20517 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

added this re-design of the classic Nova omnimech to the fanart section.

The Nova is tied with the summoner as my favorite Clan mechs, and part of i's iconic look is the odd hip/shoulder combo. Since all other such combos got a waist turret, it is safe to assume the Nova would too. I left the arms off for now to give a good view of the modified hip design.

Thoughts?

[Odanan]

Amazing Nova, Bishop. That's one of my prefered mechs in MW2.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 01 November 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Amazing Nova, Bishop. That's one of my prefered mechs in MW2.

i fell in love with it in MW3. I'd load it up with 10 standard MediuM Laser, on chain fire, and it was pretty much nonstop laser fire with minimal heat issues, and amputate the leg off anything in no time.

[FireSlade]

I like it but the only Nova that feels like a Nova to me is the one without torso twisting. It was a powerful medium sized mech with 12 energy hardpoints and JJs, so it needed flaws. One of them is that you could not bring all 12 weapons to bare when you performed a circle of death but it also had increased arm mobility to make up for that. PGI already has the mechanic in game to only move the arms when you look all the way to the left/right when the torso hits the stop. I would still love the Nova without torso twist but too many of the "new" people who do not know Battletech and would cry about the Nova being DOA. Sigh..... Oh well guess I will just have to accept it.

[Bishop Steiner]

FireSlade, on 01 November 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

I like it but the only Nova that feels like a Nova to me is the one without torso twisting. It was a powerful medium sized mech with 12 energy hardpoints and JJs, so it needed flaws. One of them is that you could not bring all 12 weapons to bare when you performed a circle of death but it also had increased arm mobility to make up for that. PGI already has the mechanic in game to only move the arms when you look all the way to the left/right when the torso hits the stop. I would still love the Nova without torso twist but too many of the "new" people who do not know Battletech and would cry about the Nova being DOA. Sigh..... Oh well guess I will just have to accept it.

arm mobility which made no sense in light of the actual arm design?

And not much of a flaw since it could scarcely afford to actually use all 12 lasers at once.

[FireSlade]

MW3's arm mobility was a bit off but yeah I could easily see a pivoting joint right outside of the leg to allow for the arms to swing out some. They already do it for hip joints since you cannot walk just having it swing back and forth. It would have to twist some too to account for the hip swinging forward.

[Odanan]

Colddawg, on 01 November 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

Can we get an updated listed of released and announced by weight/weight class and, if it's not too much work, faction? There's always room to speculate, but whether or not it'll actually happen before the clans is another question. No one at PGI ever said they were releasing equal amounts of each 'Mech class.

Most of this information is in the OP.

[Colddawg]

Odanan, on 03 November 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Most of this information is in the OP.

PFFT. Who reads the original post anymore!?

Nice Nova Bishop..

[Odanan]

Colddawg, on 03 November 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

PFFT. Who reads the original post anymore!?

Apparently, no one.

[FireSlade]

Bishop you got me thinking about the nova and how OP that it will be. I decided to make a little experiment using Smurfy and a TBT-5J to see what I could come up with a stock Nova with MWOs rules. Since we do not know how PGI is going to run the numbers I am just going to assume TT numbers for now. So doing all that I came up with this beast. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ac40352ec3ebb5 Everything is stock except for the 18 DHS instead of the 14 DHS and that I used AMS ammo as CERML place holders. Also note that I did not account for ghost heat since I am too lazy to do the math and splitting the 12 into 6 spread .5 sec apart negates it anyways.

• Not quite sure of the range but going to say around 400 meters for the optimum range.
  
• Alpha of 84 damage
  
• Alpha heat of 60
  
• Heat capacity 61.2 (67.32 with heat capacity skill and 73.44 with 2x)
  
• You have to wait 20 seconds between alphas
  
• Using just alphas you get a DPS 4.2-4.9

Say hello to the new nightmare mech that can travel 86kph and out alpha an Atlas. I really, really, hope that PGI really thinks out the Clans first before they add them.

Edited by FireSlade, 03 November 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Colddawg, on 03 November 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

PFFT. Who reads the original post anymore!?

Nice Nova Bishop..

it's an amputee.

[SgtMagor]

an 84 alpha from a 50ton mech is something to think about, time to sell off all my mechs, they can't possibly compete with that kind of firepower

[Strum Wealh]

FireSlade, on 03 November 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Bishop you got me thinking about the nova and how OP that it will be. I decided to make a little experiment using Smurfy and a TBT-5J to see what I could come up with a stock Nova with MWOs rules. Since we do not know how PGI is going to run the numbers I am just going to assume TT numbers for now. So doing all that I came up with this beast. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ac40352ec3ebb5 Everything is stock except for the 18 DHS instead of the 14 DHS and that I used AMS ammo as CERML place holders. Also note that I did not account for ghost heat since I am too lazy to do the math and splitting the 12 into 6 spread .5 sec apart negates it anyways.

• Not quite sure of the range but going to say around 400 meters for the optimum range.
  
• Alpha of 84 damage
  
• Alpha heat of 60
  
• Heat capacity 61.2 (67.32 with heat capacity skill and 73.44 with 2x)
  
• You have to wait 20 seconds between alphas
  
• Using just alphas you get a DPS 4.2-4.9

Say hello to the new nightmare mech that can travel 86kph and out alpha an Atlas. I really, really, hope that PGI really thinks out the Clans first before they add them.

If we want the data for the stock Prime config, it can be worked out manually from the information found here.

Base Engine: 250 XL

• Engine rating limits: 190 (from (250/1.3)) to 325 (from 250*1.3)
  
• Speed (w/o Speed Tweak): ~62 kph (from (16.2 * (190/50))) to ~105 kph (from (16.2 * (325/50)))
  
• Speed (w/ Speed Tweak): ~68 kph (from 62 * 1.10) to ~116 kph (from 105 * 1.10)

HS Complement: 18 DHS

• Heat capacity: 61.2 (from (30 + (10*2) + (8*1.4)))
  
• cooling capability: 3.12 heat/second (from ((10*0.2) + (8*0.14)))

Weapon Complement: x12 Clan ER Medium Lasers

• optimal range: 450 meters (from TT)
  
• maximum range: 900 meters (optimum range * 2)
  
• damage per salvo per weapon: 7 units (from TT)
  
• Damage per alpha strike: 84 units (from 12*7)
  
• heat per salvo per weapon: 5 units (from TT)
  
• Ghost Heat limit: 6 (same as standard Medium Laser)
  
• heat scale multiplier: 1.00 (same as standard Medium Laser)
  
• total heat from alpha strike: 210 units (from (5*12)+((6)(5*1*5)))

Basically, the Black Hawk could do a lot of damage from short-to-medium range, and can theoretically exceed many currently-possible builds (especially those in the same weight class) out to what might be considered long range (it would retain a 42-point alpha strike out to 675 meters), but even a single alpha strike would likely destroy the 'Mech via "Ghost Heat".

And if you think the stock Black Hawk is bad, you should see the Daishi I came up with (see here and here) for another discussion...

Strum Wealh, on 02 November 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Another thing to consider is how far along the path of "leave out X 'Mech/config" one would really want to go.

I opened up RemLab and set up the base Daishi.
Then, I made note of the Prime configuration's armaments: one ballistic in each arm (UAC/5s, with 2 tons of ammo), 4 energy in each arm (x2 ERLL, x2 MPL), and a missile hardpoint in the Left Torso (LRM-10, with 1 ton of ammo).

Here is what I was able to fit, in 50.5 tons of pod space and while not even filling the starting hardpoints:

• x2 Clan UAC/20s (one in each arm) w/ 8 tons of ammo
  
• x4 ER Medium Lasers (2 per arm)
  
• x1 ALRM-15 (in the Left Torso) w/ 4 tons of ammo
  
• 3 extra DHS (for a total of 18 DHS)

All of that can be fit onto the Daishi (filling all criticals and still having 3 tons free) without changing the base configuration at all (e.g. Engine, Structure, Armor, etc)... and it has four fewer weapons than what it started with, near-maximum armor (the same amount as a stock Atlas), and has the speed of a stock (non-hero) Atlas.

Even without firing the UACs in Ultra Mode & even if the ERMLs are pushed down to the same damage as IS Medium Lasers (5 units of damage per salvo), one is looking at at least 60 pts of pinpoint damage per salvo at short-to-medium range.
If the UACs don't jam & ERMLs retain their damage output (7 units of damage per salvo), and one throws in the missile launcher for good measure... well, it's little wonder that the thing is called "great death"!

That this can be done with the primary configuration, even with the base equipment locked-down, begs the question: should the Daishi ever be introduced to MWO, or should it be left out entirely lest it (probably) break the game?

Strum Wealh, on 02 November 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

The heat output from a single shell is 7, assuming PGI stays with the canonical heat output.
Ghost Heat from the standard AC/20 is +11.52

Double-tapping both UACs simultaneously would be 7 + 7 + ~12(GH) + 7 + 7 + ~12(GH) = ~52 units of heat.
Firing both UACs without double-tapping (which is what I was talking about) would be half of that, or ~26 units of heat.
Clan ERMLs generate 5 units of heat apiece (per TT), so four of them (assuming they share the standard ML's GH limit of 6) would together generate 20 units of heat.

With 18 DHS (assuming the same HS scheme remains in place), it could vent 3.12 heat/second.
With 18 DHS, the heat scale - that is, the heat threshold - would be 30 + (10*2) + (8*1.4) = 61.2 units of heat
(source on how HS & heat scale work)

Heat-wise, such a Daishi as I have described would be quite capable of handling the heat from a single salvo of double-tapped twin UAC/20s or a single salvo of single-tapped twin UAC/20s plus a quartet of ERMLs (again, with the second being what I was talking about) on a neutral or even slightly warm map.

Very few 'Mechs outside of the fastest of the Lights and the Cicada (which, contrary to popular belief, is in fact a Medium ) are likely to evade the first two shells (which will land in the same general spot), and there is a good chance on most 'Mechs that the quartet of laser beams would mostly expend themselves against the same general area.
Alternatively, double-tapping the UACs means a second front-loaded 40 units of damage going toward the target, with a fair chance of hitting the same general area as the first set.

Moreover, that spare 3 tons would be enough to get it up to a 340 XL if the Engine isn't locked - enough to boost its speed from 48.6 kph to 55.1 kph (or 60.6 kph if the 10% bonus from Speed Tweak is included), in addition to boosting its torso twist speed.

Granted, it's not as ridiculously powerful as it would be without Ghost Heat and with all of the DHS being "true-dubs", but it is far beyond what the vast majority of 'Mechs currently in-game can do (though, the x6 PPC/ER-PPC/LL/ERLL/LPL Stalkers come close).

[Wieland]

FireSlade, on 03 November 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I really, really, hope that PGI really thinks out the Clans first before they add them.

They have set the timer back to 3048. No invasion till 2015.

[John MatriX82]

Wieland, on 03 November 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

They have set the timer back to 3048. No invasion till 2015.

We're designing omnimechs. Hmm maybe we'll have some slight issues balancing them.. let's push them back in the future so everyone is happy

On a twit https://twitter.com/bryanekman Eckman said "it's just a fun project". We'll see

[FireSlade]

Strum Wealh, on 03 November 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

If we want the data for the stock Prime config, it can be worked out manually from the information found here.

Base Engine: 250 XL

• Engine rating limits: 190 (from (250/1.3)) to 325 (from 250*1.3)
  
• Speed (w/o Speed Tweak): ~62 kph (from (16.2 * (190/50))) to ~105 kph (from (16.2 * (325/50)))
  
• Speed (w/ Speed Tweak): ~68 kph (from 62 * 1.10) to ~116 kph (from 105 * 1.10)

HS Complement: 18 DHS

• Heat capacity: 61.2 (from (30 + (10*2) + (8*1.4)))
  
• cooling capability: 3.12 heat/second (from ((10*0.2) + (8*0.14)))

Weapon Complement: x12 Clan ER Medium Lasers

• optimal range: 450 meters (from TT)
  
• maximum range: 900 meters (optimum range * 2)
  
• damage per salvo per weapon: 7 units (from TT)
  
• Damage per alpha strike: 84 units (from 12*7)
  
• heat per salvo per weapon: 5 units (from TT)
  
• Ghost Heat limit: 6 (same as standard Medium Laser)
  
• heat scale multiplier: 1.00 (same as standard Medium Laser)
  
• total heat from alpha strike: 210 units (from (5*12)+((6)(5*1*5)))

Basically, the Black Hawk could do a lot of damage from short-to-medium range, and can theoretically exceed many currently-possible builds (especially those in the same weight class) out to what might be considered long range (it would retain a 42-point alpha strike out to 675 meters), but even a single alpha strike would likely destroy the 'Mech via "Ghost Heat".


And if you think the stock Black Hawk is bad, you should see the Daishi I came up with (see here and here) for another discussion...

Thanks to some hasty decisions and little forward thinking, PGI basically screwed themselves and the Clans. Although as Wieland pointed out they have plenty of time to fix it........ (Dammit PGI!)

[Strum Wealh]

FireSlade, on 03 November 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Thanks to some hasty decisions and little forward thinking, PGI basically screwed themselves and the Clans. Although as Wieland pointed out they have plenty of time to fix it........ (Dammit PGI!)

Though, it should be noted that the analyses of both 'Mechs (the Black Hawk moreso than the Daishi) include a number of assumptions which may ultimately prove to be less accurate than anticipated.

Which (if any) ultimately prove to be correct, and whether each case ultimately proves to be for better or for worse, remains to be seen...

[Odanan]

John MatriX82, on 03 November 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

We're designing omnimechs. Hmm maybe we'll have some slight issues balancing them.. let's push them back in the future so everyone is happy

On a twit https://twitter.com/bryanekman Eckman said "it's just a fun project". We'll see

Hopefully they will do some "Clan Invasion" event.

[John MatriX82]

Odanan, on 03 November 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Hopefully they will do some "Clan Invasion" event.

The problem is usually the same.. when? As it stays it's the next year

[Bishop Steiner]

FireSlade, on 03 November 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Thanks to some hasty decisions and little forward thinking, PGI basically screwed themselves and the Clans. Although as Wieland pointed out they have plenty of time to fix it........ (Dammit PGI!)

funnily enough, most of the "hasty decisions" that have been balance nightmares IMO have come when PGI did finally cave and listen to the serial QQers on the forums.