77 replies to this topic

[ImagineDwagons]

I have noticed that it is really hard to drop in 12 team lately. Sometimes you just need to go through many friendly teams TS's and ask to gather for a drop. Then you may play with each other for hours untill another team shows up. These facts confirm that it is not a matchmaker problem but rather problem with number of units/clans who play MWO.

Just right now we tried to find an opponent for more then an hour and failed despite it is a prime time in Russia/EU timezone. This is not a good sign for a recently released game and it disturbs me a lot.

I made this topic not for complaining but rather to try to determine the real situation we currently have and to provide this as a more or less objective feedback to PGI to draw their attention. I really wish this game to succeed since I have been a mechwarrior fan for a long time and apart MWO there is no other battletech game on the market.

P.S.
I tried to post this in "Barracks" but poll option is available only in this section of the forum. Sorry.

[MischiefSC]

Stale high-end meta.

Too few organized groups.

Not enough players.

[Edustaja]

We've been doing drops on monday and wednesday evenings in the EU timezone (GMT 20.00 ->). Those times seem to be reasonably populated eg. more than 5 teams dropping at a time.
Weekend times seem to be very slow though.

[AIMB]

May be to make few modes 5x5 and 8x8. You will still play organized group vs. same, and more chance to find others groups. Cuz really not so many units have enough ppl for 12x12.

[Ransack]

My unit has basically stopped 12 manning for the time being. It is getting harder and harder to keep people interested in the stale game play.

[BlackDrakon]

They are doing 4 mans destroying pugs with poptarts....

[Deathlike]

Months ago, I forgot who from PGI stated that 12-mans was healthy.

Last night, I did 12-mans... and "had an interesting time" with the same opposing team for 7 or 8 straight matches. Apparently that was the queue for the night (the other team was practicing for their league).

I hope that explains everything you need to know.

[DEMAX51]

My team runs 12-mans three times a week, and it's a bit hit or miss. Sometimes we have no problem finding games, others we'll try for an hour without dropping into a single match. If you're selecting one particular game mode and having difficulty finding a match, try switching to "any."

Of note: it's definitely not a MM problem, because the 12 man queue is first-come-first-served, not Elo based. Elo plays no part in 12-man games.

Edited by DEMAX51, 13 December 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Lykaon]

If it is a hassel players won't do it.

And 12 player mandatory group size is a hassel to maintain for any length of time so players don't do it.

And what do we have to thank for this situation.

1) Lack of communication and social tools
2) seperation of the queue in the first place

We didn't need to isolate groups from pugs we need to intergrate grouping with Pugs.The seperation was a step backward in my opinion.The step forward would have been intergrated coms so all players could use voice and pre launch lobbies for players (premades and pugs) to choose mechs and pre plan.

If every player had voice and access to pre arranged mech selection the only true seperation between pug and premade would be skill.

Add these features and unify the queue!

[MuonNeutrino]

The 12-queue is empty because nobody wants to play it. The meta is absolutely *beyond* stale right now.

Lykaon, on 13 December 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Add these features and unify the queue!

Add these features and I leave the game. I don't want to play a game where I'm forced into running nothing but the absolute worst meta cheese in order to have any chance of winning. I like dropping into pug games in fun mechs, not endlessly poptarting in the heaviest jump-capable mech I can find.

[Lykaon]

MuonNeutrino, on 13 December 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

The 12-queue is empty because nobody wants to play it. The meta is absolutely *beyond* stale right now.



Add these features and I leave the game. I don't want to play a game where I'm forced into running nothing but the absolute worst meta cheese in order to have any chance of winning. I like dropping into pug games in fun mechs, not endlessly poptarting in the heaviest jump-capable mech I can find.

So adding voice chat and lobbies = enforced meta play?

The stale as hell meta is a product of a failure in mechanics design.The lack of communication and social tools is also a failure that can be more easily corrected.

There are two primary factors that give 4 man groups an edge over their puggy counter parts.

1) Voice comms
2) Preselection of complimentry mech designs.

Adding lobbies and voice for everyone gives everyone these two advantages so it levels the playing field and removes a need to seperate the queues.

Now if you are one of those guys running a "fun" mech that is actually {Scrap} or overly nitche like a 4 flamer jenner then I can see a possibility of other members of your team requesting you pilot something "good".

There is a difference between playing as a team member and playing as one of the silent hoard.I personaly can not understand why being a mute hoardling is at all desireable to interactive team play but that's on me.

On a side note...

I don't poptart Won't do it as a primary strategy I may use it as a tactic but I do not build to optimize poptarting with the intent to poptart it's boring to me so I agree.I may be the last player to have a Highlander 733C that isn't packing a single PPC.
I would love to see the meta widen up beyond JJs and pinpoint alphas coupled with arty strikes.

[MischiefSC]

Lykaon, on 13 December 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

So adding voice chat and lobbies = enforced meta play?

The stale as hell meta is a product of a failure in mechanics design.The lack of communication and social tools is also a failure that can be more easily corrected.

There are two primary factors that give 4 man groups an edge over their puggy counter parts.

1) Voice comms
2) Preselection of complimentry mech designs.

Adding lobbies and voice for everyone gives everyone these two advantages so it levels the playing field and removes a need to seperate the queues.

Now if you are one of those guys running a "fun" mech that is actually {Scrap} or overly nitche like a 4 flamer jenner then I can see a possibility of other members of your team requesting you pilot something "good".

There is a difference between playing as a team member and playing as one of the silent hoard.I personaly can not understand why being a mute hoardling is at all desireable to interactive team play but that's on me.

On a side note...

I don't poptart Won't do it as a primary strategy I may use it as a tactic but I do not build to optimize poptarting with the intent to poptart it's boring to me so I agree.I may be the last player to have a Highlander 733C that isn't packing a single PPC.
I would love to see the meta widen up beyond JJs and pinpoint alphas coupled with arty strikes.

Most of us would just turn the voice comms off. I don't want to listen to kids telling their mom they'll go to bed in a minute or screaming 'LEEEEERRROOOYYY JENKINS!!!!' every 10 seconds, or the myriad of other garbage that comes with open voice comms. Most the people in pugs managed to download and install the MW:O client - they can manage Teamspeak. If we wanted team play on comms it's not hard to find.

Fix the stale meta. I've pointed out methods in various places (change AC/PPC to DOT for 0.3 to 0.5 seconds, remove gauss delay, speed up SRMs by 50%) to do so easily while we wait for CW. Make matches more enjoyable and more people will play. It's really that simple.

[xMEPHISTOx]

The population declines with every month that goes by w/out any content additions (relevant content, CW, ui2.0, lobbies, DX11, etc) aside from now a 3rd money pit package.
So with that overall declination the 12's actually take a harder hit as the competitive folks tend to be inclined to move on to games that provide content for competitive players.

[Profiteer]

12 Mans are a joke.

I run with a crew that regularly tries to 12 man most nights.

Sometimes we'll get another team that will play for 2-3 games and then quit. Often, like tonight, we'll fail 4 times in a row and break into 4's.

Sometimes we'll work our butts off getting 24 guys together just so we know we'll have someone to fight.

It's not uncommon to spend 3 hours trying to play 12 mans only to get 6 games or less.

There needs to be more encouragement to play them. C-bills, exp, whatever.

Surely 12 mans should be what every vet player spends most of their time on? Not here...

[Mudhutwarrior]

It boils down to many, too many take the easy road. Why would you form up in 12 mans and fight equal opponents when you can drop in smaller groups and crush pugs?

There are plenty of premades dropping non stop who could move up to a skill based fight but they won't. Its called cowardice as it easier to bully pugs and earn more than really challenge oneself.

Just look at the wrecking crew here on the forums fighting tooth and nail to keep it the same as yesterday. Biggest cowards of the bunch with a majority sharing the same house. PGI could change this system and push the exploiters to really fight but they wont because of these guys making sure they suppress anything that runs counter to their goals,

I would like to work my way up to competition play by joining a team but I will not join a team to exploit pugs for profit. So far each one I have been invited to join is going the easy route. I just wont do it.

I would like to thank those who run in the big leagues. You teach me a lot when I watch your matches and read you posts on the forums Someday I do hope to stand alongside you in battle.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 14 December 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

It boils down to many, too many take the easy road. Why would you form up in 12 mans and fight equal opponents when you can drop in smaller groups and crush pugs?

From my experience in 12 man, you have 12 man team sthat stomp your 12 man just like you have PUG teams that stomp your PUG team. I will continue to say it until we no longer have an issue, The Better team wins, and the Better team wil have,
Better communication, equipment, and tactics. It won't matter how good a PUG team does if they are not commnunicating on the same level as Pre mades, PUGs will lose. Pre mades will lose v better coordinated Premades and the cycle is self sustaining.

[Jman5]

I played 12s last Tuesday and we had the opposite problem: Too many 12 man groups in queue.

We were trying to sync drop with against another 12-man and we mis-synced 5 times in a row against 5 different teams. Most likely the 12-man population varies depending on the time of day. If you're playing during North America Prime Time, there seems to be few issues.

[Lykaon]

MischiefSC, on 13 December 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Most of us would just turn the voice comms off. I don't want to listen to kids telling their mom they'll go to bed in a minute or screaming 'LEEEEERRROOOYYY JENKINS!!!!' every 10 seconds, or the myriad of other garbage that comes with open voice comms. Most the people in pugs managed to download and install the MW:O client - they can manage Teamspeak. If we wanted team play on comms it's not hard to find.

Fix the stale meta. I've pointed out methods in various places (change AC/PPC to DOT for 0.3 to 0.5 seconds, remove gauss delay, speed up SRMs by 50%) to do so easily while we wait for CW. Make matches more enjoyable and more people will play. It's really that simple.

Have you ever played on the public teamspeak servers hosted for use in MWo?

What you discribed has never happened to me while playing on a public server.Really it's not as bad as you think.

And there is an ignore feature and the likely hood that any chat feature would include the ability to mute specific players.
If you do get a drop with a jerk mute them then add them to your ignore list.

My point is the stale meta and lack of community building tools are two seperate issues.The community building is an issue repaired by adding in voice chat and lobbies and levels the playing field for Pugs compared to premades and thus vastly reduces a need to seperate queues.

The stale meta problem actually stems from a faulty damage application mechanic.Lifting a table top game mechanic designed to operate in conjunction with random hit locations and dropping it into a real time shooter is the failure.

As long as this issue persists there will always be a meta designed to exploit this failure.

For example your suggested fixes would swing the meta towards Gauss and SRM use.So the new meta mechs would be anything that carried 2 gauss or anything that can fit 4+ SRM6s.A new stale meta is born because this new meta exploits the poor damage mechanics.

[Mycrus]

we even fail to find matches in Asia saturday AM - supposedly Friday Night primetime for North America...

12-manz are dead... and this game soon with it... give us something better to do... but no... resources were placed to developing the more lucrative clan package...

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

id give a good answer but I dont vote in public polls.