147 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

cSand, on 14 January 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

I've realized that if you can be hit by it, someone is on the forums posting about how OP it is.

Never ending cycle. People can't adapt so they ***** and complain. In fact, that applies to the almost everything, not just MWO

Welcome to MWO Forums

[umod47]

OK, let's see.
We take empty SHD-5M with STD 250. It has 24 tons so far.
With AC/10 and 5 tons of ammo, it has 3.32 effective DPS with SHS and 4 DPS with DHS (heat eff 167%). With this loadout, we've spent 41 ton. And this is enough to deal up to 750 dmg or more than 3 minutes of continuous shooting.

Let's see what energy can afford. All energy builds are with DHS (this is obvious).

2xML. The same 10 DMG, but 2.5 DPS. 270 range, which gives almost no chance to run away, and we have to keep the crosshair over the target for quite a time to do anything. But we have only 26 tons so far.
If we had more hardpoints, we could reach 4 DPS with 36 tons and 4xML. Still, we can be outranged easily.

2xLL. Higher damage (18 instead of 10), but we have to fit 44 tons to reach the same DPS. Once again, more accurate aiming required. If we spend 41 tons, we have 3.73 DPS.

1xPPC. We have to spend 32 tons to cool it down and we have 2.42 DPS. But we're helpless when it comes to hand-to-hand combat.

2xPPC. No matter what we do, we can never cool it down completely. With all the slots filled, we have 48 tons, 3.4 DPS with 68% efficency, which means we have to look after heat level and take cover once it's high enough.

1xERPPC. With this thing, we don't have 90m blind range and can outrange almost any weapon, but once again, it's damn too hot. It takes 42 tons with heatsinks, that take up all the space, and we have 2.33 DPS with 93% heat efficency.

You can repeat all this at http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

It appears, that with energy weapon, compared to ballistic, we have either
1) Less DPS with the same weight.
2) More weight with the same DPS.
3) Less weight with the same DPS, but less range because of using medium lasers.

Of course, energy rocks when the battle is long, and ballistic starts to run out of ammo. But this is rarely the case. Still, energy build can hardly fight ballisic build one on one. And, if you use lasers, you have to expose your face to the enemy for a longer time. You can't just shoot and run away. This gives ballistic dude some free shots.

IMHO, energy works for light mechs, as long as they have to hit-and-run-and-cool-down. And it's a fine addition if you have free hardpoints.

[Roland]

umod47, on 17 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

1xERPPC. With this thing, we don't have 90m blind range and can outrange almost any weapon, but once again, it's damn too hot. It takes 42 tons with heatsinks, that take up all the space, and we have 2.33 DPS with 93% heat efficency.

This demonstrates a profound failure to grasp certain fundamental mechanics of the game.

Anyone who actually plays the game knows that a single ERPPC does not require anything approaching 42 tons of weight to run.

I can easily run a single ERPPC using just the 10 heat sinks internal to the engine.

[MustrumRidcully]

Roland, on 18 January 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

This demonstrates a profound failure to grasp certain fundamental mechanics of the game.

Anyone who actually plays the game knows that a single ERPPC does not require anything approaching 42 tons of weight to run.

I can easily run a single ERPPC using just the 10 heat sinks internal to the engine.

10 double heat sinks, you probably mean.

But yes.

If anyone wants to do the "let's compare weight investments for ammo and heat sinks and weapon" game, I have done the frelling math already! See my signature! The answer is not as straightforward as some people want it to be, but it's there, it confirms some suspicions and disproves others.

[umod47]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

10 double heat sinks, you probably mean.

But yes.

If anyone wants to do the "let's compare weight investments for ammo and heat sinks and weapon" game, I have done the frelling math already! See my signature! The answer is not as straightforward as some people want it to be, but it's there, it confirms some suspicions and disproves others.

Yes, you can. I know. But you have to look after your heat level. And when it comes to fight, either you hit-and-hide or die. In case where you can't hide (an ambush. for example), you can hardly offense ballistic. Lower DPS mean you do less damage and die faster. Or you can go full DPS for a limited amount of time, but then - hide. Still, you overheat before doing significant damage, so you have to impose longer fight.

On the other hand, ballistic can just pump out all the damage it has without thinking of anything. Just shoot. They can rush, evade, ambush - anything, as long as ammo is available. But with current short fights, it's not a big problem to take enough.

In particular, when I run either HBK4-SP or CPLT-K2, if I face Blackjack, Jagermech, CTF-4X or other ballistic build, I either hide or die, because I can't do enough damage before overheating. If one of these ambushes me, I'm dead. But if I try to ambush one of them, I still overheat, he turns around and kills me.

I used to face BJ-1 with my HBK. We were just standing and shooting each other from around 200 meters. I had full armor, 4xML, and died without even overheating. And this wasn't a headshot. Damn, he's 5 tons below me and just tears me apart. Either i'm a complete noob, or energy really sucks.

MustrumRidcully, on 18 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

10 double heat sinks, you probably mean.

But yes.

If anyone wants to do the "let's compare weight investments for ammo and heat sinks and weapon" game, I have done the frelling math already! See my signature! The answer is not as straightforward as some people want it to be, but it's there, it confirms some suspicions and disproves others.

This is interesting, thanks. Still, ballistic is point-and-shoot, while energy forces to think and evade. When ballistic is capable of tearing a mech apart and hiding back quiclky, energy can take off some armor and has to hide.

Quote

The assumption is - you don't need to fire forever with any weapon, you only need to fire as long as there is a target around too shoot at.

That's it. With energy, I often find myself in situations when enemy is still here, while the heat forces me to run. With ballistic, you still shoot while you have ammo.

[MustrumRidcully]

Instead of taking about efficiency, I try it directly via tonnage this time: http://mwomercs.com/...on-effectively/

[YueFei]

umod47, on 18 January 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Yes, you can. I know. But you have to look after your heat level. And when it comes to fight, either you hit-and-hide or die. In case where you can't hide (an ambush. for example), you can hardly offense ballistic. Lower DPS mean you do less damage and die faster. Or you can go full DPS for a limited amount of time, but then - hide. Still, you overheat before doing significant damage, so you have to impose longer fight.
On the other hand, ballistic can just pump out all the damage it has without thinking of anything. Just shoot. They can rush, evade, ambush - anything, as long as ammo is available. But with current short fights, it's not a big problem to take enough.

In particular, when I run either HBK4-SP or CPLT-K2, if I face Blackjack, Jagermech, CTF-4X or other ballistic build, I either hide or die, because I can't do enough damage before overheating. If one of these ambushes me, I'm dead. But if I try to ambush one of them, I still overheat, he turns around and kills me.

If someone ambushes you, they probably deserve to kill you. If you ambush someone else, but then give away your initial advantage of surprise by overheating in the open in front of them, you deserve to die. Why not just hit them and fade back into cover before they can retaliate? Wait on heat to fully realize the advantage you have gained by getting the first shot, use your superior speed (thanks to using lighter weight weapons), reposition, and strike again from an unexpected angle?

Quote

I used to face BJ-1 with my HBK. We were just standing and shooting each other from around 200 meters. I had full armor, 4xML, and died without even overheating. And this wasn't a headshot. Damn, he's 5 tons below me and just tears me apart. Either i'm a complete noob, or energy really sucks.

I'm guessing you fought the BJ-1 with AC/20? Of course you deserved to lose. He devotes 14 tons to that massive cannon (even before counting ammo), you pew pew with only 4 tons of Medium Lasers, and somehow you expect to win a head-on fight within the AC/20's optimal range? Why does your HBK only have 4 Medium Lasers, anyway?

Quote

This is interesting, thanks. Still, ballistic is point-and-shoot, while energy forces to think and evade. When ballistic is capable of tearing a mech apart and hiding back quiclky, energy can take off some armor and has to hide.

That's it. With energy, I often find myself in situations when enemy is still here, while the heat forces me to run. With ballistic, you still shoot while you have ammo.

Stick to cover, shoot, and scoot. You have to leverage your own advantages. If you don't want to fight in that style, then don't use energy weapons. Ballistic weapons may just suit you better.

[umod47]

YueFei, on 18 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

If someone ambushes you, they probably deserve to kill you. If you ambush someone else, but then give away your initial advantage of surprise by overheating in the open in front of them, you deserve to die. Why not just hit them and fade back into cover before they can retaliate? Wait on heat to fully realize the advantage you have gained by getting the first shot, use your superior speed (thanks to using lighter weight weapons), reposition, and strike again from an unexpected angle?

With this approach, I can't focus fire on anyone. Damn, it's hard to focus laser fire even on a single part!
So, as long as I see, ballistic can ambush and kill and energy can only ambush, damage and sneak? Right?

YueFei, on 18 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I'm guessing you fought the BJ-1 with AC/20? Of course you deserved to lose. He devotes 14 tons to that massive cannon (even before counting ammo), you pew pew with only 4 tons of Medium Lasers, and somehow you expect to win a head-on fight within the AC/20's optimal range? Why does your HBK only have 4 Medium Lasers, anyway?

5 ML is a hardpoint restriction. I use 4 in hands. Anyway, if I try to sneak from behind, I can't even kill him this way. I can hardly shake off his armor. The only thing saving me is SRM, which actually does the most damage. Everything because of high cooldowns and low overall DPS of energy. If some ballistic dude comes to me from behind, i'm dead before I can turn around.

If I try to put LL inside, either I have 2 LL with average heat output or 4 LL with "shoot and hide at once", as they will give around 40-50% heat in one blast (even without ghost heat).

YueFei, on 18 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Stick to cover, shoot, and scoot. You have to leverage your own advantages. If you don't want to fight in that style, then don't use energy weapons. Ballistic weapons may just suit you better.

I don't feel uncomfortable to fight like this. But I often find myself in nowhere-to-hide situation, so I don't have time to cool down.

P.S. Just switched my CPLT-K2 from default layout (twin PPC, twin ML, twin machineguns) to more ballistic-oriented: twin LL and AC/10. Now I can shoot both uniil 80-90% heat, and then I switch to AC only. I've just made 500+ dmg match with 4 kills, while I could hardly make above 200 dmg with twin PPC. The tactic is still evasive, but now I'm not so uncomfortable in continuous fights.

Edited by umod47, 18 January 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[ShortBusBully]

Some of you not all and I am not going to take the time to point fingers and list names. But seriously, Everytime something gets a nerf, no matter how insignificant 10 threads open up over the next few days on how OP something else is now, because the community has changed loadouts to compensate for the nerf. It is getting old and actually has been old for awhile.

I really wish PGI would fix the SRM's and restore or bump the AC/10. Thats it. Leave the game alone and so some of you can learn how to play this game without crying. Energy and Ballistics are two totally different weapons. So comparing them to each other is illogical. I use mostly ballistic mechs but that is by choice and my play style. I have a couple all energy mechs and do just fine in them when I use them in the role they were intended for. I prefer to brawl up close so short range high damage weapons are my choice. If I try to play at midrange and beyond the optimal range, I do little damage and run out of ammo.

So if you will step back and look at what some of you saying you will see the flaw in your logic. Think of it as a comparison checklist. Like when you try to compare to football teams, which is better defense, offense, special teams.....etc. If you do a fair and impartial list, they will balance out. But in some ways it is comparing apples to oranges because they are two totally different systems.

[YueFei]

umod47, on 18 January 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

With this approach, I can't focus fire on anyone. Damn, it's hard to focus laser fire even on a single part!
So, as long as I see, ballistic can ambush and kill and energy can only ambush, damage and sneak? Right?

That's the idea behind energy weapons. They're lighter weight, so there has to be some trade-off. An AC/10 weighs 12 tons (before counting ammo), a PPC weighs 7 tons.

Quote

5 ML is a hardpoint restriction. I use 4 in hands. Anyway, if I try to sneak from behind, I can't even kill him this way. I can hardly shake off his armor. The only thing saving me is SRM, which actually does the most damage. Everything because of high cooldowns and low overall DPS of energy. If some ballistic dude comes to me from behind, i'm dead before I can turn around.

If I try to put LL inside, either I have 2 LL with average heat output or 4 LL with "shoot and hide at once", as they will give around 40-50% heat in one blast (even without ghost heat).

If you manage to sneak up on someone from behind with HBK-4SP, your alpha strike should seriously hurt him, possibly even kill him. You should be able to deliver back-to-back 49-damage Alpha Strikes without overheating. SRMs have some hitreg issues, but that's a separate problem and has no relevance to energy weapons. If you wanna talk about just pure energy weapons, a HBK-4P can put a 9 medium laser Alpha into someone's back. That's a potential one-shot kill into the back shoulder of an XL-engine Heavy mech.

Quote

I don't feel uncomfortable to fight like this. But I often find myself in nowhere-to-hide situation, so I don't have time to cool down.

Finding yourself in a nowhere-to-hide situation is a combination of you making a mistake and your opponent taking advantage of it. That's actually very re-assuring: it means you can do something about it to correct it. But you have to maintain good awareness, good map vision, take advantage of your speed, withdraw to another hill or find a different pillar to fall back to, etc.

Quote

P.S. Just switched my CPLT-K2 from default layout (twin PPC, twin ML, twin machineguns) to more ballistic-oriented: twin LL and AC/10. Now I can shoot both uniil 80-90% heat, and then I switch to AC only. I've just made 500+ dmg match with 4 kills, while I could hardly make above 200 dmg with twin PPC. The tactic is still evasive, but now I'm not so uncomfortable in continuous fights.

Use a mech build that suits your tactics and playstyle. Just remember that there are other mech builds and they call for different tactics, so if you ever get bored or want to try something new...

[umod47]

YueFei, on 18 January 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Finding yourself in a nowhere-to-hide situation is a combination of you making a mistake and your opponent taking advantage of it. That's actually very re-assuring: it means you can do something about it to correct it. But you have to maintain good awareness, good map vision, take advantage of your speed, withdraw to another hill or find a different pillar to fall back to, etc.

I've just found myself in a situation where jagermech came around corner and killed fresh CPLT-K2 in 5 seconds (literally!). He didn't overheat, he didn't retreat, he just came along. I had absolutely no time to hide anywhere. I could make 2 shots of 2 ML each and 2 shots of AC/10, while trying to turn around between shots. At the same time he just pulled the trigger and stood still killing me, and hardly he got any damage.

Be damned this freakin energy, i'm switching to ballistic.

BTW, I see more and more jagermechs each day. They start to outnumber any other mech. Guess why.

[Joseph Mallan]

umod47, on 21 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

I've just found myself in a situation where jagermech came around corner and killed fresh CPLT-K2 in 5 seconds (literally!). He didn't overheat, he didn't retreat, he just came along. I had absolutely no time to hide anywhere. I could make 2 shots of 2 ML each and 2 shots of AC/10, while trying to turn around between shots. At the same time he just pulled the trigger and stood still killing me, and hardly he got any damage.

Be damned this freakin energy, i'm switching to ballistic.

BTW, I see more and more jagermechs each day. They start to outnumber any other mech. Guess why.

Convergent damage is ruining the game?

[Lykaon]

umod47, on 17 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

OK, let's see.
We take empty SHD-5M with STD 250. It has 24 tons so far.
With AC/10 and 5 tons of ammo, it has 3.32 effective DPS with SHS and 4 DPS with DHS (heat eff 167%). With this loadout, we've spent 41 ton. And this is enough to deal up to 750 dmg or more than 3 minutes of continuous shooting.

Let's see what energy can afford. All energy builds are with DHS (this is obvious).

2xML. The same 10 DMG, but 2.5 DPS. 270 range, which gives almost no chance to run away, and we have to keep the crosshair over the target for quite a time to do anything. But we have only 26 tons so far.
If we had more hardpoints, we could reach 4 DPS with 36 tons and 4xML. Still, we can be outranged easily.

2xLL. Higher damage (18 instead of 10), but we have to fit 44 tons to reach the same DPS. Once again, more accurate aiming required. If we spend 41 tons, we have 3.73 DPS.

1xPPC. We have to spend 32 tons to cool it down and we have 2.42 DPS. But we're helpless when it comes to hand-to-hand combat.

2xPPC. No matter what we do, we can never cool it down completely. With all the slots filled, we have 48 tons, 3.4 DPS with 68% efficency, which means we have to look after heat level and take cover once it's high enough.

1xERPPC. With this thing, we don't have 90m blind range and can outrange almost any weapon, but once again, it's damn too hot. It takes 42 tons with heatsinks, that take up all the space, and we have 2.33 DPS with 93% heat efficency.

You can repeat all this at http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

It appears, that with energy weapon, compared to ballistic, we have either
1) Less DPS with the same weight.
2) More weight with the same DPS.
3) Less weight with the same DPS, but less range because of using medium lasers.

Of course, energy rocks when the battle is long, and ballistic starts to run out of ammo. But this is rarely the case. Still, energy build can hardly fight ballisic build one on one. And, if you use lasers, you have to expose your face to the enemy for a longer time. You can't just shoot and run away. This gives ballistic dude some free shots.

IMHO, energy works for light mechs, as long as they have to hit-and-run-and-cool-down. And it's a fine addition if you have free hardpoints.

I would recommend comparing mechs that may actually be fielded.Your examples were a bit to "laboratory" to make practical comparesons with.

Hunchback 4G 250 std engine 10 DHS Endo and ferro. armor shaved 16 points from max value.
2x AC5 4 tons ammo

6.67 DPS
143% cooling efficeincy
Time to overheat: Never
Total weapon ammo and heatsink payload 20 tons

Hunchback 4P 250 std engine 20 DHS max armor
6x medium lasers

4.27 DPS
57% cooling efficeincy
time to overheat: 36 s
weapon ammo and heatsink payload: 16 tons

Edited by Lykaon, 21 January 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[YueFei]

umod47, on 21 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

I've just found myself in a situation where jagermech came around corner and killed fresh CPLT-K2 in 5 seconds (literally!). He didn't overheat, he didn't retreat, he just came along. I had absolutely no time to hide anywhere. I could make 2 shots of 2 ML each and 2 shots of AC/10, while trying to turn around between shots. At the same time he just pulled the trigger and stood still killing me, and hardly he got any damage.

Be damned this freakin energy, i'm switching to ballistic.

BTW, I see more and more jagermechs each day. They start to outnumber any other mech. Guess why.

Do you not see that you made a mistake? You allowed him to turn the corner and engage you in a position where you had no cover available to you. That could be a combination of your scouts not doing their jobs properly, or the enemy snipers and fire support suppressing you and your team so you were too scared to peek out and get eyes on the area, or your team simply hugging cover too tightly and blinding yourselves, etc. This is preventable.

I'm not saying that I'm a great pilot who never screws up, but I don't whine about myself getting beaten, I acknowledge my mistake and move on to the next match. My own team was whining one time on Frozen City when the enemy sent a bunch of AC/40 Jagermechs up into the northeast urban area and then rolled us up. I told my own team to stop crying. Those Jagermechs came from somewhere, they didn't just materialize in the north, they had to cross an open area past the shipwreck to get in there, we simply never scouted that area, never even bothered looking over there, instead we hugged the corner at grid C3 near the cave entrance until the enemy waltzed up and pulverized us. We screwed up, we got what we deserved.

[Serpieri]

From what I've seen - the problem appears to be that Ballistics fire much faster and the poor heat system. If a mech loaded with energy hard points tries to fight it out with the mech loaded with Ballistics - he will find himself firing much less and reach a point where he can no longer fire due to the heat system where as the Ballistic mech will never need to take his finger of the fire button.

Edited by Serpieri, 21 January 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[umod47]

Quote

Do you not see that you made a mistake? You allowed him to turn the corner and engage you in a position where you had no cover available to you. That could be a combination of your scouts not doing their jobs properly, or the enemy snipers and fire support suppressing you and your team so you were too scared to peek out and get eyes on the area, or your team simply hugging cover too tightly and blinding yourselves, etc. This is preventable.

Of course, this is my mistake. But i've never seen any energy builds doing so. Actually, I can hardly remember any pure energy mech killing me "from scratch". The best they can is either long and boring hit-and-running (which is quite rare) or killing already damaged mech.
While Jagermech should be renamed to "Rapebot 5k", as long as it just comes and rapes. It kills literally in 5 seconds, requiring no tactical skills at all. Just aim and shoot.

Anyway, the current gameplay is 12x12 mess, and the team that can pump out the most damage in the least time wins. Especially when you take into account that the "teams" are composed of random players, so hardly any teamwork is present.

P.S. Searching through forum with "enery ballistic" gives either topics where people want energy be reviewed and redesigned because it's bad, or topics comparing ballistic with energy with the result "ballistic is op". I thing, something is really wrong. If any balance existed, I would be able to find at least one topic stating that "energy is overpowered". Try to find one
The best I could find is that while energy can do some damage, it can't be used as a main weapon.

Edited by umod47, 22 January 2014 - 01:05 AM.

[kapusta11]

Serpieri, on 21 January 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

From what I've seen - the problem appears to be that Ballistics fire much faster and the poor heat system. If a mech loaded with energy hard points tries to fight it out with the mech loaded with Ballistics - he will find himself firing much less and reach a point where he can no longer fire due to the heat system where as the Ballistic mech will never need to take his finger of the fire button.

At least someone see this, problem is that we have stock dissipation (even less actually) with 2.5x rate of rire, thats why energy weapons suck.

[mania3c]

didn't read whole thread..so I am sure someone mentioned it already but..really?

PPC + ML 8 tons
LL + ML 6 tons
AC10 + AC5 20 tons (without ammo)

What the hell are people comparing??

Edited by mania3c, 22 January 2014 - 02:35 AM.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

mania3c, on 22 January 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

didn't read whole thread..so I am sure someone mentioned it already but..really?

PPC + ML 8 tons
LL + ML 6 tons
AC10 + AC5 20 tons (without ammo)

What the hell are people comparing??

how about like my K2 .... all it has is just 2 ERPPCs and loaded with double heat sinks in every available slot and over heat after firing them more than 4 times.... thats right 20 DBL heat sinks...

than you wounder why people put 2 uta5s or ac10s in the K2 over what its ben built for ... PPCs...

maybe put perks into mechs for staying within its intended builds like if you keep ppcs on the K2 and not shoehorn ACs into it it runs a lot cooler this can help mechs like the awesome. After all that is what its ben built for right?

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 22 January 2014 - 03:08 AM.

[mania3c]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 22 January 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

how about like my K2 .... all it has is just 2 ERPPCs and loaded with double heat sinks in every available slot and over heat after firing them more than 4 times.... thats right 20 DBL heat sinks...

than you wounder why people put 2 uta5s or ac10s in the K2 over what its ben built for ... PPCs...

maybe put perks into mechs for staying within its intended builds like if you keep ppcs on the K2 and not shoehorn ACs into it it runs a lot cooler this can help mechs like the awesome. After all that is what its ben built for right?

Heat system has it's own problems...and ER PPCs are indeed undertuned... however ..I have double PPC cicada(and ML)..with 15 DHS and I can shoot all day long on many maps.. only on hot maps I have to be a bit care..so even with this heat system it's not that "hot"

I am all for balanced weapons..but honestly..this forum is just pathetic..comparing something what is not even on a same level, comparing statistic while half of the stats are ignored just for the sake of "being right"..that's problem I have with these posts..