1080 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 24 December 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Lol, not at all. Same issue. If you have a problem with jump sniping, learn to use cover. Jump sniping is USELESS without pinpoint, instantaneous damage (AC/PPC). On the other hand, pinpoint, instantaneous damage loses nothing without jump jets. Equip a JJ mech with all duration weapons and try to jump snipe with it - go ahead, try it - and still tell me the issue is with jump jets. You would be lying if you did.

I have no problem with jump sniping myself. I play all roles fairly equally because I like a well rounded experience. THere should be direct fire weapons in this game since they open up the door for different play styles. Stalkers used to use alot of them, so did awesomes, etc etc. They have sadly gone by the way side because of the prevalance of jump sniping making it in efficient to not use a jump capable mech to do the same thing better. Changing this would alter the meta and make more mechs playable again.

That said your arguing simply over there needing to be no direct fire instantaneous. I vehemently disagree. This would take out a completely sect of players and what they like to run and use.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I have no problem with jump sniping myself. I play all roles fairly equally because I like a well rounded experience. THere should be direct fire weapons in this game since they open up the door for different play styles. Stalkers used to use alot of them, so did awesomes, etc etc. They have sadly gone by the way side because of the prevalance of jump sniping making it in efficient to not use a jump capable mech to do the same thing better. Changing this would alter the meta and make more mechs playable again.

That said your arguing simply over there needing to be no direct fire instantaneous. I vehemently disagree. This would take out a completely sect of players and what they like to run and use.

The issue is WHY they like it - because it is 100% better.

You totally avoided answering my challenge, though. Take either JJ or pinpoint damage out of the equation - which actually makes a difference? Without JJs, pinpoint is unaffected. Without pinpoint, JJs are useless for anything but getting over speed bumps. Make a JJ mech with only duration weapons - jump sniping will be useless.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 24 December 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The issue is WHY they like it - because it is 100% better.

You totally avoided answering my challenge, though. Take either JJ or pinpoint damage out of the equation - which actually makes a difference? Without JJs, pinpoint is unaffected. Without pinpoint, JJs are useless for anything but getting over speed bumps. Make a JJ mech with only duration weapons - jump sniping will be useless.

its not about them being better or worse, they fullfill different roles.

That said I dont want to make jump sniping useless, I want it alive and breathing in every way possible. your argument is to make a system to make jump sniping useless. that would push people out of this game.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

its not about them being better or worse, they fullfill different roles.

That said I dont want to make jump sniping useless, I want it alive and breathing in every way possible. your argument is to make a system to make jump sniping useless. that would push people out of this game.

Actually, jump sniping can be a reason to push players out ot game.

What mechs do you run? Do you run any lights or mediums?

[Varent]

Praetor Shepard, on 24 December 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Actually, jump sniping can be a reason to push players out ot game.

What mechs do you run? Do you run any lights or mediums?

I simply feel jump sniping needs to be altered to the point that it leaves room for other builds, easiest way to do that is to change jump jets.

I own 56 mechs currently. I run every light mech chasis and every medium mech chasis with the exception of the trebuchet. I did own the treb for abit, didnt like it.

Edited by Varent, 24 December 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Praetor Shepard, on 24 December 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Actually, jump sniping can be a reason to push players out ot game.

What mechs do you run? Do you run any lights or mediums?

I think jump sniping was a strong reason for people to leave. I used to be-leave that PGI used the forums much like a canary in a cave. if the forums are flaming and population is stable... then nothing is wrong.... if players are doping and forums are QQ over jump sniping then jump sniping might need to be looked at. other wise its business as normal.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I simply feel jump sniping needs to be altered to the point that it leaves room for other builds, easiest way to do that is to change jump jets.

I own 56 mechs currently. I run every light mech chasis and every medium mech chasis with the exception of the trebuchet. I did own the treb for abit, didnt like it.

I think that there needs to be a mix of equipment tweaked.

A single Jump Jet provides too much, and there needs to be a better trade off with the amount equipped to how they can benefit the player.

With weapons we then need some more variety, along with improvements for weapons, so that ballistics aren't as dominant. Part of that is looking into burst fire on ballistics, with also looking at our high rate of fire and heat generation/dissipation and capacity.

[Tombstoner]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I simply feel jump sniping needs to be altered to the point that it leaves room for other builds, easiest way to do that is to change jump jets.

I would scale drop damage by tonnage. if it is already then increase the slope until people start to use JJ correctly and save some energy for landings and not just 1-2 JJ for a high advantage and snap shots. I have never jumped sniped from anything larger then a Jenner and almost never from a stand still. so I'm not sure how its done in a highlander. i presume as cheesy as possible.

[Varent]

Praetor Shepard, on 24 December 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I think that there needs to be a mix of equipment tweaked.

A single Jump Jet provides too much, and there needs to be a better trade off with the amount equipped to how they can benefit the player.

With weapons we then need some more variety, along with improvements for weapons, so that ballistics aren't as dominant. Part of that is looking into burst fire on ballistics, with also looking at our high rate of fire and heat generation/dissipation and capacity.

disagree strongly on the weapons changing. agree to a point on the more variety... though its gonna be interesting to see what happens with the clans and that.. though thats probly just gonna open up another can of worms.

agree on the jump jets. just comes down to how to impliment it. alot of good ideas out there really.

Tombstoner, on 24 December 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I would scale drop damage by tonnage. if it is already then increase the slope until people start to use JJ correctly and save some energy for landings and not just 1-2 JJ for a high advantage and snap shots. I have never jumped sniped from anything larger then a Jenner and almost never from a stand still. so I'm not sure how its done in a highlander. i presume as cheesy as possible.

it actually is abit harder to do on a highlander. That said its fairly easy to do with one on a victor, so a mute point. I like this idea though, scaled with weight and adding more damage to the fall I think would be a really nice and very easy change. would be fun to watch someone doing it incorrectly go legless.

[Lyoto Machida]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

you missed alot apparently. The argument was over the time it takes to hold a weapon on track. When you can be 1000 meters away not even physically seeing your target with a hill in the way from people hitting you then the concept of having to hold a weapon on target and expose yourself to fire is null and void. Go grind your lrm axe elsewhere please k thanks.

That's not how you play LRM in PUGs lol. Try that and end up dead. Can't wait to make my PUG LRM thread and see the responses...playing LRMs WELL is harder than most people think. In most cases, you have to be with the brawlers and direct firing from 250-400m away.

Indirect fire is for chumps.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

disagree strongly on the weapons changing. agree to a point on the more variety... though its gonna be interesting to see what happens with the clans and that.. though thats probly just gonna open up another can of worms.

agree on the jump jets. just comes down to how to impliment it. alot of good ideas out there really.

The variables that I'd like to look at for example, are raising the projectile speed on SRMs while reducing the number of missiles tracked by the server [by grouping them by 2 so that one SRM 6 fire three groups of 2, and an 3x SRM 6 fires 9 groups, instead of tracking 18 individual missiles]; the idea being to provide more consistency with their hit reg for more players.

Another variable would be reducing beam duration on energy weapons.

Then it would also be good to test having a higher heat dissipation and a lower heat capacity so that big alphas are still dangerous but not as dominating as they tend to be.

Edit: I goofed on SRM idea, not enough detail. added

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 24 December 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Tesunie]

Lyoto Machida, on 24 December 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's not how you play LRM in PUGs lol. Try that and end up dead. Can't wait to make my PUG LRM thread and see the responses...playing LRMs WELL is harder than most people think. In most cases, you have to be with the brawlers and direct firing from 250-400m away.

Indirect fire is for chumps.

I already made a few LRM guide threads... (Link in my signature) But basically you got most of what needs to be done mentioned right there. Indirect is still very handy if you have a group that can make it work. With Pugs, it can be very much hit or miss on having a team that works with your LRMs. But when they do, on the carnage!

[Varent]

Praetor Shepard, on 24 December 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Another variable would be reducing beam duration on energy weapons.

that is a very very good idea.

[Lyoto Machida]

Tesunie, on 24 December 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I already made a few LRM guide threads... (Link in my signature) But basically you got most of what needs to be done mentioned right there. Indirect is still very handy if you have a group that can make it work. With Pugs, it can be very much hit or miss on having a team that works with your LRMs. But when they do, on the carnage!

I ran a 5 game test in PUGs last night in Skirmish mode. Averaged 1 kill, 1.4 assists and 529 damage (something like that...I posted the exact numbers in a couple threads) in a BLR-1S. Gonna make a research thread and put up screenshots as proof. No spotters for me...just direct fire like I mentioned. Maybe I just got lucky in the five games but I don't think so...considering I've spent 27.5 hours in an Awesome 8R, I think I know a thing or two about LRMs. My BLR-1S has 93 kills to 34 deaths in 7 hours of play, so it's no slouch either.

If you can direct fire like an LRM "brawler," indirect firing with a spotter should be a piece of cake. One is harder than the other...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'm running my BLR-1S in the same manner, a medium range LRM brawler. Certainly interesting.

[Lyoto Machida]

Praetor Shepard, on 24 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I'm running my BLR-1S in the same manner, a medium range LRM brawler. Certainly interesting.

Interesting and effective. Something about it just makes me not want to ever get back in my AWE-8R...maybe I've spent too much time in there or the missiles in the 1S just seem to clear terrain better on the way out. Hit reg seems better in the 1S for whatever reason also (not sure if that's really true). XL360 also doesn't hurt...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Lyoto Machida, on 24 December 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Interesting and effective. Something about it just makes me not want to ever get back in my AWE-8R...maybe I've spent too much time in there or the missiles in the 1S just seem to clear terrain better on the way out. Hit reg seems better in the 1S for whatever reason also (not sure if that's really true). XL360 also doesn't hurt...

I don't remember my engine off hand, but I have 2 ALRM15 in the arms, 2 ALRM 10 in torso, TAG, BAP, LPL and ML with Endo and a mix of DHS and ammo, maybe ~1000 missiles?

I use the arms Launchers when I have direct LOS, they can get caught up on terrain.

The 10s clear very well, and can be chained to have opponents seek cover too. Due to slots and tonnage, I just stuck whatever I could in the energy slots.

[Cimarb]

Inspired by Mr. Proctor and Mr. Shepard, I thought I would see what my stats said as well. I added a few columns I thought were important, such as damage per tonnage, damage per crit, both of those including est ammo, damage per heat, etc. Depending on what column you base it upon, you could argue for or against pretty much anything, which explains why this is such a hard thing to get "right". I need to figure out a way to compare the balance between heat/ton/crit among the various weapon types now...

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 24 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Inspired by Mr. Proctor and Mr. Shepard, I thought I would see what my stats said as well. I added a few columns I thought were important, such as damage per tonnage, damage per crit, both of those including est ammo, damage per heat, etc. Depending on what column you base it upon, you could argue for or against pretty much anything, which explains why this is such a hard thing to get "right". I need to figure out a way to compare the balance between heat/ton/crit among the various weapon types now...

none of these numbers take into account actual engagements and how they went. Particularly because DPS is a horrible statistic to evaluate any weapon in a shooter. A better way to determine how weapons work for you is to playtest them under a number of circumstances with friends.

Edited by Varent, 24 December 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 24 December 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

none of these numbers take into account actual engagements and how they went. Particularly because DPS is a horrible statistic to evaluate any weapon in a shooter. A better way to determine how weapons work for you is to playtest them under a number of circumstances with friends.

What do you think all those matches have been?.... unless you are talking about training grounds, which is a horrible gauge of a weapon. About the only thing that is good for it testing your trigger button - yup, it works...