97 replies to this topic

[Blue Boutique]

Yes, we all want that space mission from MechWarrior 2 Mercenaries where you had to use ballistics or you blow up from firing a few medium pulse laser shots.

[Piney II]

I really like this map. It looks good and plays well - no 5 minute hikes up the road to engage. The sounds add to the immersion.

[Artgathan]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 17 December 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

This game was originally billed as a mechwarrior SIMULATOR. Not Mechassault 2013.

Neither, actually. The game is being sold as a "thinking man's shooter."

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

On the heat sinks in a vacumm. Heat Sinks work like radiators on a PC. Heat is tranfered to the radiators. In space which is extreamly cold heat would be rapidly removed from the radiator due to this effect. It's why heat sinks work better in a freezing environmentvs a hot environment. A vacuum creates cold, that helps cooling.

Heat Sinks in BT are actually Heat Pumps (not true Heat Sinks). A Vacuum doesn't "create cold", it creates the absence of heat (which may seem like the same thing, but they're not). Consider that even if you were to float around in outer space it would take you a few minutes to freeze to death because there's nothing around you to transfer your body's heat to.

Edited by Artgathan, 18 December 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Because I can. And I like talking about this stuff.

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

First, the fact that this map has an almost non existant atmosphere. This is highlighted by the fact that sounds are muffled by the lack of said atmosphere. Sound needs molucules to bounce off of to produce sounds. With such a extreemly thin atmosphere our laser and PPC weapons should have extended ranges. With no atmosphere for the energy to blead off into or be distorted, energy weapons will go on until gravity forces the energy into the ground. Also with a thin atmosphere heat would dissipate at a faster rate since an atmosphere holds in heat.

No. In space, heat retention is actually a very big problem. Heat does not dissipate easily into a vacuum, as there is no material for heat to transfer to. If nothing else, mechs should retain heat far more in a vacuum than in an atmosphere.

Quote

Secondly the temperature is all wrong. This looks like a moon, not a planet.

The distinction between moon and planet depends on a lot of factors, but ultimately is irrelevant for temperature concerns.

Quote

Since this is a HyperPulse Generator facility this being a moon makes more sense. So if this is a moon on a habitable planet the temp they provide is very wrong. If this facility is on the sun side of the moon temps would be around 100˚C and on the dark side -150˚C. The -10˚C temp they say makes no sense.

You're assuming this moon/planet orbits a sun-like star. That may not be the case.

Quote

Considering the thin atmosphere, there is nothing to hold in heat. The temps should be drastically reduced or increased. There are other maps with far colder temps with atmospheres helping that out. Same can be said about the hotter maps.

Space is weird like that. Temperature depends on a lot of factors, and not just atmosphere. Though I would tend to agree that -10C does seem to be strange.

Quote

Finally there is the gravity. Moons with little to no atmosphere are smaller moons. With not enough gravitational hold to keep an atmosphere.

You are thinking of earth's moon. There is nothing stopping the universe from having earth-sized planets with no atmosphere.

Quote

Our moon’s gravity is 1/6 that of Earths gravity. As such our mechs would fall slower and have almost no damage associated with falling.

Again, there is nothing that suggests this moon is like earth's moon. I would extrapolate that it's actually a more dense (probably larger) body than earth (thus the higher gravity) that is in orbit around a larger gas giant (thus calling it a 'moon').

Quote

Also ballistic weapons ranges should be increased to such a degree that they most likely would be able to reach escape velocity from a straight line.

True for real life; poor game mechanic.

Quote

Also our mechs speed should also see a increase. With less gravity pushing down on our mechs we should be able to go faster than in an environment with a increased gravity.

Not really. You still have the friction of extra weight (higher gravity) on the surface. So the zero atmosphere drag is canceled out by the heavier chassis.

[Corbon Zackery]

They opted to not follow the physics due to graphic constraints There's more than one sun in the system so no night cycle.

Also the Sun is young still close to being a white star so Temps are different. Its not a yellow star orbiting the planet.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The moon the map is on is rich in ore and is incredibly dense hence the gravity

As for temp...harder to figure out. We will say that cooling happens without atmosphere because of solar radiation stripping heat away from the mech...yea..that's it...that's the ticket...yea.

[SmurfOff]

Taking the physics out of the discussion, the map is still a bad map.

It has the texture variety of Terra Therma (little to none), rough areas to get stuck in, and horrible flow of battle. I understand that they are trying to force us into "3 dimensional" combat, but these are ground forces fighting each other. Also, getting tired of the arena style layouts of maps (limited ingress/egress points).

The most disappointing part of this map is this is a "professional" map. I would rate it somewhere at a community developed quake 2 map, and a mediocre one at that. Please, release a map development kit so we can rescue the game from monochrome map designs.

Also, remove the tagline "a thinking mans shooter" if you are going to force everyone into a confined space, short range combat situation.

[Odins Fist]

Surface gravity, the force that holds down an atmosphere, differs significantly among the planets. For example, the large gravitational force of the giant planet Jupiter is able to retain light gases such as hydrogen and helium that escape from objects with lower gravity. Secondly, the distance from the sun determines the energy available to heat atmospheric gas to the point where its molecules' thermal motion exceed the planet's escape velocity, the speed at which gas molecules overcome a planet's gravitational grasp. Thus, the distant and cold Titan, Triton, and Pluto are able to retain their atmospheres despite relatively low gravities.
.................................................................................................................................................................................................

It would seem that the higher the gravity, the greater the chance of some sort of atmosphere as opposed to a vacum around the planet. What sort of atmosphere is debatable, but outgassing from a planet before the planet core stops moving, would create some sort of particulate in the air filled will molecules that could combine to create something like the above examples.

Distance from a sun can be a huge factor as well, in our solar system planets with lower gravity, BUT farther from the sun retain their atmosphere, even moons like Titan..

Planet or Moon it doesn't matter, but with all that said we don't have enough info on this new Planet/Moon to know.
BUT... I would put my money on a Higher Gravity Planet/Moon having at least a thin atmosphere.
The -10 c temp has me wondering, and would seem a bit wonky for daytime temps if there was no atmosphere at all, but we don't have enough to go on, but it does tell us what Star Type is in the solar system of this Planet/Moon.
Star Type (Recharge Time): F4V, yellow-white (175 Hours)
http://en.wikipedia....ry:F-type_stars
http://en.wikipedia....n-sequence_star

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lambda_Arae

Simple deduction from available information....

Edited by Odins Fist, 18 December 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[NRP]

OMG, I guess haters are gonna hate, no matter what.

[Mawai]

Bloodyscalphunter, on 17 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

When I saw this map i was excited, "finally a map in space". But once I played it I was very disappointed in the environments physics. So lets figure out where they went wrong.[/color]

]First, the fact that this map has an almost non existant atmosphere. This is highlighted by the fact that sounds are muffled by the lack of said atmosphere. Sound needs molucules to bounce off of to produce sounds. With such a extreemly thin atmosphere our laser and PPC weapons should have extended ranges. With no atmosphere for the energy to blead off into or be distorted, energy weapons will go on until gravity forces the energy into the ground. Also with a thin atmosphere heat would dissipate at a faster rate since an atmosphere holds in heat.[/color]

Secondly the temperature is all wrong. This looks like a moon, not a planet. Since this is a HyperPulse Generator facility this being a moon makes more sense. So if this is a moon on a habitable planet the temp they provide is very wrong. If this facility is on the sun side of the moon temps would be around 100˚C and on the dark side -150˚C. The -10˚C temp they say makes no sense. Considering the thin atmosphere, there is nothing to hold in heat. The temps should be drastically reduced or increased. There are other maps with far colder temps with atmospheres helping that out. Same can be said about the hotter maps.[/color]

Finally there is the gravity. Moons with little to no atmosphere are smaller moons. With not enough gravitational hold to keep an atmosphere. Our moon’s gravity is 1/6 that of Earths gravity. As such our mechs would fall slower and have almost no damage associated with falling. Also ballistic weapons ranges should be increased to such a degree that they most likely would be able to reach escape velocity from a straight line. Also our mechs speed should also see a increase. With less gravity pushing down on our mechs we should be able to go faster than in an environment with a increased gravity.[/color]

All in all the physics on this map make no sense with what we see. Hopefully PGI will change some of this to make it a little more realistic.[/color]

Just a few comments ...

1) Range limits in MWO and Battletech are wrong to start with. Ballistics that only have a 270m effective range make no sense. Lasers and energy weapons with effective ranges of a few hundred meters also don't make much sense. Beam attentuation is a factor of atmospheric interaction and beam focus. If a beam can be equally effective from zero to 450m then both focus and attentuation losses are small ... so the range limitation has nothing to do with physics but with the game so there is no reason to expect them to operate differently in a vacuum environment.

2) Gravity will never force the energy into the ground unless you are playing on the surface of a black hole ... sorry.

3) Heat conduction and convection are way way more effective cooling mechanisms that radiation. In a vacuum, all you have is radiation ... cooling of the mech should be slower in a vacuum. Why do you think thermos bottles are made with a vacuum layer? It is one of the best ways to insulate something in a terrestrial environment.

4) Surface temperature will depend on atmosphere, ambient heat sources (i.e is the generator putting out heat) and where the terminator is relative to the facility. However, if there isn't any significant atmosphere then the "temperature" really doesn't have much effect on mech cooling one way or another. If you want some sort of hand waving physics answer you could say that the combined effects of the environment on mech cooling are equivalent to a terrestrial environment at -10C. This combines the reduced atmosphere which prevents convective losses and atmospheric conductive losses combined with perhaps increased conductive losses through the feet. Anyway ... done with hand wavy physics for now.

5) Well ... Mars doesn't have much of an atmosphere.

http://en.wikipedia....osphere_of_Mars

Pressure there is about 0.6% of Earths pressure at sea level ... if you think sounds would carry well under those circumstances then I think you would be mistaken. Gravity on Mars is about 40% of Earth's. Keep in mind that atmosphere and gravity are not correlated. Venus has gravity slightly less than Earths and an atmospheric pressure that is 90x the Earth surface pressure.


In summary, there are a wide variety of surface conditions possible on planetary/moon type objects ... this is science fiction after all ...

MWO uses Battletech physics which has so many holes in it you could drive a drop ship through it ... however, many of your specific objections don't make any sense even from a real life physics perspective.

In the end, luckily, this is a game so none of it really matters!

Edited by Mawai, 18 December 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Mawai]

Sug, on 17 December 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Yeah I was expecting to jump further and higher. Or be killed instantly when my cockpit gets breached.




The heat does feel kinda off, maybe we're further from the closest star than our moon is so it's colder in the light. Though if there was little or no atmosphere our heatsinks wouldn't work at all.

Wow really!!?? ... are you saying you would not wear a space suit when fighting in a zero atmosphere environment ... Darwinism at work in the Inner Sphere I guess

As for heat, my guess was increased conductive losses through the feet combined with reduced conductive/convective losses to atmosphere plus whatever radiative losses get to an effective environmental temperature of -10C for net cooling rate. However, what really happened was probably ..

Dev1: What temperature?
Dev2: I don't know ... cold?
Dev1: Sure sounds good but we already have a really cold map ... and this place has no atmosphere so its not as cold maybe.
Dev2: Hmmm ... sounds ok ... how about -10C then? Sound about right?
Dev1: Ok -10C is good, cooling is a little better but not enough to break anything.
Dev2: I'll set the value in the parameter file and post it after the designer approves it ... hopefully sometime this week.

[DONTOR]

The sound is amazng the map is also very thematic. Easily my favorite map so far.

[Sug]

Mawai, on 18 December 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

my guess

And there's the difference between our statements.

[Mawai]

Sug, on 18 December 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

And there's the difference between our statements.

"The heat does feel kinda off, maybe we're further from the closest star than our moon is so it's colder in the light. Though if there was little or no atmosphere our heatsinks wouldn't work at all"

How is that statement any less of a guess than mine? "The heat feels kinda off, maybe ..."

There are many pseudo-physics explanations for why a temperature of -10C was assigned. For all we know it is just night time on a planet with an extremely fast axial rotation and strong primary.

From a game perspective, the -10C was assigned to give a specific heat dissipation rate to in-game mech heat sinks when playing on this map. End of story. That is all the facts that are publicly known. Any other justification for WHY a value of -10C was assigned is a guess no matter who makes the suggestion.

[Almond Brown]

Sug, on 17 December 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

That's no moon....

Yup, it is missing an R. Oh you meant the Map and not the OP. j/k

It is a Game Map, not some school science project ffs.

[Sug]

Mawai, on 18 December 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

How is that statement any less of a guess than mine? "The heat feels kinda off, maybe ..."

"maybe we're further from the closest star than our moon so it's colder in the light."

http://lmgtfy.com/

If we're further away from the "sun" then the HPG moon would receive less heat. That would explain why we're clearly on the light side of whatever HPG is yet it's cold.


"Though if there was little or no atmosphere our heatsinks wouldn't work at all."

http://lmgtfy.com/

Scroll up and read some other posts for explanations of why they wouldn't work.

Edited by Sug, 18 December 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Burke IV]

I have to admit i have only played it once. My first impression was... this has a whiff of hawken about it. This game should nto try to compete with hawken, it doesnt have to. This is mechwarrior. Otherwise it seems fun, if rather dark.

[Deathlike]

I like the map, that it seems like a great brawling map and it looks cool. These other details I feel are just discussion points of randomness and frankly I shrug when it is brought up.

The problem though is that map design itself could be better. There is seemingly less design depth when the map is created. The only map that at least made things interesting was Crimson Strait with the upper and lower levels, but I'm resigned to seeing a lot of mediocrity here.

[Sug]

Sug, on 17 December 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

That's no moon....

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

It is a Game Map, not some school science project ffs.

Edit: 100,000 cbills for whoever can tell me how to embed a youtube video in the forums like I've been doing for 2 years but all of a sudden can't.

Edited by Sug, 18 December 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[scgt1]

apparently you don't know how this game is built. The weapon ranges are configured per mech not via maps. If they were to incorporate the extended range then it would be that way at all maps. Same thing with top speeds. If your going to ***** about something have your facts and the knowledge of how things are designed first or you sound like an *****.

Oh yea and I wouldn't know about the map. Played for about 3 hours last night and it never hit. :-( Neither did Alpine or a Skirmish mode. Sigh.... I can't wait for more maps and modes it will take just that much longer to load up something. They should have wrote the whole system like COD or something. Where maps can be voted on and you connect to different servers. That way we would have (what we were told WAY back in closed beta for that matter I think the very first video advertising the game stated it also) that we could configure our mechs based on where we were going to drop. It's been two years and that knowledge isn't here yet. I would doubt they even get it in with CW. One of those promises that well you get the picture.

Edited by scgt1, 18 December 2013 - 11:14 AM.