157 replies to this topic

[Jack of Shades]

Well folks,

I don't really know if this is the right place to say it, but let me say it.

On the one hand, I like the game. It is stylish, and it is not just a shooter - it takes a lot of coordination and planning.

However, there is a lot of frustration coming out of this.

It is essentially a TEAM game.

Means : team work is paramount. And I think this is good. BUT: in the current state of game's interface there is totally NOT ENOUGH tools to organize the team, the squad work.

A single, non-coordinated warrior in the field is a "free kill" or at least an easy target. Okay, one might say "join the pre-made groups".

But this requires a lot of hassle to do OUTSIDE of the game. Not good.

Currently I can see if the team is about to win or to loose by just looking at how people behave - whether most of the team understand "by default" what do to and where to go, or not. A single fight takes about 5-10 minutes, and by the first 2 minutes it becomes pretty obvious what an outcome should likely be..

Concentration of fire, taking the beneficial positions (and not just YOU, single player, but the team) resolves the outcome much before the fight is over. Balancing of attack squads, too.

But the game interface almost totally LACKS the tools to arrange the fight "the intelligent" way.

You hit "launch" then you have only few seconds to say something or to try to take the command, which in fact does not matter. The fight goes so fast so when it's started one barely has any time to look at the big map, not even to follow or issue meaningful orders.

Plus there is certainly a team balancing issue. As far as I understand, the teams get balanced by counting the mech types, not by the firepower or experience or upgrades or number of "pre-made" lances.

So this is what I think that has to be done ( this is not a "cure all" recipe, tho )

When a player hits the "launch" button the game should NOT assign him to a certain playfield at once ( and only then "kinda balance" things out ).

The game must present some sort of "lobby" screen that allows to form attack lances following commanders, to ask for the certain mech types which are required, and communicate about the roles and strategies. Of course, [providing the option to avoid that stage for "instant action".

But for serious gaming there must be a place and option to arrange squads, or lances BEFORE the map is assigned and the action starts. That has to be IN GAME and available to everybody every time, not just the for the pre-existing "friend groups". And no fixed numbers, lance can be from 2 to, say, 6. Or even 12 ( the wait time for matching full-twelve could be much longer, so let the players decide .. )

Bottom line, if the player does not select "instant action", the action and the map should start only after the lances are formed by commanders and they hit the "go for it" button. Something like this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In short: we need a much more advanced "lobby" or "arrangement screen" before the action, and secondly - the balancing has to take into account the teams' total of unlocks and upgrades ( "experience" and "monetary values" of participating mechs)

Thanks for reading.

[Jack of Shades]

To follow this on...

I think that commander's interface should not be arranged "by lances". It has to be arranged task-wise and type-wise.

Means : commander should be able to issue quick orders like "lights go there", "heavies stay here", "scouts search this area", "make the defense line at this square" etc.

Not the stupid "Bravo move, Charlie go".

At the moment the meaningful commanding is impossible unless one is in the pre-made group with voice team-speak ( and not necessarily everybody in your group speak you language, BTW )

[Dock Steward]

UI 2.0 is coming. With it, and shortly after it's release, the ability to organize a team pre-game will change drastically. If you would like more information, please see any Dev thread from the past three months.

[Jack of Shades]

That would be cool, indeed.

I just want to emphasize:

(a) Squads (lances) gotta be arranged meaningfully, BEFORE the drop-off

( The relative power of whole squads and teams gotta be estimated in the match-making process, not just the "type matching"

(c) Commander(s) gotta have the in-game interface to issue meaningful orders to mech types and roles, FAST way ( if it takes more than 5 seconds, its a waste of time)

PS yeah and pls don't do that "It's a BETA thing" or "They shall certainly improve it, believe me". I've played too many games to appreciate the TALKS of dev's...

[Zerberus]

Like most here, I agree with teh OP on basic principle.

BUt:

Jack of Shades, on 24 December 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

A single, non-coordinated warrior in the field is a "free kill" or at least an easy target. Okay, one might say "join the pre-made groups".

But this requires a lot of hassle to do OUTSIDE of the game. Not good.

this is, with all due respect, where I fall over laughing uncontrollably. Please allow me to explain why:

1. It almost takes longer to type "teamspeak" into google than it does to download and install the application, and I`d estimate that 90%+ of the people that would dare refer to themselves as "serious gamers" had both TS (or Mumble, Ventrilo, Skype, who cares..) and a functioning microphone /headset long before they ever even heard of MWO much less downloaded it.

2. You have allready found the official forums. There are literally dozens of posts by House units, Merc Corps, Clans, and even lone wolves offering the use of a TS server at no obligation. But these are in the Faction Forums, not the Gameplay Balance /Whine of the Day forums.

Once conected to one of these various servers, finding a group is usually as easy as choosing a room withless than 4 people, entering , saying "hi, can I play" and accepting the group invite.

It is a one time investment of 1-2 minutes to select a server from the numerous offerings and copy /paste teh address and PW into the VoIP application, a 5 second investment to save it to your favorites, and a recurring 5 serond investment every time you start the game to reconnect.

The day something that takes less than 2 minutes is a "hassle" is the day I stop drinking coffee becasue my life is apparently moving significantly faster than I am.

I mean no Ill will to you, but there`s always this underlying sentiment in these threads that it`s unbelievably hard to double click an Icon and put on a headset so as to be able to join an "evil premade"... But if it`s so hard then why do literally millions of people have absolutely zero problems doing it for 8-10 hours every day for years at a time?

Again, I understand the actual point of the thread and do agree... but all statements like that do are prove just how lazy people have become while at the same time perpetuating the hate towards people that are in fact doing absolutely nothing wrong.

Edited by Zerberus, 24 December 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

A lot of occupiers here will tell you that teamspeak is the way to go. My opinion differs. I say pug and learn hard and when you start scoring well as a pug move up to team play. My reasoning is simple. Most premades are not all that good and they are dependent on each other and comms. Had a glorious day this summer when for some reason the voip servers were inconsistent. Throughout the day we randomly cleaned the clocks of regular premades and only the good players stood out.
Pugs had pretty even matches that day and I found that pugs being more independent and looking for clues on team movement did well when no one had comm advantage.

Of course the usual crowd will tell you otherwise but check their names against 12v full team matches. You will never see them there. That's the key.

Take the road less traveled and you will be better for it.

[Jack of Shades]

In fact, I kinda dislike VoIP for number of reasons. That's true. To give an example, I played one of the Battlefield series, with voice com built-in, and still it was not tremendously useful. For number of reasons : - some people don't speak English (or your language), - voice quality far from perfect, - different accents even if most players do speak English, etc.

Last but not the least, most players still don't freaking listen anyway or do not understand what do you want them to do without elaborate explaining. Then the match ends, bamm! - new teams, new people and it all goes again.

But Battlefield HAS a functional commander interface and system of commands, so that voice com isn't the only way to co-ordinate ( though it is built in, too )

In here we have a ridiculous situation, where while the game is intended for quick drop-in and fight action, effectively it REQUIRES out-of-game social part to be played "The Right Way" according to its mechanics.

And even the option for out-of-game socializing and organizing is a poor excuse for the fact that a Tactical Squad-based game has NO usable tactical and squad interfaces.

Instead of working towards providing enjoyable game experience for both "hardcore" clan warriors and "casual" lone wolves, the company is out for cash trying to sell the stuff which is basically "electronic collectibles", or "vapourware".

Hey, I have a suggestion for them PGI guys. Make good Squad-managing and Tactical interfaces, and offer them for one-time charge ( comparable to a boxed game purchase ). Whoever is concerned about tactical gameplay would appreciate the tools which are really useful, and whoever wants to play it "cheap and simple" still would be able to follow commands and leaders the meaningful way.

[Deathlike]

Mudhutwarrior, on 24 December 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Most premades are not all that good

That's not accurate. It depends on the group composition. It can be a bunch of newbies just as much as it is a bunch of veterans of this game.

Quote

and they are dependent on each other and comms.

That's also grossly inaccurate. There's something to passing important info to one another, but it doesn't actually REPLACE skill or intelligence.

Quote

Had a glorious day this summer when for some reason the voip servers were inconsistent. Throughout the day we randomly cleaned the clocks of regular premades and only the good players stood out.

TBH, I think you're grossly overestimating your own skill.

Quote

Pugs had pretty even matches that day and I found that pugs being more independent and looking for clues on team movement did well when no one had comm advantage.

That unfortunately doesn't always happen, as some people feel like "doing their own thing" and tend to get killed on their own and occasionally blame others for not following them (and they usually tell nobody and/or never notice that their teammates are nowhere near themselves on radar).

Quote

Of course the usual crowd will tell you otherwise but check their names against 12v full team matches. You will never see them there. That's the key.

If only the stories were true oh great storyteller.

Quote

Take the road less traveled and you will be better for it.

That assumes a lot.

[Sandpit]

Jack of Shades, on 24 December 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Well folks,

I don't really know if this is the right place to say it, but let me say it.

On the one hand, I like the game. It is stylish, and it is not just a shooter - it takes a lot of coordination and planning.

However, there is a lot of frustration coming out of this.

It is essentially a TEAM game.

Means : team work is paramount. And I think this is good. BUT: in the current state of game's interface there is totally NOT ENOUGH tools to organize the team, the squad work.

A single, non-coordinated warrior in the field is a "free kill" or at least an easy target. Okay, one might say "join the pre-made groups".

But this requires a lot of hassle to do OUTSIDE of the game. Not good.

Currently I can see if the team is about to win or to loose by just looking at how people behave - whether most of the team understand "by default" what do to and where to go, or not. A single fight takes about 5-10 minutes, and by the first 2 minutes it becomes pretty obvious what an outcome should likely be..

Concentration of fire, taking the beneficial positions (and not just YOU, single player, but the team) resolves the outcome much before the fight is over. Balancing of attack squads, too.

But the game interface almost totally LACKS the tools to arrange the fight "the intelligent" way.

You hit "launch" then you have only few seconds to say something or to try to take the command, which in fact does not matter. The fight goes so fast so when it's started one barely has any time to look at the big map, not even to follow or issue meaningful orders.

Plus there is certainly a team balancing issue. As far as I understand, the teams get balanced by counting the mech types, not by the firepower or experience or upgrades or number of "pre-made" lances.

So this is what I think that has to be done ( this is not a "cure all" recipe, tho )

When a player hits the "launch" button the game should NOT assign him to a certain playfield at once ( and only then "kinda balance" things out ).

The game must present some sort of "lobby" screen that allows to form attack lances following commanders, to ask for the certain mech types which are required, and communicate about the roles and strategies. Of course, [providing the option to avoid that stage for "instant action".

But for serious gaming there must be a place and option to arrange squads, or lances BEFORE the map is assigned and the action starts. That has to be IN GAME and available to everybody every time, not just the for the pre-existing "friend groups". And no fixed numbers, lance can be from 2 to, say, 6. Or even 12 ( the wait time for matching full-twelve could be much longer, so let the players decide .. )

Bottom line, if the player does not select "instant action", the action and the map should start only after the lances are formed by commanders and they hit the "go for it" button. Something like this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In short: we need a much more advanced "lobby" or "arrangement screen" before the action, and secondly - the balancing has to take into account the teams' total of unlocks and upgrades ( "experience" and "monetary values" of participating mechs)

Thanks for reading.

You do know that you can form a group in the game by hitting your social tab right? Form a group in game and chat about the mechs you're going to bring....

[Revorn]

Pugs vs Pugs only MatcheMode.

[Sandpit]

Revorn, on 25 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Pugs vs Pugs only MatcheMode.

That's not now, nor ever been the way lone wolves were intended to be integrated. They're here to fill holes in matches. That means if everyone is a PUG then everyone is a pug. If a few 4 mans need slots filled (which will soon be even more needed with group restrictions coming off) then lone wolves fill those slots.

What really needs to happen? Players need to stop blaming the "premade boogeyman" for their losses. It's not a premades fault you lose. Not to mention that if there's a premade on one side there's a premade on the other. It evens out. You're not losing games or getting stomped because "premades touched me in a bad place". You're losing and getting stomped because of teamwork. Teamwork has NOTHING to do with premade or pug.

Teamwork has to do with being a team and working together as such. It has to do with actually doign things like focusing fire, sticking together, holding locks for lrm boats, situational awarenes, etc.
Nowhere in there is voip an issue. The only and I mean ONLY advantage voip users have is being able to communicate a bit faster when things start happening.

Premades get rolled just as often as pugs do. The fact that you won't admit or understand this is the problem, not the fact that there's 4 man teams running around in your game. Until the OP and players like the OP realize this, they'll continue getting stomped, complaining about premades, and looking for every reason they get stomped other than "maybe my team just wasn't playing very well"

[Tynan]

Sandpit, on 25 December 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

That's not now, nor ever been the way lone wolves were intended to be integrated. They're here to fill holes in matches. That means if everyone is a PUG then everyone is a pug. If a few 4 mans need slots filled (which will soon be even more needed with group restrictions coming off) then lone wolves fill those slots.

What really needs to happen? Players need to stop blaming the "premade boogeyman" for their losses. It's not a premades fault you lose. Not to mention that if there's a premade on one side there's a premade on the other. It evens out. You're not losing games or getting stomped because "premades touched me in a bad place". You're losing and getting stomped because of teamwork. Teamwork has NOTHING to do with premade or pug.

Teamwork has to do with being a team and working together as such. It has to do with actually doign things like focusing fire, sticking together, holding locks for lrm boats, situational awarenes, etc.
Nowhere in there is voip an issue. The only and I mean ONLY advantage voip users have is being able to communicate a bit faster when things start happening.

Premades get rolled just as often as pugs do. The fact that you won't admit or understand this is the problem, not the fact that there's 4 man teams running around in your game. Until the OP and players like the OP realize this, they'll continue getting stomped, complaining about premades, and looking for every reason they get stomped other than "maybe my team just wasn't playing very well"

This, exactly this. So, so many times I've seen people blame premades for their loss, both on teams I've been on and opposing teams, when it's very clearly not the case. I've been called out personally when I've been lone wolf (which I am roughly half the time, rest I'm only in a duo). It's like...sometimes you just suck. Sometimes the other guys are just better and work together better, even while pugging and without voice coms. It's not always premades.

Hell, half the time I drop with a premade they're doing some goofy locust swarm joke drop anyway.

[Jack of Shades]

Sandpit, on 25 December 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

You do know that you can form a group in the game by hitting your social tab right? Form a group in game and chat about the mechs you're going to bring....

You know, I don't really want to CHAT. The "social tab" is {Scrap}. I want the interface where experienced commanders form their groups, then the combat value of each group is fairly estimated, then (most importantly!) the groups and lances and single players can operate together using the "combat interface". ( which at the moment does not exist at all )"Operate together", not "chat" - English, #### do you understand it?

[Jack of Shades]

Tynan, on 25 December 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

This, exactly this. So, so many times I've seen people blame premades for their loss, both on teams I've been on and opposing teams, when it's very clearly not the case. I've been called out personally when I've been lone wolf (which I am roughly half the time, rest I'm only in a duo). It's like...sometimes you just suck. Sometimes the other guys are just better and work together better, even while pugging and without voice coms. It's not always premades.
Hell, half the time I drop with a premade they're doing some goofy locust swarm joke drop anyway.

"Elite Founder", "Overlord" ... c'mon. Simple fact is this : for 90% of matches, the outcome is obvious the first 1 or 2 minutes. With relatively rare exceptions of win by score and by capture. Unless that rare thing happens, the rest 5-10 minutes is just a slaughter. Not freaking fun.Now just give it a thought, why.

[Tynan]

Jack of Shades, on 25 December 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

"Elite Founder", "Overlord" ... c'mon. Simple fact is this : for 90% of matches, the outcome is obvious the first 1 or 2 minutes. With relatively rare exceptions of win by score and by capture. Unless that rare thing happens, the rest 5-10 minutes is just a slaughter. Not freaking fun.Now just give it a thought, why.

We're clearly not playing the same matches. There are some facerolls, obviously, but most matches I play are roughly seven minutes total, and usually not a foregone conclusion until four - five minutes in. The last two minutes are some spider running and crying, usually.

Matches are shorter, on balance, than they used to be, but that's largely a result of the rolling steel-ball-of-death and high alpha that most people are playing. Sure, it's not fun, but it's a design problem, not because you got roflstomped by a premade.

[Sandpit]

Jack of Shades, on 25 December 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

You know, I don't really want to CHAT. The "social tab" is {Scrap}. I want the interface where experienced commanders form their groups, then the combat value of each group is fairly estimated, then (most importantly!) the groups and lances and single players can operate together using the "combat interface". ( which at the moment does not exist at all )"Operate together", not "chat" - English, #### do you understand it?

Then don't chat. You can still form a group. You can also find euro servers just like you can find non-english forum sections. It's not rocket science. Your post is exactly what's wrong with all these "premades are evil and ruining the game" threads

Use TS and find some pugs to play with on there
"I dont' wanna"

Use the in-game function of forming a group
"I don't wanna"

Use your in-game chat to coordinate with your other teamates
"I don't wanna"

..............
"Premades made me lose"

Well guess what? You're not the only players in this game. I don't "wanna" not be able to play with my unit. I don't "wanna" have to search and search and search just to find a game simply because some people are too anti-social to click a few buttons. So go be a pug, be a lone wolf, that's what that option is there for. Don't, I repeat, DON'T blame me for your poor teamwork and coordination that leads to losses regardless of premades or pugs

Jack of Shades, on 25 December 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

"Elite Founder", "Overlord" ... c'mon. Simple fact is this : for 90% of matches, the outcome is obvious the first 1 or 2 minutes. With relatively rare exceptions of win by score and by capture. Unless that rare thing happens, the rest 5-10 minutes is just a slaughter. Not freaking fun.Now just give it a thought, why.

And that has what to do with premades? Nothing.

[3endless8oogie]

Sandpit, on 25 December 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

"premades are evil and ruining the game"

Not "evil" just bad for ingame balance.

[Sandpit]

3endless8oogie, on 25 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Not "evil" just bad for ingame balance.

neither. again, premades have little to nothing to do with your team getting stomped

[MerryIguana]

Sandpit, on 25 December 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Teamwork has NOTHING to do with premade or pug.

I was with you till you said this. Then i started laughing. Merry christmas!

[Joseph Mallan]

3endless8oogie, on 25 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Not "evil" just bad for ingame balance.

To quote a long time gaming friend of mine once said, "They're not evil, just misunderstood."

3endless8oogie, on 25 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Not "evil" just bad for ingame balance.

Yes Teams are very bad for a team oriented game!