Typical min/max-er attitude. The kind that wrecks games, any game. Don't listen to that {Scrap}.
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Have You Been Told That A Medium Mech Is Not Welcome In The Team ?
Started by Dazzer, Dec 27 2013 04:54 AM
242 replies to this topic
#122
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- 14 posts
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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:54 AM
Are people still going on about this.
If you enjoy playing in a medium then who gives a dam what anyone else thinks.
I enjoy mediums and they can be hell of allot more useful then a lance of assaults.
If you enjoy playing in a medium then who gives a dam what anyone else thinks.
I enjoy mediums and they can be hell of allot more useful then a lance of assaults.
#123
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- 318 posts
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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:34 PM
Look, the entire point is this:
is having fun----being not a teamplayer a sliding scale?
We have rules to punish people that TK or dont fight. What about people that prefer to run with all flamers and shoot people with them until they get killed? What about people that take 2 PPCs, AC20, 2LL, LRM20's, SRM6, but have NO armor on their atlas? They might be having fun just unloading, but also be poor as a team value, and thus "ruin the game" for others.
You seem to accept anti-tk rules or running out of bounds rules, but reject the implication that taking mediums is a hindrance to your team, even if it isnt against the rules.
Look at it from this angle. What if they'd kept medium lasers 3 heat and instant damage? Would we see laser boats all the time? Would you find it fun, or would you complain about it, when your ballistic/missile/mix mech is practically subpar and dies all the time?
After all
"Min/maxers ruin games and make things not fun."
If everyone is running masses of medium lasers, are you going to still find it fun when you have your srm4/1ml/1sl stock mech and die over and over because your design doesn't work effectively in the game's framework? Or, would you get bored and leave or claim the game was unbalanced?
You can't ask for the game to be balanced if you aren't willing to take advantage of the most effective properties of the game, but Im willing to bet you'd feel better about playing the game once those lasers are nerfed in heat and made DoT.
is having fun----being not a teamplayer a sliding scale?
We have rules to punish people that TK or dont fight. What about people that prefer to run with all flamers and shoot people with them until they get killed? What about people that take 2 PPCs, AC20, 2LL, LRM20's, SRM6, but have NO armor on their atlas? They might be having fun just unloading, but also be poor as a team value, and thus "ruin the game" for others.
You seem to accept anti-tk rules or running out of bounds rules, but reject the implication that taking mediums is a hindrance to your team, even if it isnt against the rules.
Look at it from this angle. What if they'd kept medium lasers 3 heat and instant damage? Would we see laser boats all the time? Would you find it fun, or would you complain about it, when your ballistic/missile/mix mech is practically subpar and dies all the time?
After all
"Min/maxers ruin games and make things not fun."
If everyone is running masses of medium lasers, are you going to still find it fun when you have your srm4/1ml/1sl stock mech and die over and over because your design doesn't work effectively in the game's framework? Or, would you get bored and leave or claim the game was unbalanced?
You can't ask for the game to be balanced if you aren't willing to take advantage of the most effective properties of the game, but Im willing to bet you'd feel better about playing the game once those lasers are nerfed in heat and made DoT.
#124
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Best Fluffy Bunny
Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:54 PM
There's a number of reasons.
1. Assault mechs are easy to get away from, so i you pop around a corner, chances are you can run away and try to get some flank action. This means the assault person gets less damage off.
(This means they are easier to kill.)
2. Damage done is very technically handled. If you take a mech out of the match by coring it's XL engine, you did significant damage but your actual rated damage in terms of armor/internals destroyed will be very low. Those mediums splashing all over other players' armor with LBX and SRM will do as much or perhaps more damage, because they're dealing less effective damage.
(Since you're not going to be able to do the coring of an XL engine, because the medium is faster and ran away, their splashed damage will take down an atlas by ripping away it's primary weapons and leaving a useless hulk.)
3. LBX and other shot comes in handy for those mediums vulturing kills. Once the enemy is weakened, those LBX and SRMs wreck internals. Each destroyed heat sink, gun, ammo, is numerically superior in damage done to simply finishing them off quickly. The longer you take to down someone, the more damage you have to do.
(each lbx shot is another chance at a crit or through armor crit. to get the engine in a single shot. While you're dodging shots from the assault which is turning to slowly to hit you.)
4. PuGs in general have an issue of poor formation control, apart from the generic blob, and thus it can be easy to get around to a flank or exposed rear armor and get some good shots off. This says less about assault mechs and more about poor teamwork or bad piloting. Those things can multiply or divide a medium mech's effectiveness.
(In 12 man they are more interested in dealing with the other mechs, forgetting about the medium that showed up once and left, opening their back, or the other version they are so interested in killing the medium they can't hit, they are giving their back armor to the rest of your team.)
There's a number of reasons.
1. Assault mechs are easy to get away from, so i you pop around a corner, chances are you can run away and try to get some flank action. This means the assault person gets less damage off, even if they end up with all the kills because you and your team got chewed up fighting the rest of his team.
2. Damage done is very technically handled. If you take a mech out of the match by coring it's XL engine, you did significant damage but your actual rated damage in terms of armor/internals destroyed will be very low. Those mediums splashing all over other players' armor with LBX and SRM will do as much or perhaps more damage, because they're dealing less effective damage. I'll take a fast coring atlas over an LBX spamming medium any day. The faster the enemy dies, the less they shoot at you.
3. Like number 2, LBX and other shot comes in handy for those mediums vulturing kills. Once the enemy is weakened, those LBX and SRMs wreck internals. Each destroyed heat sink, gun, ammo, is numerically superior in damage done to simply finishing them off quickly. The longer you take to down someone, the more damage you have to do.
4. PuGs in general have an issue of poor formation control, apart from the generic blob, and thus it can be easy to get around to a flank or exposed rear armor and get some good shots off. This says less about assault mechs and more about poor teamwork or bad piloting. Those things can multiply or divide a medium mech's effectiveness.
1. Assault mechs are easy to get away from, so i you pop around a corner, chances are you can run away and try to get some flank action. This means the assault person gets less damage off.
(This means they are easier to kill.)
2. Damage done is very technically handled. If you take a mech out of the match by coring it's XL engine, you did significant damage but your actual rated damage in terms of armor/internals destroyed will be very low. Those mediums splashing all over other players' armor with LBX and SRM will do as much or perhaps more damage, because they're dealing less effective damage.
(Since you're not going to be able to do the coring of an XL engine, because the medium is faster and ran away, their splashed damage will take down an atlas by ripping away it's primary weapons and leaving a useless hulk.)
3. LBX and other shot comes in handy for those mediums vulturing kills. Once the enemy is weakened, those LBX and SRMs wreck internals. Each destroyed heat sink, gun, ammo, is numerically superior in damage done to simply finishing them off quickly. The longer you take to down someone, the more damage you have to do.
(each lbx shot is another chance at a crit or through armor crit. to get the engine in a single shot. While you're dodging shots from the assault which is turning to slowly to hit you.)
4. PuGs in general have an issue of poor formation control, apart from the generic blob, and thus it can be easy to get around to a flank or exposed rear armor and get some good shots off. This says less about assault mechs and more about poor teamwork or bad piloting. Those things can multiply or divide a medium mech's effectiveness.
(In 12 man they are more interested in dealing with the other mechs, forgetting about the medium that showed up once and left, opening their back, or the other version they are so interested in killing the medium they can't hit, they are giving their back armor to the rest of your team.)
Myomes, on 30 December 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:
There's a number of reasons.
1. Assault mechs are easy to get away from, so i you pop around a corner, chances are you can run away and try to get some flank action. This means the assault person gets less damage off, even if they end up with all the kills because you and your team got chewed up fighting the rest of his team.
2. Damage done is very technically handled. If you take a mech out of the match by coring it's XL engine, you did significant damage but your actual rated damage in terms of armor/internals destroyed will be very low. Those mediums splashing all over other players' armor with LBX and SRM will do as much or perhaps more damage, because they're dealing less effective damage. I'll take a fast coring atlas over an LBX spamming medium any day. The faster the enemy dies, the less they shoot at you.
3. Like number 2, LBX and other shot comes in handy for those mediums vulturing kills. Once the enemy is weakened, those LBX and SRMs wreck internals. Each destroyed heat sink, gun, ammo, is numerically superior in damage done to simply finishing them off quickly. The longer you take to down someone, the more damage you have to do.
4. PuGs in general have an issue of poor formation control, apart from the generic blob, and thus it can be easy to get around to a flank or exposed rear armor and get some good shots off. This says less about assault mechs and more about poor teamwork or bad piloting. Those things can multiply or divide a medium mech's effectiveness.
#125
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- Veteran Founder
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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:51 PM
Dazzer, on 27 December 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:
Hello all,
Today while PUG-íng I was told at the start of the match that my Medium Mech (Hunchback 4P) was not welcome in the team. That I should play a heavy or assault or a light.
Then that my medium was in fact a liability to the team.
Has any one else had this please ? its was rather nasty.
Today while PUG-íng I was told at the start of the match that my Medium Mech (Hunchback 4P) was not welcome in the team. That I should play a heavy or assault or a light.
Then that my medium was in fact a liability to the team.
Has any one else had this please ? its was rather nasty.
Like everyone else has been saying, just ignore the haters. They don't know what they're talking about. As someone who's got a friend that heavily favors medium mechs for their mix of speed and power, I can say with certainty that Medium mechs can kick some serious ***. A good way to avoid haters is playing with other Skye Rangers. We'll never diss on you just for using a Medium.
#126
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- Overlord
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:54 AM
Myomes, on 29 December 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:
solaris duels rule that your medium mech is dusted by assault mech.
If we ever get private matches, then I call a duel, Sir/Madame.
Pistols at dawn.
Please feel free to bring your meta-lander, I shall bring a medium of my choice.
Then we shall see.
Edit: And I won't be bringing an AC/20 to artificially bolster my damage figures.
Edited by Smittiferous, 31 December 2013 - 12:56 AM.
#127
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- Ace Of Spades
- 476 posts
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:54 AM
A medium mech is as good as its pilot - the same as any mech. If the mech is well build, the pilot good and likes the mech, its an asset to the team.
I just state my K/D here:
Cicada CDA-2A - my best K/D: 97 kills 60 death, 1,62 - ok, the cic is more a light mech so
BJ-3: 30 kills, 24death, K/D 1.25 not even speed upgrade, lots of dead Jagers.
HUNCHBACK HBK-4SP 59kills, 58 K/D 1.02
Okay, the other variants are a bit less good at the K/D, but its above 0.8. Means I kill more tons then I cost. Even when the same Jagers, CFT and Atlases get most of the kills on the battlefield.
I just state my K/D here:
Cicada CDA-2A - my best K/D: 97 kills 60 death, 1,62 - ok, the cic is more a light mech so
BJ-3: 30 kills, 24death, K/D 1.25 not even speed upgrade, lots of dead Jagers.
HUNCHBACK HBK-4SP 59kills, 58 K/D 1.02
Okay, the other variants are a bit less good at the K/D, but its above 0.8. Means I kill more tons then I cost. Even when the same Jagers, CFT and Atlases get most of the kills on the battlefield.
#128
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- 318 posts
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:08 AM
Smittiferous, on 31 December 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:
If we ever get private matches, then I call a duel, Sir/Madame.
Pistols at dawn.
Please feel free to bring your meta-lander, I shall bring a medium of my choice.
Then we shall see.
Edit: And I won't be bringing an AC/20 to artificially bolster my damage figures.
Pistols at dawn.
Please feel free to bring your meta-lander, I shall bring a medium of my choice.
Then we shall see.
Edit: And I won't be bringing an AC/20 to artificially bolster my damage figures.
I prefer atlas or awesome
#129
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- 318 posts
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:14 AM
fluffypinkbunny, on 30 December 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:
There's a number of reasons.
1. Assault mechs are easy to get away from, so i you pop around a corner, chances are you can run away and try to get some flank action. This means the assault person gets less damage off.
(This means they are easier to kill.)
2. Damage done is very technically handled. If you take a mech out of the match by coring it's XL engine, you did significant damage but your actual rated damage in terms of armor/internals destroyed will be very low. Those mediums splashing all over other players' armor with LBX and SRM will do as much or perhaps more damage, because they're dealing less effective damage.
(Since you're not going to be able to do the coring of an XL engine, because the medium is faster and ran away, their splashed damage will take down an atlas by ripping away it's primary weapons and leaving a useless hulk.)
3. LBX and other shot comes in handy for those mediums vulturing kills. Once the enemy is weakened, those LBX and SRMs wreck internals. Each destroyed heat sink, gun, ammo, is numerically superior in damage done to simply finishing them off quickly. The longer you take to down someone, the more damage you have to do.
(each lbx shot is another chance at a crit or through armor crit. to get the engine in a single shot. While you're dodging shots from the assault which is turning to slowly to hit you.)
4. PuGs in general have an issue of poor formation control, apart from the generic blob, and thus it can be easy to get around to a flank or exposed rear armor and get some good shots off. This says less about assault mechs and more about poor teamwork or bad piloting. Those things can multiply or divide a medium mech's effectiveness.
(In 12 man they are more interested in dealing with the other mechs, forgetting about the medium that showed up once and left, opening their back, or the other version they are so interested in killing the medium they can't hit, they are giving their back armor to the rest of your team.)
1. Assault mechs are easy to get away from, so i you pop around a corner, chances are you can run away and try to get some flank action. This means the assault person gets less damage off.
(This means they are easier to kill.)
2. Damage done is very technically handled. If you take a mech out of the match by coring it's XL engine, you did significant damage but your actual rated damage in terms of armor/internals destroyed will be very low. Those mediums splashing all over other players' armor with LBX and SRM will do as much or perhaps more damage, because they're dealing less effective damage.
(Since you're not going to be able to do the coring of an XL engine, because the medium is faster and ran away, their splashed damage will take down an atlas by ripping away it's primary weapons and leaving a useless hulk.)
3. LBX and other shot comes in handy for those mediums vulturing kills. Once the enemy is weakened, those LBX and SRMs wreck internals. Each destroyed heat sink, gun, ammo, is numerically superior in damage done to simply finishing them off quickly. The longer you take to down someone, the more damage you have to do.
(each lbx shot is another chance at a crit or through armor crit. to get the engine in a single shot. While you're dodging shots from the assault which is turning to slowly to hit you.)
4. PuGs in general have an issue of poor formation control, apart from the generic blob, and thus it can be easy to get around to a flank or exposed rear armor and get some good shots off. This says less about assault mechs and more about poor teamwork or bad piloting. Those things can multiply or divide a medium mech's effectiveness.
(In 12 man they are more interested in dealing with the other mechs, forgetting about the medium that showed up once and left, opening their back, or the other version they are so interested in killing the medium they can't hit, they are giving their back armor to the rest of your team.)
practically everything you "fixed" is based on major assumptions, about the poorness of the 12 man assault group in covering each other, about the ability of a medium to be fast enough to dodge PPCs or ACs, etc. Also, the LBX mediums means mediums using LBX to vulture kills, not mediums using LBX vs assaults.
#130
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- Veteran Founder
- 507 posts
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:35 AM
Save my Victor and occassional DDC spree, I pilot nothing but Medium Mechs. I've got respectable stats to back them up too and I usually play with a 4 man if anyone is curious.
Kill the haters.
*Note: these stats obviously took place after the reset... so given the HBK and Cent have more back from closed beta than what's displayed here.
Cicada X-5
Centurion 9-A
Hunch 4H
Shadowhawk 2H
**EDIT**
Adding the Victor for the lulz, because I do retardedly well with it... plus it's practically a retrofitted medium w/ stupid amounts of armor.
Victor 9S
Kill the haters.
*Note: these stats obviously took place after the reset... so given the HBK and Cent have more back from closed beta than what's displayed here.
Cicada X-5
Centurion 9-A
Hunch 4H
Shadowhawk 2H
**EDIT**
Adding the Victor for the lulz, because I do retardedly well with it... plus it's practically a retrofitted medium w/ stupid amounts of armor.
Victor 9S
Edited by Vrbas, 31 December 2013 - 09:43 AM.
#131
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- Fury
- 993 posts
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- LocationNew Jersey
Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:47 AM
Myomes, on 28 December 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:
you're quite stupid. I wasn't whining about AC20, if anything, it'd be a whine that mediums just arent competitive without spamming AC/20.
Weight restrictions ARE a metagame tool. The same way rules against shoving or eye gouging are metagame tools for basketball. They enforce particular playstyle to stylize the game into something the players and spectators want. Without those metagame rules, one team would just say "hey, why work so hard" and break the other sides hands and then win by other team having to forfeit due to insufficient players.
I want you to google metagame and figure out what it actually means.
Or keep living in your delusional reality. That doesn't bother me.
Go back a page and explain to me where I had an ac20 on my wvr-7k? I did those numbers with the much maligned srms. Hope I see you on the field, I'll be the guy who blew off your legs
#132
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- Fury
- 993 posts
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- LocationNew Jersey
Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:56 AM
fluffypinkbunny, on 28 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:
I don't have a screen shot, but i'm sure humpingbunny has seen my name around and my hunchback.
Hey fluffy!
#133
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- The Sickle
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- LocationConnecticut
Posted 31 December 2013 - 10:04 AM
So what this guy is saying is the way in which we have fun is incompatible with how he wants to have fun? Wow, what a coincidence.
Here's the kicker. Anyone who enjoys playing a medium probably really doesn't care. Odds are they don't take he game a fraction as seriously as you do and, frankly. you're values are no more valid than theirs. So when someone on your team is piloting a medium it ruins your experience because it makes it harder to win? Cry me a river. You know what ruins my experience? Belligerent try-hards with an elitist mentality that badger others into playing the game the way they think it should be played because the take it way too seriously.
Here's the kicker. Anyone who enjoys playing a medium probably really doesn't care. Odds are they don't take he game a fraction as seriously as you do and, frankly. you're values are no more valid than theirs. So when someone on your team is piloting a medium it ruins your experience because it makes it harder to win? Cry me a river. You know what ruins my experience? Belligerent try-hards with an elitist mentality that badger others into playing the game the way they think it should be played because the take it way too seriously.
#134
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- 318 posts
Member
Posted 31 December 2013 - 04:04 PM
Raso, on 31 December 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:
So what this guy is saying is the way in which we have fun is incompatible with how he wants to have fun? Wow, what a coincidence.
Here's the kicker. Anyone who enjoys playing a medium probably really doesn't care. Odds are they don't take he game a fraction as seriously as you do and, frankly. you're values are no more valid than theirs. So when someone on your team is piloting a medium it ruins your experience because it makes it harder to win? Cry me a river. You know what ruins my experience? Belligerent try-hards with an elitist mentality that badger others into playing the game the way they think it should be played because the take it way too seriously.
Here's the kicker. Anyone who enjoys playing a medium probably really doesn't care. Odds are they don't take he game a fraction as seriously as you do and, frankly. you're values are no more valid than theirs. So when someone on your team is piloting a medium it ruins your experience because it makes it harder to win? Cry me a river. You know what ruins my experience? Belligerent try-hards with an elitist mentality that badger others into playing the game the way they think it should be played because the take it way too seriously.
so choosing a bad mech and dragging down the team is okay, but teamkilling is not, then? Is this your stance? Because both ways are how that person enjoys the game, and both ways cause teammates not to be able to enjoy the game.
#135
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- Overlord
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 04:16 PM
Myomes, on 31 December 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:
I prefer atlas or awesome
Myomes, on 31 December 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:
so choosing a bad mech and dragging down the team is okay, but teamkilling is not, then? Is this your stance? Because both ways are how that person enjoys the game, and both ways cause teammates not to be able to enjoy the game.
Now that's some epic hypocrisy by your own logic.
Edited by Smittiferous, 31 December 2013 - 04:17 PM.
#136
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- The Determined
- 172 posts
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:02 PM
Join a Team, follow their drop composition, and ignore everyone else. This is a Team game, and Pugging is not a Team activity, it's a non-regulated free-for-all wherein all opinions are equally valid and irrelevant at the same time.
Somebody doesn't think your mech is viable? If it bothers HIM so much, HE needs to join a team wherein Mediums are banned. He will fit in there. He will also not be around to bother anyone else....
Somebody doesn't think your mech is viable? If it bothers HIM so much, HE needs to join a team wherein Mediums are banned. He will fit in there. He will also not be around to bother anyone else....
#137
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- The Hammer
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- LocationNorth Carolina
Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:28 PM
I just did a drop with Myomes. He scored 300 and died in his Atlas. I scored 500 dmg and 2 kills and survived until the end of the match. We won and I was driving a Treb! Take that Myomes.
#139
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- The Hammer
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- LocationNorth Carolina
Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:03 PM
I noticed he ran off by himself and tried to flank. If he'd stuck with the group, he'd scored higher.
#140
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- Urban Commando
- 1,884 posts
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:22 PM
Myomes, on 31 December 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:
so choosing a bad mech and dragging down the team is okay, but teamkilling is not, then? Is this your stance? Because both ways are how that person enjoys the game, and both ways cause teammates not to be able to enjoy the game.
choosing a "bad" mech (in this scenario a medium) is helping the team in what some may believe to be a less than the best of the other person's ability (even if said pilot is a better medium pilot than in any other chassis so by taking the medium the pilot IS actually bringing their best to the match). helping the team in any way helps the other teammates enjoy the game to a degree.
teamkilling is actively lowering the team's chances by removing a teammate from your side. putting your team short a mech doesn't help their teammates at all which makes it less enjoyable for the rest of the team.
so if one does offer at worst even a slight degree of fun (an active medium on your team) and the other (TKing) offers none at all (if not lowers it) then it's not the same thing at all. after all when someone is shooting at the medium they're not shooting at your heavy/assault which means you're getting free damage/kills in thanks to your medium teammate. the dead TKed mech just kinda lays there and smokes while you get shot at instead.
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