27 replies to this topic

[Khulod]

Hi all,

I've been playing a bit, got my own Jagermech-DD which I am having some fun with, but after all the ballistics I wanted to experiment with something new and I am saving for a new mech to do just that. After playing a good while one of the things that I found interesting was missile boats picking at me from a long distance. Since I myself need to get within half a klom this was usually quite annoying and, when supported by their team, these missile boats could do some hefty damage to my team. So what do I want to do? Build a missile boat of my own, of course!

But here it gets a bit hairy, I am not that experienced in building mechs so before I spend a few mil wrongly, I wanted to enlist the help of the kind people here.

The mech my eye has fallen on initially is the STK-3H for it's dual 20 tubes. Using Artemis and TAG I should be able to pierce ECM in direct line of sight and go for standard artillery striking from behind cover on all other targets. One of the things I hated on my Jagermech was that the XL engines meant I could be killed on any of my center torso slots, so I want to try a Standard engine for a change so I can take a little more punishment. I think that still leaves me with enough tonnage to equip myself nicely. This is what I came up with so far.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f3553e455b8a197[/smurfy]

Please unleash hell on my design and let me know how I fouled up. ^^

[Redshift2k5]

dual 20s is not the best for a missile boat. Multiple racks of 10s and 15s tends to fare better. A single 20 has longer recycle time and more heat than a pair of 10s! although using fewer larger launchers does have advantages when using Artemis.

Note that Artemis only gives benefits if you have line of sight to the target. If you are only firing indirectly, you don't get any benefits from the spent tonnage.

Too bad you can't buy a Battlemaster for another few weeks, they make excellent missile platforms.

[Victor Morson]

I wrote an LRM guide here

Bullet point version:

• You need to be fast
  
• You need TAG
  
• You need BAP
  
• You need Artemis
  
• Adv. Target Decay is a great module.
  
• UAV is also highly useful in tandem with LRMs if you are quick enough.
  
• LRMs are too heavy on most 'mechs to mount backup weapons - it's best to go all-in (with TAG).

-


Note of how the BAP+TAG and smaller, tighter groups results in pure-CT shots numerous times, while the speed allows optimal range and a huge evasion rate in every LRM exchange.

Skirmisher Shadow Hawk

If you really want an assault mboat, the only good option is the BattleMaster, which can be setup to move in the mid 80s - not too bad for something so heavy. After Speed Tweak, a really good 55 tonner boat should go around 90, or just under.

You're going to get a ton of other advice (and arguments for the necessity of backup weapons) but I will tell you now, the tonnage wasted in armoring limbs and adding guns is better spent on specializing and putting on ammo; do this one role and do it well.

LRMs are very easy to counter on slower 'mechs and too heavy for light ones, but these fast-movers are hard to pin.

Other options: Centurion, Griffin, Kintaro (KTO-18 specifically. NEVER the Golden Boy.) KTO is the last choice model, though, and I'd pick any of the others first for it.

[Autobot9000]

I have remade your Stalker, find smurfy version below. The changes are due to a couple of reasons:

• You probably (not necessarily, but probably) want a BAP, not just for speed up target info, but especially for those pesky ECM mechs, that swirl around you and block your target acquisition. Put an end to this by using BAP. BAP also means you can actually use the streaks for self defense vs ECM lights.
  
• You need a larger engine, the 275 is somewhat the minimum, because guess what's better than defending yourself? If you don't have to, because you can move with the group, which brings me to my next point:
  
• If you choose the Stalker (!) as your LRM platform, mind that you are not suitable for behind the hill, indirect {Scrap}. With a Stalker missile boat you go in-your-face to the front lines. Whoever opposes you eats your 40 volleys of LRMs. This is entirely different from playing a Catapult. With a Catapult (huge CT hitbox, lower armor) you hvae to play more from the last lines, avoiding enemy fire. When you play a Stalker your team can not afford you to be sitting pretty, you also have to tank with your armor. This is important. Facetime (=direct LOS) is also the only way to gain advantage from Artemis (I hope this is clear).
  
• You should never put ammo in the side torso of a Stalker. You will lose these side torsos sooner or later.
  
• Last but not least I only left the SSRMs in there because you put them in there (guess you like them? use hardpoints up for aesthetical reasons?). I think the Stalker is better off just with the medium lasers for self defense and more heat sinks
  
• Don't let others deceive you about LRM launchers, the bigger the merrier. The 20s have the highest DPS in game, arguing about reload time is silly. Targets tend to run for cover, so reload isn't what you want, you want the highest DPS (a term that includes the unit "per second", hence what is the faster reload good for? the 20s do the highest damage in a volley AND over time)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fdcbb4827c9d115



Personally I would make the 3H with less ammo, better engine and more heatsinks like this
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af96ab711255d77

When you play him correctly for your team (= up the front with direct sight on your target) you will not misfire half of your volleys and your LRMs will actually start to count. A up-front Stalker with a TAG and 20 Artemis launchers absolutely scares other mechs to death. Whenever that TAG shines up you can see the scared faces, because they know they are doomed. With the additional heatsinks you can use the medium lasers to support your LRM fire and more than 1000 missiles is plenty when you start hitting enemies instead of laying down "scare/suppression" fire, that hits nothing. 15 DHS is also enough to not make you look silly when you use the medium lasers without overheating, so you're not actually useless even wtihout LRMs.

Edited by Autobot9000, 21 December 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[maddog6707]

Best stalker load out I have.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89e97e08e7033cd

Here is an Awesome loadout also.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33e4f12377689d6

[Victor Morson]

maddog6707, on 21 December 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Best stalker load out I have.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89e97e08e7033cd

Here is an Awesome loadout also.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33e4f12377689d6

Again I need to stress to the OP that either of these would be killed by a 55 tonner with a proper skirmisher setup without even seriously scratching the paint on the medium.

They are too slow to maintain optimum firing range; a faster 'mech can dart the ranges and just flat out evade LRMs, while delivering more accurate salvos.

If you really want an LRM Assault, the BattleMaster is the only viable option atm.

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 December 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[sneeking]

I agree with some of victors points on this, if your going to lrm then forget backup systems and go pure boat.

where we differ is I won't waste tonnage or slots on tag or artemus (ammo ammo ammo) and more ammo !

im using a cplt a1 2x10's 4×5's the only thing I sacrifice ammo for on the whole build is 2xjj so im not wallking alone the long way around.
modules are usually target decay to help the last few find a home as either you or they take cover and coolshot because mine can realy heat up and sometimes I want to keep launching.

advice is " get used to been killed helplessly and don't get upset " you will have great games and very bad ones but you will earn lots of Cbills once your in the right mindset for it.

[Victor Morson]

sneeking, on 21 December 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

where we differ is I won't waste tonnage or slots on tag or artemus (ammo ammo ammo) and more ammo !

You will kill things far more efficenctly with TAG+Artemis, however, ultimately saving you ammo.

If I kill a target in 120 missiles and you kill a target in 280 missiles, your extra ammo evens out. It's a big deal.

[maddog6707]

For one LRMs should be used against light mechs. They are too fast and a waste of ammo.

Second speed is not always necessary. If you have some backup weapons you can easly chase off that annoying light or finish off any mech that gets to close

Lastly you are on a team. If the team knows you are boating lrms they well protect you and give you targets to shoot at. Now teammate aren't the most reliable so don't always count on them to maintain target lock.

Side note: LRM only builds just scream "come in close and where I can't do anything" As a pug pilot I can't rely on teammates to protect me when I am sitting in the back lobing LRMs. So your only choice would then be to run toward you allies and hope they feel like squashing the bug. In the meantime since you are not lobing LRMs, the enemy is taking the opportunity to move up or take some free shots at you teammates.

Just my opinion

[Buckminster]

Doesn't one of the Jagers have a missile version? I'd take that - by sticking with a variant of the same chassis you'll be one step closer to Elite efficiencies, which make a HUGE difference in the way a mech plays.

How's your current Jager loaded? If you've upgraded the engine in that, you'd be able to carry it over, and have a mech that moves and feels very similarly to one that you're used to.

And it has twin 15 tubes in each arm, which should be able to put out plenty of missiles. You also have the energy points, which will allow you to get TAG.

I was going to make a Smurfy example, but a lot of that really depends on what engines you have. I'd hate to design something, and not take into account that you have a 300XL sitting around.

Edit: my 2 cents on some of what others have said:

• Ammo is important, but TAG and BAP are worth the weight.
  
• Artemis is good if you have fewer large launchers. I'd put it on 2 LRM15s, but not on 6 LRM5s.
  
• Speed is important. As a dedicated PUGger, I do love pure LRM boat Stalkers, because I can get close and kill. They are sooooo slow.
  
• Pick the 5 or 15 over the 10 or 20, if weight and slots allow. You'll save weight - 2 LRM5s weigh less than an LRM10
  
• Take your tubes into account. Stuffing an LRM20 into a 15 tube spot is a waste IMO. All it really does is make AMS more effective.
  
• AMS is also worth the weight. As the guy in the back launching missiles, their guys in back with missiles will likely be trying to counter you.

Edited by Buckminster, 21 December 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[Rascula]

LRM boats are tricky beasts to play but can be very rewarding, but they can be very frustrating to grind and expensive to kit out. On top of that everyone has an opinion on what works best, and you may have to tweek your chosen mech a lot to get the best out of it. For example I love my Awesome 8R and regularly score very high damage and kills with it but its taken a lot of grinding, testing, fitting, unfitting and then refitting artemis and modules over months of play to get it to where it is now...And after all that one ECM fitted light can utterly ruin my day if im not careful! ( And lets not forget its an Awesome so some folks will rail on it just because they consider that chassis unplayable... I can assure you it is anything but!)

Personally I had great difficulty in making an effective stalker missile boat as they're simply to slow to get to where you need to be to use your LRM's effectively. In my opinion Highlander's, Awesome's and Battlemaster's all make better boats for them as far as assault mechs go.

So personally id advise you start with a chassis you know and work from there and as Buckmaster said above the Jeager might well be a good starting point for you - especially when you factor in having to grind 3 mechs to unlock those oh so needed elite skills and your already most of the way their with that chassis. Or sticking with Heavies the Catapult is a great mech too.

At the end of the day your play style will dictate what works best for you, some things are pretty much a must though for any LRM boat.. Tag, Artemis if your using larger launchers, Beagle if you can squeeze it in, the Target Decay module, and finally some back up weapons... I cant tell you ow many times having just a couple of medium lasers have saved my ***!

Good luck out there!

Edited by Rascula, 21 December 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

A skirmisher with an LRM is very different from an LRM boat. I've enjoyed my Quickdraws with an LRM15 plus a payload of MLAS and SRM; Shoot and scoot with the LRMs until they're empty then move in to skirmish. Good for teams and solo.

A Stalker won't be doing that. It's a different playstyle, hang back and make it rain. you need lots of launchers, lots of ammo, and a supportive team. This works bets in a team, or at least with lots of text comm to coordinate your role.

[Autobot9000]

Redshift2k5, on 21 December 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

A Stalker won't be doing that. It's a different playstyle, hang back and make it rain. you need lots of launchers, lots of ammo, and a supportive team. This works bets in a team, or at least with lots of text comm to coordinate your role.

That's one way to see it. If you're doing this, you're running a XL engine. This is not what a PUG player will do. In a PUG you can not count on your egoistic team mates protecting your XL-***. The viable PUG way to run the stalker LRM is with 2 20s a fast std engine and going in-your-face with the LRMs. Also with the hang back thing using Artemis would be counterproductive, as it wouldnt give you any advantage, just make you lose additional tonnage.

[Koniving]

Actually a standard engine Stalker can very easily be run as a missile boat.

This LRM-75 missile boat is running a standard 250 engine. The LRM-100 behind me is running a standard 100 (though his Artemis and such causes really low armor, so I keep telling him if he wants to pack 5 LRM 20s he should change from standard to double heatsinks and run an XL engine instead, or change to what I have with the standard engine).

Note: These builds are aptly termed Challenge (mine) and Joke (the other) for a reason. They are not meant for new players, nor are they 'easy' to use by any means.

Ultimately it runs the same premise as the ROFLpult (look up "Kon" and "Roflpult" together on youtube) but with full armor, standard engine, more ammo, one fewer launcher.

More advised as a Stalker missile boat is one that uses 2 15s (if a 3H, otherwise 2 10s) with 2 5s, accompanied by 4 MPL for close range defense (MPLs should be chainfired). It is un-surprisingly devastating when played well in an ideal environment while pugged, but get two together and it's close to a massacre. Combine two with escorts and it's "invincible™".

I would advise Skirmishers as you get your personal abilities in the game up, though. Boats are notoriously slow and thus easy to ambush.

Edited by Koniving, 21 December 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[stkxie]

Khulod, STAY AWAY from pure missile boat set up because it is useless. When you are building a mech you need to think like:

1. I am pugging an pugs are stupid. I need to be able to defend myself.
2. Pugs are stupid, I need to be able to move and avoid lots of damage.
3. Light mech pilots are nasty I have to be able to scare them away.
4. Pugs are stupid I have to be able to help my team mates kill stuff quickly.

@ Y'ALL: When you guy are suggesting builds for new players how about you post a screenshot or a video where you play build you recommend and do a little better then useless / mediocre.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3e51cf5ee2d6d51

Summary: 6 Kills 5 Assists 925 damage.

Edited by stkxie, 23 December 2013 - 02:30 AM.

[sneeking]

4 kills 5 assists 803 damage cplt a1c pure lrms ( admittedly my best effort to date ) regularly around 4 kills 7 assists but less damage than that.

you do see me stress the fact that it can go realy wrong and to be prepared for that, be willing to accept some failure

[Buckminster]

stkxie, on 23 December 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

@ Y'ALL: When you guy are suggesting builds for new players how about you post a screenshot or a video where you play build you recommend and do a little better then useless / mediocre.

I hesitate to post screenshots because they can be so misleading, it's way too easy to look at great numbers and not see the circumstances that made those great numbers. Maybe you and your build were awesome, or maybe your opponent just stunk that bad.

Although I do agree that videos can help, because it also shows the tactics that went in to making that mech successful. I like the fact that you threw in the comments as well - this is the kind of stuff that new players need.

Edit: Also interesting to point out that your missile "boat" only has 5 LRM5s on it, and has a rather large engine. I think too many people get caught up in the "OMG MOAR MISSILES", and try and build stuff like Kon's LRM75 and LRM100 builds, which can be notoriously awful.

Edited by Buckminster, 23 December 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[Cerberias]

LRM's are very unreliable, some games you'll smash it others you'll get hard countered and do next to nothing. They're also heavily reliant on your enemy playing badly to do damage - i.e. not using cover/position/ecm. They also make you think you're doing better than you actually are, as the damage they do is quite often spread out over the enemy mech - even with artemis and tag if the enemy mech twists you'll be doing very little damage to CT and they can spread it out whichever way they like. That being said, the effect of being hit by LRM's is more than damage, so they're quite good at dissuading an enemy charge and for 'stunlocking' someone into finding it very difficult to put out reciprocal damage. Essentially though, they're very limited when the other team plays well, and as such, the higher you go in ELO the less LRM's you'll see and the harder you'll find it to well in one.

I think the best you can shoot for in a higher skill game is being a fast LRM boat with JJ's, so you can utilise position to negate enemy cover through flanking, TAG to pierce ECM cover and have a potential for a lock, and a few Medlas to dissuade enemy lights from picking on you and give them something to keep them on their toes. A LRM boat without backup weapons puts out no pressure to keep the enemy mech from focus firing too hard. I think my favourite (and only, now) LRM is a Catapult with Tag/2LargeLas/2LRM15's XL 300, good balance.

[Sam Slade]

1. Do not waste an Assault mech slot with an LRM boat... Victors are fast enough to get in and chew your LRMassault to bits easily.

2. But a Catapault C1

3. Fit Arteimis, Endo-steel, DHS, 2 x LRM 20, 3 x Medium Lasers, TAG, full Jump jets, BAP, and about 1000 rounds of ammo. Use and XL engine

4. LRM and fight in close support effectivly

5. win

[Fuggles]

As mentioned before, if you haven't unlocked elite yet on you jagermech, try the A variant as it has 4 missle racks. I've run dual ac5 4x lrm5 with success. You can swap out the 5s for 2s if your running out of ammo.

If your looking for a new chassis I'd suggest catapults or orions. Both are xl friendly and have the hardpoints and tubes to be successful.