1080 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Noesis, on 04 January 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

stuff

Questionably however, if the fine tuned values would end up being so small that the overall effect is to not change things at all by effectiveness in terms of removal of some pinpoint damage effects without making ballistic significantly worse then you could argue it is then not worth the production investment to do so.

Bingo! In order to not make the Ballistics like the Lasers, the time between burst shells would have to be so short as to negate the effect it is attempting to fix.

If even once I shoot my AC20 and do not get my 20 points, then the game is fubar'd and beyond repair (except back to before the fubar)

It has been shown, for the Proof required addicts, that Ballistics provide roughly 50-60% more damage per weapon use than Lasers.

Solution: Decrease the burn times of Lasers by 35-50% to raise their level to be more in line with Ballistics. Simple really. Save for the obvious consequence. Increased TTK.

The weird thing is, PGI determined a Match should last up to 15 minutes. That time frame would seem to be based on whatever TTK was in the initial weapon damage/Testing phases. However, after all this time, I think it would be safe to say that almost from Day 1 of at least OB, the average Match time would be somewhere in the 7-8 minute range, or already 50% less than expected. Thus reducing that time would seem detrimental to the over-all game play so some other means needs to be found.

What would the out cry be, I wonder, if all the weapons, with the exception of Missiles, simply got a 30% reduction on their CD's? Yes, 30 is a random value but would not totally change even the longest CD of 4.00 currently in the game.

So the 4.00s goes up to 5.2s as the new Max?

Good, Bad, Indifferent?

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 07 January 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

That's a big IF though good sir. Again I just don't see front loaded damage as the culprit.
I'd MUCH rather see range reduced to start with and see what happens with that.
As it is now you can take an AC20 and essentially have An AC20 for short range, AC 10 for medium range, AC5 for long range, and AC 2 for extreme range.
Other than speed of projectile you essentially have every caliber AC in one with the way ranges work now

The three problems with ballistics currently:
1. x3 range modifier
2. All ACs do the same DPS and are essentially AC20s by definition (~20 damage in five seconds)
3. Front-loaded damage

If they fixed any two of these, I would be happy. I don't even care which two!

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Dropship mode is respawning. Regardless of how you want to sugar coat it by calling it something else.

Why are you arguing over semantics? Total waste of good arguing time...

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Makes sense. The AC/20, dual PPC build was too easy mode for doing 40 damage to one location. This should help split up the damage.

Changing the flight time may break the sync between the PPC and AC20, if they ever matched, but doesn't fix anything else and is a bad solution. This is why I worry about PGI - they seem to make completely arbitrary decisions instead of listening to the people playing the game. I mean, in 41 pages of us arguing in this thread alone, did ANYONE even mention flight speed as a suggestion?... /sigh

[Khobai]

Quote

Changing the flight time may break the sync between the PPC and AC20, if they ever matched, but doesn't fix anything else and is a bad solution.

yeah its not a good solution. we still have pinpoint alpha and its still broken...

the only acceptable fix is to make ppcs do splash damage and autocannons burst fire. damage needs to get spread out more across multiple locations.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

yeah its not a good solution. we still have pinpoint alpha and its still broken...

the only acceptable fix is to make ppcs do splash damage and autocannons burst fire. damage needs to get spread out more across multiple locations.

Break up Alpha Strikes by adding a CoF. You want accuracy fire your weapons in Chain mode or single fire. If I wanna Alpha I should be willing to sacrifice some accuracy o get it. That should be acceptable.

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Break up Alpha Strikes by adding a CoF. You want accuracy fire your weapons in Chain mode or single fire. If I wanna Alpha I should be willing to sacrifice some accuracy o get it. That should be acceptable.

I really like this idea. It cuts down on the ranged damage by limiting the upfront damage that is currently possible at range while giving alpha strikes that up close and personal oh **** button option.

[Cimarb]

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

yeah its not a good solution. we still have pinpoint alpha and its still broken...

the only acceptable fix is to make ppcs do splash damage and autocannons burst fire. damage needs to get spread out more across multiple locations.

That is my preferred approach, yes, but not the only acceptable one. I'm not a hard liner, lol. For instance, while I think PPCs should get a stream/spread effect, I would be fine with it being an exception (like the Gauss) if needed, as it's only 10 damage and a huge amount of heat already.

I also think that making the cooldown for all ballistics equal (2.5 seconds or so) and making their damage half of their rating (1/2.5/5/10) would be a good way to bring them in line also. That is still twice the TT amount, but they are at least normalized.

[Joseph Mallan]

WarHippy, on 07 January 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

I really like this idea. It cuts down on the ranged damage by limiting the upfront damage that is currently possible at range while giving alpha strikes that up close and personal oh **** button option.

Except in my way of saying it its that up close and personal RAWR button!

[Khobai]

Quote

Break up Alpha Strikes by adding a CoF.

The problem with CoF is that it introduces RNG into the game. Hitting someone in a specific location at long range becomes a dice roll rather than being a testament of skill. Thats why CoF is a poor solution IMO.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The problem with CoF is that it introduces RNG into the game. Hitting someone in a specific location at long range becomes a dice roll rather than being a testament of skill. Thats why CoF is a poor solution IMO.

ONLY WHEN ALPHA STRIKING!!! I Dare someone to fire 3-6 weapons at once and hit a single dinner plate a 600M! Gimme a U-Tube of this happening from ANYWHERE!

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 January 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Except in my way of saying it its that up close and personal RAWR button!

This makes me want to have the option to name our weapon groups.

[Cimarb]

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The problem with CoF is that it introduces RNG into the game. Hitting someone in a specific location at long range becomes a dice roll rather than being a testament of skill. Thats why CoF is a poor solution IMO.

While I do agree about not wanting a cone of fire implemented, I don't think you should be doing an alpha at long range either. The problem with a CoF solution is that it doesn't fix the front-loaded damage issue any more than ghost heat did (hint, it didn't), and affects lots of other builds that honestly don't need "fixed", just like ghost heats did. Implementation is important, so I'm not saying some sort of convergence/CoF wouldn't be helpful, but I haven't saw anything regarding it to make me think it would help, especially considering the HSR/server issues that are related to it.

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 January 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

ONLY WHEN ALPHA STRIKING!!! I Dare someone to fire 3-6 weapons at once and hit a single dinner plate a 600M! Gimme a U-Tube of this happening from ANYWHERE!

Can I mount the weapons on a stationary platform with a pull string? Hmm, I may need to pick up a couple more M1 Garands so I can try this out.

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

yeah its not a good solution. we still have pinpoint alpha and its still broken...

the only acceptable fix is to make ppcs do splash damage and autocannons burst fire. damage needs to get spread out more across multiple locations.

Well pack up your Bronze badge dude. We are way past the "change the whole convergence mechanic" for the forseeable future.

[WarHippy]

Cimarb, on 07 January 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

While I do agree about not wanting a cone of fire implemented, I don't think you should be doing an alpha at long range either. The problem with a CoF solution is that it doesn't fix the front-loaded damage issue any more than ghost heat did (hint, it didn't), and affects lots of other builds that honestly don't need "fixed", just like ghost heats did. Implementation is important, so I'm not saying some sort of convergence/CoF wouldn't be helpful, but I haven't saw anything regarding it to make me think it would help, especially considering the HSR/server issues that are related to it.

Well, they would need to be careful in how they implemented it, and they would need to spend some time making sure they found the right amount of spread in a CoF solution but I think it could work.

[Almond Brown]

WarHippy, on 07 January 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Well, they would need to be careful in how they implemented it, and they would need to spend some time making sure they found the right amount of spread in a CoF solution but I think it could work.

The player base cares not for careful or has TIME to wait for SFA. They want it now, and they want it changed back tomorrow if their rather grand ideas do not turn out like their minute brains thought it would while lying in bed dreaming wet Mech dreams.

So no, careful implementation, despite what the whiners say, is being done now. Spending time doing it slow and proper, is way better than having weeks of "make-no" game play, just to please a few who would think that they actually know better.

Carry on PGI. The whiners are not going anywhere, or they would have left long ago according to themselves.

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 January 2014 - 12:25 PM.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 January 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

ONLY WHEN ALPHA STRIKING!!! I Dare someone to fire 3-6 weapons at once and hit a single dinner plate a 600M! Gimme a U-Tube of this happening from ANYWHERE!

Why would you not be able to shoot 4-6 medium lasers and hit together? My sniper Phract has two AC2 and two AC5 that is shoot together - should I not be accurate with that, as it is the point of the weapons to begin with?

My issue with anything regarding "alphas" is that it is based on the number of weapons, usually of a specific type. That is why we now have 2xPPC/2xERPPC builds instead of 4xPPC builds - it didn't fix anything, it just forced players to use different versions of the same weapon to avoid it. It is an over complicated system that adds a penalty many people will not even understand (or even notice, other than missing a lot).

On top of that, what is the threshold that counts as an alpha? If it means "firing everything at once", then just add a small laser or MG and make sure it isn't in any of your weapon groups. If it means firing 4 of this, then just have 3 of this and 1 of kinda-this to avoid the penalty.

Instead, why not just incorporate a burst fire mechanic that would do the same damage as it already does, but spread over a slightly larger space/time like all of the other various weapon systems? Pulse lasers are very distinct from normal lasers, and so would burst-fire ACs be, especially with varied manufacturer quirks.

[Lyoto Machida]

Cimarb, on 07 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Why would you not be able to shoot 4-6 medium lasers and hit together? My sniper Phract has two AC2 and two AC5 that is shoot together - should I not be accurate with that, as it is the point of the weapons to begin with?

My issue with anything regarding "alphas" is that it is based on the number of weapons, usually of a specific type. That is why we now have 2xPPC/2xERPPC builds instead of 4xPPC builds - it didn't fix anything, it just forced players to use different versions of the same weapon to avoid it. It is an over complicated system that adds a penalty many people will not even understand (or even notice, other than missing a lot).

On top of that, what is the threshold that counts as an alpha? If it means "firing everything at once", then just add a small laser or MG and make sure it isn't in any of your weapon groups. If it means firing 4 of this, then just have 3 of this and 1 of kinda-this to avoid the penalty.

Instead, why not just incorporate a burst fire mechanic that would do the same damage as it already does, but spread over a slightly larger space/time like all of the other various weapon systems? Pulse lasers are very distinct from normal lasers, and so would burst-fire ACs be, especially with varied manufacturer quirks.

That doesn't even make sense. Who uses a 2x PPC / 2x ERPPC build nowadays? You know that ERPPCs and PPCs are in the same group for ghost heat, right?

For that matter...who even uses ERPPCs anymore???

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Break up Alpha Strikes by adding a CoF. You want accuracy fire your weapons in Chain mode or single fire. If I wanna Alpha I should be willing to sacrifice some accuracy o get it. That should be acceptable.

Love it, alphas mess with convergence, take down the 3x range and I think we'd have an excellent balance on them!!!! Great idea Joe!

WarHippy, on 07 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

This makes me want to have the option to name our weapon groups.

As long as I can rename all of the to my fellow forumites I'd love it

[Cimarb]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 January 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

That doesn't even make sense. Who uses a 2x PPC / 2x ERPPC build nowadays? You know that ERPPCs and PPCs are in the same group for ghost heat, right?

For that matter...who even uses ERPPCs anymore???

I see them all the time, actually. Apparently they aren't aware of the grouping either - maybe if the system actually made sense, us dum people would know better...

[Sandpit]

Lyoto Machida, on 07 January 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

That doesn't even make sense. Who uses a 2x PPC / 2x ERPPC build nowadays? You know that ERPPCs and PPCs are in the same group for ghost heat, right?

For that matter...who even uses ERPPCs anymore???

I run into them on a daily basis actually.