157 replies to this topic

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

It stops the complaining not the stomps because premades aren't the underlying problem

Well the assumption is that with more granularity in matchmaking (since solo players provide more flexibility), players will be matched against other players of closer Elo scores (because MM doesn't have to use an aggregate of grouped players' Elo scores).

There's always going to be stomps, but at least in a solo-only queue they will be less often and when they do happen players can rest easy knowing it's not because the other team had any any "unfair" advantages.



If anything, I'd love to see this done as an experiment to prove my theory.

[Ghogiel]

Bhael Fire, on 02 January 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Well the assumption is that with more granularity in matchmaking (since solo players provide more flexibility), players will be matched against other players of closer Elo scores (because MM doesn't have to use an aggregate of grouped players' Elo scores).

There's always going to be stomps, but at least in a solo-only queue they will be less often and when they do happen players can rest easy knowing it's not because the other team had any any "unfair" advantages.



If anything, I'd love to see this done as an experiment to prove my theory.

Splitting the queue again only decreases the pool the MM can pick from and may not really give you any improvements over MMs current ability. Unless of course the 2-4 man group function is either intentionally removed or unintentionally crippled due to splitting the queue and everyone just plays solo.

The 2-4 man group function requires solo players to fill in spots for it to work.

In fact if master race evilpremades are as the oppressed downtrodden say, everyone wants to stomp and wants to play ezmode, ie solo players want this fabled ezmode, then a split solo queue will negatively impact the team aspect of the game, and thus be a dumbing down of it to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Good news is the exact opposite is going to happen Team play is going to be encouraged. Lobbies and all that jazz is 'planned' and eventually should solve the cries of solo players.

[Triordinant]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Lol
Because maybe just maybe the devs know more than you do?
Maybe just maybe the devs who have the factual data and exact numbers on everything already know?

Are we talking about the same Devs responsible for 3rd person view, ghost heat, ECM, weapon balancing and matchmaking? I have no doubt they have the data; they just don't know how to act upon it correctly.

[Bhael Fire]

Ghogiel, on 02 January 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Splitting the queue again only decreases the pool the MM can pick from and may not really give you any improvements over MMs current ability. Unless of course the 2-4 man group function is either intentionally removed or unintentionally crippled due to splitting the queue and everyone just plays solo.

The 2-4 man group function requires solo players to fill in spots for it to work.

I'm 100% positive that offering a solo-only queue would improve solo play.

However, I'd be curious to see how big of a performance hit the grouped+solo queue would take in doing so. It would depend on how many solo players would still opt in to play against grouped players if they had the option to play against solo players. It's entirely possible that any anticipated negative effects would be negligible.

Let's just say I think it'd be a interesting experiment and I'd love for them to test it out. Even if the solo-only queue was exempt from CW or it was part of a separate game mode, I think it would be worthwhile.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 02 January 2014 - 05:15 PM.

[Sandpit]

So you don't think there are veteran pilots that pug and will mop the floor with new players and would actually happen more often because of small pools to pull from?

Or that the min/max kdr crowd won't synch drop with buddies as pugs so they can buff their kdr and newb hunt?

Or that somehow a solo queue wouldn't just destroy the overall way cw will work?

Solo queues are not the solution because pug vs. premade isn't the problem

[Zerberus]

Revorn, on 31 December 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Pug only vs Pug only Mode.

And then the evil boogeyman that makes all PUGS lose constantly will be constant illusions of facing organized 12 man Sync-drops, regardless of whether it`s technically feasible (or even realistically possible) or not. The whole "evil 8 man sync drops" rhetoric is nothing but the light version of that.

Terribads will remain terribads until they accept their own actions as part of the problem, period. But until then, they will also always find someone else to blame.

Edited by Zerberus, 02 January 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

So you don't think there are veteran pilots that pug and will mop the floor with new players and would actually happen more often because of small pools to pull from?

Or that the min/max kdr crowd won't synch drop with buddies as pugs so they can buff their kdr and newb hunt?

Or that somehow a solo queue wouldn't just destroy the overall way cw will work?

Solo queues are not the solution because pug vs. premade isn't the problem

1. Yes, but they'd be matched against other solo veterans with nearly identical Elo scores. Sync dropping would be significantly less effective because the MM would individual Elo scores instead of aggregate Elo scores.

2. The solo queue could be a separate game mode apart from CW.

3. Your opinion. Valid opinion, but an opinion just the same. I think if they tested this, the results would be positive. At least for solo players, anyway. That's why I'd to see it tested to see if it had any negative effect on the grouped+solo queue.

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 02 January 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

1. Yes, but they'd be matched against other solo veterans with nearly identical Elo scores. Sync dropping would be significantly less effective because the MM would individual Elo scores instead of aggregate Elo scores.

2. The solo queue could be a separate game mode apart from CW.

3. Your opinion. Valid opinion, but an opinion just the same. I think if they tested this, the results would be positive. At least for solo players, anyway. That's why I'd to see it tested to see if it had any negative effect on the grouped+solo queue.

1 . you mean the way premades are matched to both sides now?

2. There is no separate mode and even if that were implemented everything I just said about splitting the queues increasing launch times and creating chaos with cw holds true

3. Yes it's my opinion based on the things they HAVE done to nerf groups and such

I appreciate the sentiment about mitigating stomps but until new players are introduced in a different way and educated better on the steep learning curve it won't stop

[Ghogiel]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

1 . you mean the way premades are matched to both sides now?

Dev quote please

[Mawai]

Sandpit, on 25 December 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

neither. again, premades have little to nothing to do with your team getting stomped

Well ... that isn't quite true. I was in a drop which included a 3x ddc +1 steiner group in another lance that coordinated and focused fire and certainly made a significant difference in affecting the outcome of the match. Now the other team also had a pre-made group that was very effective so the game ended up 12-7 but premades certainly do contribute to some of the stomps I have seen.

This is also because pre-mades will usually be more efficient at taking advantage of mistakes and local numerical advantages due to improved communications.

However, pre-mades are not a bogey man that is responsible for every stomp ... most uneven results are more often due to individual mistakes and some team tactical errors that give the opponents an advantage in mechs followed by local numerical and mech superiority as they take advantage of the positions of the opposing forces on the field ... but saying that pre-mades aren't a factor is taking the discussion a little too far in the other direction.

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

1 . you mean the way premades are matched to both sides now?

2. There is no separate mode and even if that were implemented everything I just said about splitting the queues increasing launch times and creating chaos with cw holds true

3. Yes it's my opinion based on the things they HAVE done to nerf groups and such

I like this numbered Q&A format.

1. No. Granularity is a huge factor in how solo queues work. When players are in groups it makes it harder for the MM to place players in balanced matches. That's why it doesn't matter if there's premades on each side, because with grouped players you're getting a grab-bag of various Elo scores that are averaged together. That leads to wonky, off-balanced matches. In a solo-only queue, MM has an easier time placing individual Elo scores against each other so that there's less disparity.

2. They recently split the queues by adding Skirmish mode and it's had a negligible effect on wait times. I doubt that if they added a solo-only game mode it would be any different. As for CW, the mode could easily be worked into it or simply ignored (Lone Wolf only mode?).

3. Solo players would still be added to the grouped+solo queue if they didn't specifically select the "Solo-Only" queue. As for "nerfing" grouped players, that is a completely moot point since without actually testing the effects of a solo-only queue on grouped+solo queues there's no way to be sure how it would affect it.

That's why I think it would be worth the effort in testing it out.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 02 January 2014 - 07:35 PM.

[Sandpit]

Ghogiel, on 02 January 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Dev quote please

No, simply because I'm not on a computer and searching that up would be a royal pain at the moment plus while I understand the skepticism and wanting verification it gets tiring being a librarian lol

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 02 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

I like this numbered Q&A format.

1. No. Granularity is a huge factor in how solo queues work. When players are in groups it makes it harder for the MM to place players in balanced matches. That's why it doesn't matter if there's premades on each side, because with grouped players you're getting a grab-bag of various Elo scores that are averaged together. That leads to wonky, off-balanced matches. In a solo-only queue, MM has an easier time placing individual Elo scores against each other so that there's less disparity.

2. They recently split the queues by adding Skirmish mode and it's had a negligible effect on wait times. I doubt that if they added a solo-only game mode it would be any different. As for CW, the mode could easily be worked into it or simply ignored (Lone Wolf only mode?).

3. Solo players would still be added to the grouped+solo queue if they didn't specifically select the "Solo-Only" queue. As for "nerfing" grouped players, that is a completely moot point since without actually testing the effects of a solo-only queue on grouped+solo queues there's no way to be sure how it would affect it.

That's why I think it would be worth the effort in testing it out.

Me too! Lol
1. I agree that groups throw off the Elo but that still doesn't solve the stomps. New players having their own queues would be a much better solution. Again with a smaller player pool to pull from you will see the stomps continue because the fewer players means those top end players have fewer options for placement so they still get dropped in with players that are out of their personal skill level

2. That's a completely different issue. You added a queue without forcing a segregation of the others. Any still places and pulls from the entire population. A solo-only queue pulls that entire portion from CW essentially. Lone wolves always have been meant to help fill player slots to fill out the game

3. I obviously can't argue that because we both have nothing more than our biased views based on our anecdotal evidence but I still believe it would wreak havoc with cw and launch times while not solving the stomps

[Ghogiel]

Sandpit, on 02 January 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

No, simply because I'm not on a computer and searching that up would be a royal pain at the moment plus while I understand the skepticism and wanting verification it gets tiring being a librarian lol

What is it in some obscure twitter post or something?

[Sandpit]

Ghogiel, on 02 January 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

What is it in some obscure twitter post or something?

No it's here on the forums somewhere it would be back quite a bit tho if memory serves

[Mudhutwarrior]

Stop with the "Evil Premades"

Its a ploy to make any argument and emotional one. Full on Edward Bernays tactics you have learned well from the scum bags in DC and Madison Ave.


This has nothing to do with premades but instead the structure they drop into.

You should all be smart enough to understand that over time emotional wedges lose effectiveness and boomerang on those using them. Usually with disastrous results.

[Sandpit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 03 January 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

Stop with the "Evil Premades"

Its a ploy to make any argument and emotional one. Full on Edward Bernays tactics you have learned well from the scum bags in DC and Madison Ave.


This has nothing to do with premades but instead the structure they drop into.

You should all be smart enough to understand that over time emotional wedges lose effectiveness and boomerang on those using them. Usually with disastrous results.

[Sandpit]

Mudhutwarrior, on 21 December 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

You miss the point. Teams are 12 men. Not 8 with 4 on another channel ignoring the rest. Its such a lie to call it a team game as it stands. I am all for team play and pull for the team I drop with. But calling it a team game when its not is just covering the sores. When Pugs drop with teams the usual result is either its a lousy team playing independently and you lose or its a crack team and your lucky to get a shot off. I just dropped with an 8 man in an atlas. By the time I got to the fight I got two 800 mtr shots off on the last man standing. It was over in less than two minutes. They only typing done was GG at the end.

Good Game? for who? Just the guys with comms. The rest were useless or slaughtered,

Far from a team game. More like sorority girls with rabies.

That's just one example. If I were at a pc I would happily dig back through your post history and pull up multiple examples of YOUR evil premade rhetoric sir
Sororities
Unskilled
Keeping the news down
So just stop interrupting useful idea exchange to insert your agendas
Integrated voip has been sorely needed since cb
Now you can stop

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

That's just one example. If I were at a pc I would happily dig back through your post history and pull up multiple examples of YOUR evil premade rhetoric sir
Sororities
Unskilled
Keeping the news down
So just stop interrupting useful idea exchange to insert your agendas
Integrated voip has been sorely needed since cb
Now you can stop

You can take any quote out of context to suit your agenda. Problem is you have turned your posting into a joke by now to the point most everyone knows what sandpits gig is. I suggest you troll reddit or the Star forums for posts about you.
Your reputation precedes you and it isn't what you think it should be. But thanks for the laughs anyways.

[Henry Morgan]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

That's just one example. If I were at a pc I would happily dig back through your post history and pull up multiple examples of YOUR evil premade rhetoric sir
Sororities
Unskilled
Keeping the news down
So just stop interrupting useful idea exchange to insert your agendas
Integrated voip has been sorely needed since cb
Now you can stop

Ah, the "out of context" excuse. Funny how he likes to refer to posts he made that were later deleted by a Forum Mod as "out of context" or "never happened". Don't forget those posts as well. My favorite ones (that got deleted) were when he was boasting about not spending any money on the game, and never would. And that he had no intention of sticking around long term, and was only in the game until his boat was finished.

Or the one where he was denying his in-game behavior until I posted a screen shot showing just how he acts in game. First it was the "out of context" excuse. That is, until he could go crying to the Forum Mod to get it taken down. Then, once the post was removed, it was "never happened".

Between his behavior in-game, and on the forums, PGI has made it quite clear what sort of "player" they want to keep around. If they have any desire to stay competitive with other companies, they really need to step it up on taking the garbage out. Players like this do more to drive away other players, and negatively impact the bottom line, than any sort of in-game voice will ever do.