungsten-carbide, which is reinforced with short ceramic fibers mixed into the carbide" for Standard Engines and which is "[slimmed] down... and [reinforced]... with a crystalline plastic similar to those of double strength heat sinks".

That whole section of TechManual is such a fun read, yes?

Kyone Akashi, on 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

wtb Inferno SRMs for my Jenner
It's a preferred tactic of the DCMS!

So, burninating the countrysides and all the peoples is (still) a preferred tactic of the DCMS, is it?

**imagines flocks of Inferno-armed Jenners running about with Dalek-esque exclamations of "BURN-IN-ATE! BURN-IN-ATE!"

Kyone Akashi, on 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Someone ought to update the wiki, then. Is it possible that BAP once did this and it was just patched out again? I know Beagle went through several changes, maybe that was "just a phase". Or the SSRM bit is unintended and thus a bug. Or ... this is all just an urban rumour.

It is my understanding that the SSRM issue with Beagle was/is(?) an unintended bug, and one that does not affect standard missiles.

Kyone Akashi, on 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Yes, I was all like chikusho! when I read that 'Mech's loadout. That being said, with lasers being hitscan weapons, and Clan weaponry apparently also being planned to cause greater heat, it seems that this loadout will be a one-trick-pony capable of dealing a lot of pain, but then taking a lot of time to cool down again. I suppose it comes down to a matter of "approach and evade".
All I can say is that these 'Mechs will likely require a special way of dealing with them - but then again, we already have some of those with the more exotic IS-loadouts like the Splatcat.

Also, I'll always support more cockpit customization.

Yeah... it turns out that if the (C)ERML is heat-scaling-linked to the standard MLas (in the same way that the ERLL and standard LLas are linked), firing all of a Black Hawk Prime's CERMLs at once could/would generate something to the tune of 210 units of heat (including "ghost heat").

If that is ultimately the case, I expect many a Black Hawk to die quickly and hilariously via overheating shortly after release.

Kyone Akashi, on 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

As much as some Clan players have suggested this, I never imagined that to work in an online game anyways. The vast majority of gamers will (unfortunately) always be focused on victory first and foremost, with things like honour codes being a secondary concern, at best being thrown out of the window the moment defeat seems imminent.

Quite a few of us Spheroids have suggested it as well, and several (including myself) have put forward methods for implementing at least some parts of it as elements of the game.

Unfortunately, a lot of Zell actually depends on intent (which the computers cannot be trusted to judge accurately), and PGI evidently (IMO) decided that no Zell at all (on their part... which says nothing about whether some player-run Clan units enforce some version of Zell within their own ranks) was preferable (or, at least easier) than enforcing some parts but not others.

[Kyone Akashi]

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

However, the TT rules also indicate that, when the sensor rules (part of the Double-Blind Rules found in TacOps) are actually in play, even basic sensors in the absence of any advanced equipment (that is, no Guardian, no Beagle, etc) still fail with disturbing regularity.

Yes, but only ... ->

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system."
- TacOps p. 223

So the modifiers you are referring to do not apply outside the ECM bubble - detection and missile lock should be possible as normal.

As for magscan and the other standard sensors, you are right in that it does sound like an anomaly between fluff and rules, but the only explanation I could come up with is that the lack of modifiers is simply an abstraction; magscan is affected, but not strong enough to apply a discernible penalty. At least at close distance ... with a possible penalty for long range detection not applying simply because the unit is outside the bubble?

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

That whole section of TechManual is such a fun read, yes?

I do like me some quality technobabble!

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

So, burninating the countrysides and all the peoples is (still) a preferred tactic of the DCMS, is it?

Pfshh, burninating enemy 'Mechs, more like.

"A favorite tactic was for a lance of Jenners (including one or two equipped with Inferno SRMs) to gang up and alpha-strike a much heavier BattleMech at the same time. If the target survived the initial salvo, it was typically badly damaged and running hot due to the Infernos, allowing the Jenners to leap away in different directions to cool down. The Jenners would regroup seconds later to repeat the tactic."
- TRO:3039

Appreciate the video though. I take it the similarity to the Combine crest was not accidental? ;P

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Yeah... it turns out that if the ©ERML is heat-scaling-linked to the standard MLas (in the same way that the ERLL and standard LLas are linked), firing all of a Black Hawk Prime's CERMLs at once could/would generate something to the tune of 210 units of heat (including "ghost heat").

I did not even consider Ghost Heat. Makes me wonder if they'll scale it back for the Clan machines (perhaps explaining it with their superior technology), or if it means that these 'Mechs won't be quite as scary as I imagine them because their pilots are essentially forced to chainfire their lasers.

[Strum Wealh]

Kyone Akashi, on 27 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yes, but only ... ->

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system."
- TacOps p. 223

So the modifiers you are referring to do not apply outside the ECM bubble - detection and missile lock should be possible as normal.

As for magscan and the other standard sensors, you are right in that it does sound like an anomaly between fluff and rules, but the only explanation I could come up with is that the lack of modifiers is simply an abstraction; magscan is affected, but not strong enough to apply a discernible penalty. At least at close distance ... with a possible penalty for long range detection not applying simply because the unit is outside the bubble?

However, actually consulting the referenced LOS Diagram in TotWar (page 100) shows that the distance between the scanning unit ('Mech A) and the VTOL is well in excess of 6 hexes (actually, it's 11 hexes, or 330 meters - almost double Guardian's effect radius!), in addition to the VTOL being at Elevation 15 (one level above the Elevation 14 of Hex I) versus the scanning unit's Elevation 8 (two levels above the elevation of Hex A) - an elevation difference of 42 meters (not that that measure makes much of a difference).

Yet, the example situation in TacOps explicitly states that the modifier from the VTOL's Guardian suite (+4 to the result of sensor roll) is still applied against the scanning unit ("Checking the original dice roll result, the gamemaster sees that a result of 2-3-4 occurred (the original result was a 3). For the units with the special equipment, he now applies those modifiers, as they work against a Beagle: a +6 and +4 modifier, respectively... For the VTOL in Hex I, the dice roll result is changed to 6-7-8, which actually moved the sensor detection into the short-range band (meaning the VTOL did not mask well enough), and so the VTOL in Hex I is revealed."), despite there being no possible way for the scanning unit to be "under the bubble".

Additionally, the 'Mech in Hex H is also at a range of 11 hexes (Hexes H and I are adjacent to one another), and the modifier from its Void-Sig System (+6 to the result of the sensor roll) is also applied against the scanning unit - which allows 'Mech H to successfully avoid detection by 'Mech A's Beagle suite (though, 'Mech A's player would then know that "there is something with an unfriendly ECM suite out there").

The seeming discrepency would be resolved by considering the LOS of 'Mech A's Beagle scan passing through the effect radius to count as being "within" the effect radius - similar to what is actually the case under the standard rules found in TotWar.

"An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." - Total Warfare, pg. 134

Kyone Akashi, on 27 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

I do like me some quality technobabble!

If only we wern't destined to end up on opposing sides of the war for control of the Inner Sphere!
How quickly our differences, across the Sphere, would vanish if we were facing an threat from outside known space.
Until then, however... qué será, será.

Kyone Akashi, on 27 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Pfshh, burninating enemy 'Mechs, more like.

"A favorite tactic was for a lance of Jenners (including one or two equipped with Inferno SRMs) to gang up and alpha-strike a much heavier BattleMech at the same time. If the target survived the initial salvo, it was typically badly damaged and running hot due to the Infernos, allowing the Jenners to leap away in different directions to cool down. The Jenners would regroup seconds later to repeat the tactic."
- TRO:3039

Appreciate the video though. I take it the similarity to the Combine crest was not accidental? ;P

Sounds like a variation of the "horde tactics" of your Mercer Ravannion...

"The myth of the Blackjack's inferiority received a blow in 3022, however, when the infamous Kurita Captain Mercer Ravannion attempted to use his 'horde' tactics against an under-strength Davion garrison on the ice world of Xhosha VII. Ravannion theorized that 'Mech warfare could be carried out by swarms of ultra-light Stingers and Wasps to attack and overwhelm the heavier but numerically inferior defending 'Mechs. Ravannion's attempts to prove his theories were uniformly disastrous, but his confidence in them was unshakeable. The tiny garrison on Xhosha would suffer for his obsession.

The Xhosha defense unit consisted of two companies of Draconis March Militia, equipped mostly with Locusts and Blackjacks. When hordes of Stingers and Wasps burst from DropShips in what Ravannion hoped was an irresistible wave, they caught the Militia by surprise. Freezing temperatures affected the performance of 'Mech equipment on both sides, particularly the defenders' Locusts.

In the end, Cadet Captain Michael Ubodo's 'outmoded' and 'inferior' but heavier Blackjacks took the brunt of the Kurita attack on the icy Plain of Swords. The fighting was fierce. Driven by fanaticism, Ravannion threw his 'Mechs into battle without regard for men or material.

Ubodo, a recent NAIS Training Cadre graduate breveted to command of the Xhosha garrison, was beset on all sides by the light, swift Kurita 'Mechs. Remaining calm, he utilized what little terrain existed on the windswept plain, and met each Kurita thrust with a counterthrust from his outnumbered Blackjacks, then personally led the counter-attack that broke the back of Ravannion's assault.

Ravannion withdrew his forces in disorder, and returned home "to further refine" his theories. He was killed a year later in a fight with McKinnon's Raiders on Fallon II." - TRO:3025R, pg.46

... and it can be beaten easily enough in the same manner, provided the MechWarrior under attack is up-to-snuff.

Kyone Akashi, on 27 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

I did not even consider Ghost Heat. Makes me wonder if they'll scale it back for the Clan machines (perhaps explaining it with their superior technology), or if it means that these 'Mechs won't be quite as scary as I imagine them because their pilots are essentially forced to chainfire their lasers.

It might even (and will most likely) shift from one to the other (and possibly back again) as the cat-and-mouse game between players "min-maxing" and PGI attempting to "balance" Clan-made gear ensues.

[Kyone Akashi]

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

The seeming discrepency would be resolved by considering the LOS of 'Mech A's Beagle scan passing through the effect radius to count as being "within" the effect radius - similar to what is actually the case under the standard rules found in TotWar.
"An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." - Total Warfare, pg. 134

But the rules for ECM in Total War have no effect on standard detection whatsoever. As per the very same page, the only systems affected are: Active Probe, Artemis, Narc, C3/C3i.

I think that the discrepancy is rather to be explained by double-blind simply using alternate rules for ECM:

"In a double-blind game, specific rules contradict how equipment (such as the range of ECM and probes) and some situations (determining LOS) are used in standard and advanced-rules game play. These changes enhance the 'fog of war' aspects of a double-blind game and increase everyone's enjoyment of this more realistic game play. Any rules in this section are only for use in double-blind games and should never be used in regular games."
- TacOps p.220

In other words, it doesn't matter what Total War says. You cannot combine these two different rules for ECM, because they are intended to be used for two different game styles and are incompatible with each other. In Total War, ECM does not affect detection because the rules for sensors do not apply, and in TacOps, ECM does not affect detection because ECM only jams detection within its own bubble:

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target and do not have a radius of effect, and so are taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius."
- TacOps p.223

The example seems to suggest the contrary, but as per page 223 is in violation of the book's own rules.
Turns out this has also been asked and answered on the official Battletech forums:

"In order for ECM to have an effect in Doubleblind rules, the affected unit must be within the ECM's bubble. It is not sufficient for an ECM bubble to be in line of sight."
- BT Forums : Ask the Writers

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

If only we wern't destined to end up on opposing sides of the war for control of the Inner Sphere!
How quickly our differences, across the Sphere, would vanish if we were facing an threat from outside known space.
Until then, however... qué será, será.

I was just thinking the same thing until I read that last sentence.
But until then, rest assured that, unless you provide reason to the contrary, I shall treat you like a honorable warrior after besting you on the battlefield. *pats katana*

Strum Wealh, on 27 December 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

It might even (and will most likely) shift from one to the other (and possibly back again) as the cat-and-mouse game between players "min-maxing" and PGI attempting to "balance" Clan-made gear ensues.

Indeed. There will be fun times ahead.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 28 December 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Kyone Akashi, on 28 December 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

But the rules for ECM in Total War have no effect on standard detection whatsoever. As per the very same page, the only systems affected are: Active Probe, Artemis, Narc, C3/C3i.

I think that the discrepancy is rather to be explained by double-blind simply using alternate rules for ECM:

"In a double-blind game, specific rules contradict how equipment (such as the range of ECM and probes) and some situations (determining LOS) are used in standard and advanced-rules game play. These changes enhance the 'fog of war' aspects of a double-blind game and increase everyone's enjoyment of this more realistic game play. Any rules in this section are only for use in double-blind games and should never be used in regular games."
- TacOps p.220

In other words, it doesn't matter what Total War says. You cannot combine these two different rules for ECM, because they are intended to be used for two different game styles and are incompatible with each other. In Total War, ECM does not affect detection because the rules for sensors do not apply, and in TacOps, ECM does not affect detection because ECM only jams detection within its own bubble:

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems only affect the target and do not have a radius of effect, and so are taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment). LOS does not affect this radius."
- TacOps p.223

The example seems to suggest the contrary, but as per page 223 is in violation of the book's own rules.
Turns out this has also been asked and answered on the official Battletech forums:

"In order for ECM to have an effect in Doubleblind rules, the affected unit must be within the ECM's bubble. It is not sufficient for an ECM bubble to be in line of sight."
- BT Forums : Ask the Writers

However, it seems that PGI has apparently followed the example given in TacOps rather than the letter of the rules given in the same... which, as it happens, also mirrors the description of its use given in the novels Main Event by James D. Long and Initiation to War, by Robert N. Charrette.

Quote

"Command One, this is Pursuit Two. Two inbound blips on an intersect course. Either they've got damn fast 'Mechs or a pair of hovercraft."
"Confirmed, Pursuit Two. Switch to Guardian." Rose watched the long-range scanner become suddenly cloudy as Ajax activated the Guardian electronic countermeasure suite. The ECM system was designed to provide a cloud of electromagnetic disturbance that would make targeting the mercenaries virtually impossible until the Clans got to close range. It was the perfect counter to the Clans' longer ranges. As long as the enemy didn't have a line of sight, they would have a difficult time tracking the Thorns inside the cloud. Of course, the cloud itself was very easy to spot.
Under the umbrella of the Guardian the Black Thorns picked up the pace. Rose switched to the short-range scanner because the long-range version was effectively blind while the Guardian was engaged.

Quote

The far shore would be little better than a practice firing range for the Pillager. Worse, any Vigilante 'Mech on the far bank would likely be outside the Raven's protective screen. If the Raven were over there, the reciprocal would apply to anyone remaining on the Hinchuan bank.
"If Trahn can cross somewhere down the canal, I could jump over anywhere," JJ suggested. "Her Guardian suite will give us the best cover we can get over there and we'll be in flanking position."
"The canal itself is better cover," Sam said.
"It isn't very deep," Kelly pointed out. It was three to four meters mostly, deep enough for the barges that traversed it, but barely more than waist deep to the light 'Mechs. "It's not enough for a submerged approach."
"We don't need it to be," Sam stated. "The banks give us another couple of meters. The Commandos can crouch, and moving along the near embankment, we won't be seen. Better still we might be able to stay within reach of Trahn's Guardian suite.

(The relevant excerpts are viewable here and here.)

Granted, appealing to the novels is of a lower tier of authority than the rulebooks, but both quotations show the same situation as the example situation in TacOps - using a Guardian suite to interfere with (to the point of effectively outright-preventing - more clearly in the case of the Thorns vs that of the Vigilantes) long-range detection and targeting by the opposing force.
And it seems to be these examples (together with the BT gameplay rules) upon which, for better or worse, PGI has based their implementation of Guardian - not fully within the as-published gameplay rules of BattleTech, true, but not wholly without precedent with regard to in-universe representation or functionality either.

It does also raise the question of what PGI will do and what precedents they will use with regard to the Targeting Computer mounted on such 'Mechs as the Masakari Prime and Puma Prime, both in terms of in-match functionality (especially with the 'Mechs no longer having non-instantaneous convergence) and modification/customization practices (as TCs' weights and crits canonically varied as a function of the total tonnage of applicable weapon systems were mounted on the 'Mech).
(Which, as it happens, reminds me of one particular math-and-technobabble post of which I am particularly proud... )

Kyone Akashi, on 28 December 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

I was just thinking the same thing until I read that last sentence.
But until then, rest assured that, unless you provide reason to the contrary, I shall treat you like a honorable warrior after besting you on the battlefield. *pats katana*

Oh - is that a standard katana, or a vibroblade model?
*rests my palm atop the pommel of my épée de combat, my fencer's sense piqued...

Anywhoo, I suspect we both know that your response would have been had I inquired about your turning your back on the Combine (e.g. that such a suggestion would not have elicited an affirmative response) - and that I would have given a similar answer with regard to likewise turning my back on the Suns.
I take it you're not going to tell me that I am mistaken in that regard?

Though, knowing about the particular part of the Dictum Honorium (where, recall, ISN News reported on the lampooning thereof some time ago) that deals with what to do with bested foes... well, I hope you won't fault me too much for preferring to keep my major organs (including, and especially, the ole' chunk 'o grey & white matter) both attached and fully functional.

That being said, we of the Federation's armed forces tend to be generally more forgiving of our bested foes (especially those who have fought with valor and honor - as I expect you will, and which I fully intend to reciprocate; I look forward to the encounter(s) between your Jenner(s)(?) and my Centurion(s) )... thus, I expect that it would be to the greater benefit of all parties to reverse who bests whom relative to the scenario you've presented.

Kyone Akashi, on 28 December 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Indeed. There will be fun times ahead

Indeed.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 28 December 2013 - 06:48 PM.