1080 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

Why not make a laser front loaded damage just like ACs?

You read that whole post, took the time to reply, and then you ask this question?

Why don't you answer it? What would happen if lasers had the same damage-dealing mechanic as ACs and PPCs currently have?

[Joseph Mallan]

Matches faster and I get more Kills. Its a win in my book.

[mania3c]

stjobe, on 03 January 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

You read that whole post, took the time to reply, and then you ask this question?

Why don't you answer it? What would happen if lasers had the same damage-dealing mechanic as ACs and PPCs currently have?

Everybody would be crying that noone is using ACs anymore ..

same thing would happen when AC/s/PPCs would be "beam-like" weapons..

None of these is solution honestly..

[Joseph Mallan]

mania3c, on 03 January 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

Everybody would be crying that noone is using ACs anymore ..

same thing would happen when AC/s/PPCs would be "beam-like" weapons..

None of these is solution honestly..

But at least we now have two ideas on the table.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Matches faster and I get more Kills. Its a win in my book.

That's a very short-sighted conclusion Joe, to the point of being akin to putting your hands over your ears and going "la-la-la-can't-hear-you".

If lasers behaved like ACs and PPCs, a 4 ML Commando would behave like it was an AC/20 Commando, putting 20 damage instantly in one spot, but with no flight-time delay. Just aim and click and boom! Armour gone. Talk about buffing lights... But not really, since there's plenty of 'mechs out there that can mount way more than 4 ML. A JR7-F would behave like it had one and a half AC/20s, or dual Gauss. A BJ-1X could deal instantly the damage of a dual AC/20.

It would destroy the game completely.

The only thing that's keeping ACs and PPCs from being totally overpowered is the fact that they have flight time, so a lot of shots miss. If they were hitscan like lasers, the game would be unplayable. You wouldn't survive getting hit ever.

That's not BattleTech.

Now one could fiddle with conversion, or implement a cone of fire, or implement some global cooldown system to alleviate the instant-damage problem, but the absolutely easiest and least disruptive way of getting a handle both on that problem and weapon balance in general would be to make ACs burst-fire and PPCs beam-duration.

Edited by stjobe, 03 January 2014 - 06:42 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Matches faster and I get more Kills. Its a win in my book.

I figure it is more that you will get killed more often and earlier.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 January 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

I figure it is more that you will get killed more often and earlier.

That is to be expected AND accepted.

@ StJobe, That is mostly fixed by opening up convergence (CoF) when firing multiple weapons. Its a really simple balance.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 January 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[Varent]

Merchant, on 02 January 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

You're right, changing ACs & PPCs will not help Lights, it would to some degree work against them.

I have my doubts on your abilities as a heavy/assault pilot fighting off lights then.

Any assault pilot will tell you there saving grace is a high alpha weapon working for a leg or crippling shot.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

That is to be expected AND accepted.

@ StJobe, That is mostly fixed by opening up convergence (CoF) when firing multiple weapons. Its a really simple balance.

How so? All I would have to do to avoid any convergence penalties would be cycle my weapons. The front-loaded damage, which is the actual issue, is still there, plus I have complicated the issue by making lasers do the same front-loaded damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't see front loaded damage as an issue. You cycle your weapons and you are not as likely to hit all your shots on >.< that pixel any more. Chain firing ACs does not put all the shot on one pixel.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 03 January 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Why don't you answer it? What would happen if lasers had the same damage-dealing mechanic as ACs and PPCs currently have?

I would love to answer this.

lets say they have the same damage dealing mechanic per say, so spreading the damage like a laser does.

Ok assault mechs become instantly nerfed quite hard. Light mechs since basically all of them rely on lasers would instantly get a huge buff.

In addition any mech that is hard to hit and deal specific damage too, for example mediums and heavies that can torso twist also gain a buff just based off the fact that its harder to hit anything of note or focus your damage whatsoever. also lights become relatively impossible to kill with the exception of streaks.

Jump sniping dies a very miserable slow death since it would take out every facet of it. I know some may like this but you do realize you basically are taking a large player base and giving them a big **** you right? Kinda not cool especially since this game needs multiple types of play styles to feel real at all.

In addition you make lasers the new op since they weigh vastly vastly less overall and while you may argue that they use more heat sinks, on medium and light mechs that use primarly mediums, they really dont run that hot and you can still be very combat effective, as Ive shown.

Lastly when community warefare comes along ammo is not an issue at all since, why worry about ammo, just bring lasers on all your mechs anyways and say **** it. You could also make primarly supression builds with er large lasers at range, hell maybe even a team of 12 large laser boats that only focuses on surpressions peoples abilities to turn corners. By removing ammo as a factor you can just spam lasers all day with impunity and actually make a supression factor to this game that will have you just hiding behind a corner and waiting or dieing the moment you turn to focused fire.

Ok now, what benefits will it have? You will be alive longer, purely for the sake of the mech having the damage spread all over the place. Thats... it really.... Im failing to see any other benefits? And keep in mind it also works two ways. You also wont kill anyone that effectively or quickly either.

Wich also means even if you pull off a good flank.. it will be for nill since the team will be able to react much faster. You are taking a game that relies on positioning and timing and working as a group.... and would turn it into a brawling fest.

[Zyllos]

What has been explained the past several pages is exactly what is the issue with MWO's core gameplay (at least one of the major issues).

Light mechs only defeat assault mechs due to pin point convergence vs large, slow moving targets (this is also indirectly why medium mechs feel weak in combat, overall).

Sure, I am fine with the situation that an assault mech should have issues hitting a light due to attempting to track such a fast target, but that light mech should take forever getting through that assault mech due to armor, but this isn't the case.

But about getting to the bottom of the problem and how to fix it, the end result has to look like this: A small, fast, light mech firing at a large, slow, assault mech should feel equal in chance to hit the location players are attempting to aim at and vise versa.

Basically, the assault mech will receive more overall hits than the light mech, but the assault mech will achieve much longer survivability due to more armor points while the light mech achieves limited survivability by misses.

This is generally best achieved by some type of CoF but the problem with this is that a straight up CoF will lead to just as many issues as fixes. That is why I like Homeless Bill's suggestion of a TCL/TCS system (Targeting Computer Load/Targeting Computer Stress) that is a resource in controlling if there is a CoF. And, the CoF system acts differently for each weapon style.

This opens the game up to systems that are contained within the TT for utilization (Clan Targeting Computer) and balancing adjustments relating to how much TCS a weapon has. It also allows for action utilization for controlling the threshold for CoF, like walking vs. running (standing still should never be different from walking for this determination to keep combat moving) vs. jumping/falling.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't see front loaded damage as an issue. You cycle your weapons and you are not as likely to hit all your shots on &gt;.&lt; that pixel any more. Chain firing ACs does not put all the shot on one pixel.

I'm obviously confused. You are saying that you want to force people to chain fire ACs to avoid them putting all the damage in one spot, but say it is fine to put the whole 20 points of damage from an AC20 instantly into one hitbox? How does convergence fix anything that is actually an issue right now? No one is saying lasers are overpowered, even during a time where people are saying LRM flooding is overpowered, lol - that should tell you how low lasers are on the totem pole right now.

[Cimarb]

Zyllos, on 03 January 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

What has been explained the past several pages is exactly what is the issue with MWO's core gameplay (at least one of the major issues).

Light mechs only defeat assault mechs due to pin point convergence vs large, slow moving targets (this is also indirectly why medium mechs feel weak in combat, overall).

Sure, I am fine with the situation that an assault mech should have issues hitting a light due to attempting to track such a fast target, but that light mech should take forever getting through that assault mech due to armor, but this isn't the case.

But about getting to the bottom of the problem and how to fix it, the end result has to look like this: A small, fast, light mech firing at a large, slow, assault mech should feel equal in chance to hit the location players are attempting to aim at and vise versa.

Basically, the assault mech will receive more overall hits than the light mech, but the assault mech will achieve much longer survivability due to more armor points while the light mech achieves limited survivability by misses.

This is generally best achieved by some type of CoF but the problem with this is that a straight up CoF will lead to just as many issues as fixes. That is why I like Homeless Bill's suggestion of a TCL/TCS system (Targeting Computer Load/Targeting Computer Stress) that is a resource in controlling if there is a CoF. And, the CoF system acts differently for each weapon style.

This opens the game up to systems that are contained within the TT for utilization (Clan Targeting Computer) and balancing adjustments relating to how much TCS a weapon has. It also allows for action utilization for controlling the threshold for CoF, like walking vs. running (standing still should never be different from walking for this determination to keep combat moving) vs. jumping/falling.

Ok, you convergence people DO realize that convergence systems of any type actually work AGAINST larger mechs, right? Take any convergence and try to hit a barn with it - now do the same thing and try to hit the wagon sitting in front of the barn. Every tiny bit of convergence is exponentially better for lights and worse for assaults.

[GODzillaGSPB]

That Guy, on 22 December 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

a better solution would be for ballistic weapons to have a small cone of fire. close range shots still will hit where you aim, but long range shots wont always hit exactly where you aim, spreading damage. especially when there are 3 PPC and heavy AC grouped together. after-all we accept cone of fire for missile weapons, MGs and LBX, why not a small one for ballistic weapons? a COF about the size of the arm reticule would do the trick

ballistic weapons deviate, that's just how they work. and it allows other ultra and later rotary ACs to be implemented with out breaking the game. those weapons can be less accurate.

Wow...this makes so much sense. And I'm even saying that as someone who loves his ac/10 and ac/20 and used to love the gauss.

Why I'm saying this to your post in particular (I've seen others in the past) is because you also added a short but important addition: "about the size of the arm reticule" which sounds perfectly reasonable. It also cut's out what most people fear - that the whole aiming mechanic would become pure luck. But when you KNOW that it will hit INSIDE the radious of your reticle, than only the player is to blame when the shot goes into the sky.

Problem is thought...it makes too much sense for PGI. It sounds like a perfect solution to me (but I'm not a game designer) but at the very least it sounds like something promising that could and should be tested. Or taken into consideration. Well...if we learned anything about PGI than it is that they will always go the other way. Always.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 03 January 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I'm obviously confused. You are saying that you want to force people to chain fire ACs to avoid them putting all the damage in one spot, but say it is fine to put the whole 20 points of damage from an AC20 instantly into one hitbox? How does convergence fix anything that is actually an issue right now? No one is saying lasers are overpowered, even during a time where people are saying LRM flooding is overpowered, lol - that should tell you how low lasers are on the totem pole right now.

Yes I am. Its the reason to have an AC20. To obliterate out enemy with heavy weapons fire. Changing convergence stops me from putting 40 damage on one Pixel (or at least limits its occurrence). I have been facing 15 and 20 point weapons for the better part of three decades, with half as much armor.

As to no body saying Lasers are OP... for 6 months you were an ***** to have brought an AC to the field. Give it a few months, if we nerf ACs, Lasers WILL be complained about and requests to Nerf will surface. If we keep going this way we will be feeding a never ending cycle that will only end in every weapon doing 1 damage at 80 meters.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Yes I am. Its the reason to have an AC20. To obliterate out enemy with heavy weapons fire. Changing convergence stops me from putting 40 damage on one Pixel (or at least limits its occurrence). I have been facing 15 and 20 point weapons for the better part of three decades, with half as much armor.

As to no body saying Lasers are OP... for 6 months you were an ***** to have brought an AC to the field. Give it a few months, if we nerf ACs, Lasers WILL be complained about and requests to Nerf will surface. If we keep going this way we will be feeding a never ending cycle that will only end in every weapon doing 1 damage at 80 meters.

Its gone back and forth for awhile... it always will thats part of gaming, the nerf bat swings both ways.

I still say its not the weapons, it the way jump jets function currently and are implimented.

[Almond Brown]

Rhent, on 22 December 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Please discuss SRM's and NARC and how they are balanced.

When did NARC become a weapon? wowzers...

[Varent]

Almond Brown, on 03 January 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

When did NARC become a weapon? wowzers...

Its a tool. it TECHNICALLY does like.. 1 damage I think... but its a tool.

that said SRMS are balance. Hit detection is just wonky. Once hit detection comes back they are gonna be scary as hell.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

I would love to answer this.

lets say they have the same damage dealing mechanic per say, so spreading the damage like a laser does.

Ok assault mechs become instantly nerfed quite hard. Light mechs since basically all of them rely on lasers would instantly get a huge buff.

Light(er) mechs are at a disadvantage currently because they are unable to mount ACs. Having ACs do burst fire won't change that.

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

In addition any mech that is hard to hit and deal specific damage too, for example mediums and heavies that can torso twist also gain a buff just based off the fact that its harder to hit anything of note or focus your damage whatsoever. also lights become relatively impossible to kill with the exception of streaks.

So you are saying this would make mediums and heavies better? Awesome! Lights would be just as susceptible to ACs as they are to beam damage right now, but would be worried about damage adding up instead of luck-or-death dodging like they are currently. Also awesome.

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Jump sniping dies a very miserable slow death since it would take out every facet of it. I know some may like this but you do realize you basically are taking a large player base and giving them a big **** you right? Kinda not cool especially since this game needs multiple types of play styles to feel real at all.

So the most complained about meta in the game would be removed and jump jets would go back to simply being a mobility tool again? Darnit.... /sarcasm

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

In addition you make lasers the new op since they weigh vastly vastly less overall and while you may argue that they use more heat sinks, on medium and light mechs that use primarly mediums, they really dont run that hot and you can still be very combat effective, as Ive shown.

The heat system needs addressed as well, I agree. If all weapons are spreading damage relatively equally, you can then remove ghost heat, fix the heat system, and start balancing energy vs ballistics the way they should be: heat vs ammo/weight.

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Lastly when community warefare comes along ammo is not an issue at all since, why worry about ammo, just bring lasers on all your mechs anyways and say **** it. You could also make primarly supression builds with er large lasers at range, hell maybe even a team of 12 large laser boats that only focuses on surpressions peoples abilities to turn corners. By removing ammo as a factor you can just spam lasers all day with impunity and actually make a supression factor to this game that will have you just hiding behind a corner and waiting or dieing the moment you turn to focused fire.

You are assuming people wouldn't use ACs anymore, which is incorrect. People use LRMs currently, and they are by far the least "meta" system. People also use SRMs, flamers and MGs still. I don't think any change to ACs will make everyone completely stop using them, so stop with the sky is falling stuff, lol.

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Ok now, what benefits will it have? You will be alive longer, purely for the sake of the mech having the damage spread all over the place. Thats... it really.... Im failing to see any other benefits? And keep in mind it also works two ways. You also wont kill anyone that effectively or quickly either.

Wich also means even if you pull off a good flank.. it will be for nill since the team will be able to react much faster. You are taking a game that relies on positioning and timing and working as a group.... and would turn it into a brawling fest.

I don't brawl with my LLs, so I'm not sure how making ACs function like them will make it a brawl fest. The best brawlers right now are the front-loaded damage mechs, just like they are the best snipers currently for the same reason.