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Have You Been Told That A Medium Mech Is Not Welcome In The Team ?


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#41 Jody Von Jedi

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 06:04 PM

I've never been told to loose the medium mech by another player. But they are pretty well bashed in these forums.

I score my highest in mediums. I've had 2 matches 1k plus and just the other day I put up a 917 damage in a BJ-1. Mediums rock!

Edited by Jody Von Jedi, 27 December 2013 - 06:05 PM.


#42 Myomes

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:02 PM

The Trial Mechs are not representative of Stock mechs. They are all double heat sinked (because PGI ruined heat dissipation mechanics, and being shutdown 24/7 would ruin newbie retention as SHS don't work), and they try to take advantage of a specific range setting. The Blackjack is probably the most cheesy trial mech available, and is not representative of medium mechs as a whole.

the 9M awesome has several improvements over the other variants. For one, it can fit larger engines than the other variants, which makes no game sense at all, and it comes stock with endo and DHS and an XL engine to fit on so many more heatsinks.

that's like taking a porsche racing and saying "see, VW bugs aren't so bad!". They may superficially look the same, but they're not.

View PostJody Von Jedi, on 27 December 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

I've never been told to loose the medium mech by another player. But they are pretty well bashed in these forums.

I score my highest in mediums. I've had 2 matches 1k plus and just the other day I put up a 917 damage in a BJ-1. Mediums rock!


Im guessing its the AC/20 style.

View PostBraddack, on 27 December 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Show em to me and i show em what an Hunchback can do.

That where just Idiots whith no clue. Typical Min maxer who wonder why they can die doe an Hunchi ;)

When the Weight restriction comes into game they beg for Medium Pilots.


another case of AC/20 artificially inflating the medium mech viability numbers.

View PostNuclearPanda, on 27 December 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:


Wow, I would say play absolutely ANYTHING YOU WANT. :lol:

That being said, in my whole stable of almost 40 mechs at the moment, my new Wolverine has the absolutely highest KDR (bordering 4.0 with close to 60 matches run).

It's fast (116kph), durable and sports 5 medium lasers that I can alpha strike over and over without fear of overheating.

I laugh in the face of those who say mediums are worthless. Centurions used to be amazing with their immortal hitboxes (still aren't bad), and now ShadowHawks and Wolverines rule the roost.

Plus once weight restrictions are dropped on us you'll be thankful for those mediums!

View PostFut, on 27 December 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:


Exactly.

Besides, once CW comes along and restrictions are in place, people will love having an experienced Medium Pilot on their side. So get your practice in now!


Right. You're saying they'll only be useful once METAGAME restrictions are placed on it.

In a no-holds-barred environment, taking anything middle weight is sub par.

#43 Myomes

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:36 PM

View PostLockgor, on 27 December 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

To present the other side of it... unfortunately, sometimes mediums can be a "liability." For example, there are times when I drop in my HBK's or SHD's, where the team seems to be doing well in terms of positioning, early kills, ect.; we start to lose about halfway through the match. The reason we lost steam becomes obvious when you look at the after-match screen, and see a tonnage difference of 100 tons or more. All things equal, a heavier mech has more killing power than a lighter mech. All things equal, a heavier mech can absorb more damage than a lighter mech. In a game where every game mode can be a death match, this matters. In anycase, mediums are suppose to exist in an environment where all things are not equal, and there are resource considerations limiting what can be deployed. In that environment, the middle-ground between a light and an heavy mech has its place. Hopefully, tonnage limits will be the resource that balances things out. For me anyway, I find my mediums are more functional in matches where the team doesn't collapse due to weight differences. That's when I can pull of those 600+ damage games. Just because I can do top match-damage in my SHD-2H, firing every auto cannon round I got; doesn't mean that the middle-ish score AS7-D-DC didn't make it possible. One can be the best shot, be very maneuverable, and have good instincts when it comes to reading the flow of the game, ect; but, one can only have so much armor, and one can only carry so much in terms of weapon systems. This is a team game. And, if your team is falling apart, that limits where you can move. While I never was told that I was a liability while piloting one of my medium mechs, sometime I do feel like the team would have been better off if I showed up in something heavier.

Mediums are certainly not worthless, but in the current state of the game I find that they are sub-optimal. Which kinda sucks.


What you're saying is that it's almost representative of TT. 20+ tons difference makes the lighter mech trashed usually. Light mechs got A LOT of protection for themselves in Lasers being switched from instant damage like TT or old mechwarrior to Damage over time (which, with the terrible heat system ruined the fun stock light mech hunter chassis like commando-1B). Combined with the hardmode aiming system (MW was easier to aim in lag city Dial up), the hit detection issues, and lights can certainly escape or overcome a lot of things they would never have been able to in TT or older MW titles.

the medium class is just at the right weight where excessive speed cant be souped up on them to lagshield, they dont have the armor of heavies, and their larger frame makes holding the annoying damage over time lasers in the proper location longer.

That's why medium mechs are sub par. The gameplay changes availed them of nothing compared to lights, and they've always been outclassed by heavies and assaults, just like in older MW or TT.

In a game of metagame restrictions such as BV or tonnage limit, or a campaign with limited resources and needing to spend only the amount needed to do the job, mediums are much more desirable. without any restrictions, they're dead weight.

Edited by Myomes, 27 December 2013 - 08:39 PM.


#44 Myomes

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 27 December 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Mediums suck if you don't know what you're doing, and they suck worse than any other class because they lack the armor of heavier mechs and the elusiveness of lighter ones. It also didn't help that the medium classes included the Trebuchet and (incorrectly) the Dragon, the two least-used mechs in the game.

That said, someone with some practice in a medium can quickly become just as effective as a brawler, and the skillful use of mediums can easily tip a match in their team's favor.

Plus, the reputation of mediums being sucky choices is a month outdated, since PGI has boosted the medium class with three pretty good chassis. Wolverines, Griffins, and Shadowhawks all seem pretty fun for people.

THIS THREAD IS ALSO A STRONG INDICATOR THAT TONNAGE LIMITS DO NOT NEED TO BE INCLUDED IN THE MATCHMAKER. Judgment on that always needed to be reserved until they incentivized the medium class in some way. Chicken and egg folks, chicken and egg.


Dragon is a heavy, in game and TT. What are you even saying.

#45 Remarius

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 11:52 PM

View PostMolossian Dog, on 27 December 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

o7

After the TBT-7M I played most games in the AWS-9M. Even back in the days before the hitbox adjustments.
I know what an uphill struggle it can be to make old Marik stand-bys work. But someone has to do it.


Posted Image

Aggrieved Mechs unite!


Impressive but not sure comparing a solo player with a obvious premade 4 man is exactly a straight comparison. ;)

As much as I love mediums some builds are a straight liability. An almost untouched blackjack with 3 flamers and a large laser cost us a skirmish match the other night as he was mostly ineffective in supporting the surviving assault in a 2 vs 2 end fight. Of course it didn't help that with literally 30 seconds on the clock he decided to try a long flank and left the assault solo at which point the heavy/assault on the other side realised what had happened and bum rushed the assault. Quid pro quo I can drop screen shots here of 4 kills and 990-1,100 damage in 12 man matches so yes a decently played/built medium is highly effective and a very good team asset.

#46 Remarius

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:08 AM

View PostMyomes, on 27 December 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

The Trial Mechs are not representative of Stock mechs. They are all double heat sinked (because PGI ruined heat dissipation mechanics, and being shutdown 24/7 would ruin newbie retention as SHS don't work), and they try to take advantage of a specific range setting. The Blackjack is probably the most cheesy trial mech available, and is not representative of medium mechs as a whole.

the 9M awesome has several improvements over the other variants. For one, it can fit larger engines than the other variants, which makes no game sense at all, and it comes stock with endo and DHS and an XL engine to fit on so many more heatsinks.

that's like taking a porsche racing and saying "see, VW bugs aren't so bad!". They may superficially look the same, but they're not.



Im guessing its the AC/20 style.



another case of AC/20 artificially inflating the medium mech viability numbers.




Right. You're saying they'll only be useful once METAGAME restrictions are placed on it.

In a no-holds-barred environment, taking anything middle weight is sub par.


The sheer amusement of someone whining about AC 20's on mediums "artificially inflating" results and then complaining about incoming weight restrictions as metagaming is hilarious.

Coincidentally, only one of my top 5 medium performers has an AC20 so even more of a failure.

The only environment I can ever see a medium being less optimal is in a skirmish battle and those are the most meta-gamey cheesy battles imaginable atm. Quid pro quo go into conquest or assault and the reverse is often true.

#47 Turist0AT

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:26 AM

Nope and ive been piloting Trenchies and super slow Shawk and Kintaro.
But ppl have complained on my Stalker Misery(it has 3 flamers for those facehuggers) build, that i later put on enemy base and killed two mediums and an atlas.

#48 Dan Nashe

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:40 AM

Never come up in my 1000+ medium games.
(Mastered 3xCNT, 3xHBK, 3xTBT, 3xSHD).
(In contrast, I've only also mastered 1 RVN, 1 JNR, 1 SPDR, 3xCTFs, 3xHGNs, and 3xATL, so as many mediums as other things combined).
Lights can be a real PITA for new players.
And the way the match maker works it is true that it considers 2xmediums equivalent to 1 heavy + 1 Light.

But of the factors that determine the outcome of a random match, having 2 mediums when they have 1 heavy and 1 light is almost never going to be the deciding factor in the match. Random guys #10, 11, and 12 deciding to peek around the SAME corner, one at a time, as each of them get blasted, is far more likely to matter :-p.

And the matchmaker is so random that it's not really worth thinking about. In a perfect 12 v 12 coordinated world, mediums are maybe not super optimal, but this is random drop land, telling someone not to take a medium is like telling someone not to take a Boar's Head. Yeah, the DDC might be a better choice in a super competitive game, but who cares? The boar's head melts face just fine. And anyone taking a locust is hurting the team more, but I'm not going to yell at players for having fun in an approximately properly built locust. (If you put a 100 STD in a locust, you ARE doing it wrong though).

#49 Myomes

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 01:14 AM

View PostRemarius, on 28 December 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

The sheer amusement of someone whining about AC 20's on mediums "artificially inflating" results and then complaining about incoming weight restrictions as metagaming is hilarious.

Coincidentally, only one of my top 5 medium performers has an AC20 so even more of a failure.

The only environment I can ever see a medium being less optimal is in a skirmish battle and those are the most meta-gamey cheesy battles imaginable atm. Quid pro quo go into conquest or assault and the reverse is often true.


you're quite stupid. I wasn't whining about AC20, if anything, it'd be a whine that mediums just arent competitive without spamming AC/20.

Weight restrictions ARE a metagame tool. The same way rules against shoving or eye gouging are metagame tools for basketball. They enforce particular playstyle to stylize the game into something the players and spectators want. Without those metagame rules, one team would just say "hey, why work so hard" and break the other sides hands and then win by other team having to forfeit due to insufficient players.

I want you to google metagame and figure out what it actually means.

Or keep living in your delusional reality. That doesn't bother me.

Edited by Myomes, 28 December 2013 - 01:17 AM.


#50 Dymlos2003

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 01:32 AM

View PostMyomes, on 28 December 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:


you're quite stupid. I wasn't whining about AC20, if anything, it'd be a whine that mediums just arent competitive without spamming AC/20.

Weight restrictions ARE a metagame tool. The same way rules against shoving or eye gouging are metagame tools for basketball. They enforce particular playstyle to stylize the game into something the players and spectators want. Without those metagame rules, one team would just say "hey, why work so hard" and break the other sides hands and then win by other team having to forfeit due to insufficient players.

I want you to google metagame and figure out what it actually means.

Or keep living in your delusional reality. That doesn't bother me.


Not true, Myomes. I main mediums and I have a bunch of different builds. The ones I do the best with are actually SRM and Medium laser builds. With a good team I usually dish out 600+ dmg.

Just because you suck with mediums like you did with that treb a couple of games ago doesn't mean mediums aren't viable.

Mechs are only as good as their pilots.

Edited by dymlos2003, 28 December 2013 - 01:34 AM.


#51 Myomes

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 01:48 AM

View Postdymlos2003, on 28 December 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:


Not true, Myomes. I main mediums and I have a bunch of different builds. The ones I do the best with are actually SRM and Medium laser builds. With a good team I usually dish out 600+ dmg.

Just because you suck with mediums like you did with that treb a couple of games ago doesn't mean mediums aren't viable.

Mechs are only as good as their pilots.


yes, building a DHS non stock treb with srms and pulse lasers, hiding behind heavy mechs, and kill thieving are perfectly valid ways of raising your k/d to look good even though the weight class is bad.

#52 Molossian Dog

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostRemarius, on 27 December 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Impressive but not sure comparing a solo player with a obvious premade 4 man is exactly a straight comparison. ;)
...

Not quite sure what you mean. The screenshot you quoted was a solo game, as were the others in this thread.
When I am in a premade I am in my unit. Which means we are all purple.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

#53 Dymlos2003

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:04 AM

View PostMyomes, on 28 December 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:


yes, building a DHS non stock treb with srms and pulse lasers, hiding behind heavy mechs, and kill thieving are perfectly valid ways of raising your k/d to look good even though the weight class is bad.


Wow really? Believe what you want dude. Just because you suck doesn't mean the class of mech does as well.

View PostMolossian Dog, on 28 December 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Not quite sure what you mean. The screenshot you quoted was a solo game, as were the others in this thread.
When I am in a premade I am in my unit. Which means we are all purple.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.


Some people just can't believe mediums can be killer. A great pilot in a medium can dish out a ton of damage and is a great part of the team.

#54 Greyboots

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:14 AM

View PostDazzer, on 27 December 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Hello all,

Today while PUG-íng I was told at the start of the match that my Medium Mech (Hunchback 4P) was not welcome in the team. That I should play a heavy or assault or a light.

Then that my medium was in fact a liability to the team.

Has any one else had this please ? its was rather nasty.


Yes! I have had exactly this happen. I told em to vote and kick me from the team or remain silent. Let them rage, it's not like they can stop you from playing Mediums. It's just a couple young know-it-alls who have read a few things in the forums and found a convenient target to big-note themselves on.

There is exactly zero reason why you should respect their opinion so just have a laugh and let it go ;). Berks on the internet are never worth getting riled up over.

#55 Mycrus

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:15 AM

Typical low elo trash talker that I out damage in my locust... Pay no heed...

#56 Greyboots

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 02:22 AM

View PostMyomes, on 28 December 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:


yes, building a DHS non stock treb with srms and pulse lasers, hiding behind heavy mechs, and kill thieving are perfectly valid ways of raising your k/d to look good even though the weight class is bad.


This sort of mentality became irrelevant about the time the shadowhawk was released and the AC20 Blackjack Champ mech showed up. Move with the times matey.

#57 Raso

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:23 AM

View PostMyomes, on 28 December 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:


yes, building a DHS non stock treb with srms and pulse lasers, hiding behind heavy mechs, and kill thieving are perfectly valid ways of raising your k/d to look good even though the weight class is bad.


Isn't that how you're supposed to play a medium? You attach yourself to an assault, watch it's flank and act as another set of guns that can chase down fleeing mechs or out flank them to attack their exposed internals. It's like buddy assaults except one of the 2 mechs can actually go somewhere else in under an hour.

One of this game's biggest flaws isn't PGI's lack of balance it's the lack of creativity and tactical diversity among the player base who have all deluded themselves into believing that there is only one, superior way to play the game at any given time. It's a community of cowards with no imagination who wouldn't know a good flaking manuver it it out flanked them and bit them on their rear armor.

And, really with the kill stealing? This is a team game. Besides, it's not my fault my medium lasers have a faster refire rate than the Gauss, AC20s or ERPPCs every assault mech and their mothers are packed with or that I can quickly sneak around to reach the exposed internals the mech is trying to hide from your big guns while you slowly slug along in giant, walking office building.

View PostMycrus, on 28 December 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Typical low elo trash talker that I out damage in my locust... Pay no heed...


I pitty your kind, to be honest. You're victims of your own "success". Backed into a corner you're now forced to only play the same, 3 or 4 builds with the same 3 weapon systems over and over and over again to remain anything close to competitive. You'll never know the joy of chasing down a medium with dual LBXs on a Jager, never feel the heat of a flamer HBK-4P and laugh at how absurdly low your damage is while you blind your foe but not care about it because you're having fun regardless, never feel the joy of a wubed out Dragon with some LPLAS along side and AC or something. All because you have to meta.

Hey, so long as you're having fun, I suppose. Win or lose, I enjoy the mechs I play and that's why I play them. I'd sooner lose face to face with an SRM brawler then win like a punk in some boring dual PPC/Gauss assault cheese. I get no no joy and no fulfillment from sniping. If they removed everything from the game but Highlanders with with stale meta build and the odd ECM Raven because that's what you're supposed to use to win I'd leave MWO and never look back.

Edited by Raso, 28 December 2013 - 06:35 AM.


#58 NuclearPanda

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:45 AM

View PostMyomes, on 28 December 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:


yes, building a DHS non stock treb with srms and pulse lasers, hiding behind heavy mechs, and kill thieving are perfectly valid ways of raising your k/d to look good even though the weight class is bad.


Is the weight class bad, or is it just you? Seems like a large majority of us have no issues with it. If you know how to play the "metagame" (and that includes torso twisting, circle strafing, etc) then mediums are perfectly fine.

#59 Myomes

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 09:20 AM

View PostNuclearPanda, on 28 December 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:


Is the weight class bad, or is it just you? Seems like a large majority of us have no issues with it. If you know how to play the "metagame" (and that includes torso twisting, circle strafing, etc) then mediums are perfectly fine.


Wrong again, sparky. A metagame is the inclusion of something such as tonnage limits or some other metrics to force "equal" confrontations, similar to weight classes in fighting sports.

View PostRaso, on 28 December 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:


Isn't that how you're supposed to play a medium? You attach yourself to an assault, watch it's flank and act as another set of guns that can chase down fleeing mechs or out flank them to attack their exposed internals. It's like buddy assaults except one of the 2 mechs can actually go somewhere else in under an hour.



With no tonnage restriction or anything else, you can do the same in an assault. Two assaults are going to be that much stronger than an assault and a medium.

Let's say theoretically your entire side was 12 assaults, and the other side completely full of medium lovers. Let's further say that these assaults bring multirange systems, LRM + Ac/20 and so on. They are a perfect group of Sun Tzu mechs, by holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near. The assaults can stay in groups of four, separated by a hundred meters or so in a broad formation. Should the medium group try to attack from the side, the assault group on that side can simply aim to the outside of the formation, and then the middle assault group is covering the rears of the one under attack. Mechs who try to "flank" the assault group under attack are going to expose their backs to assault mechs. A poor choice.

Beyond that, simple blob formation works even better if the assaults take and hold a map position that makes artillery and airstrikes hard, if not impossible to hit them. Ridges on alpine is a good example, if they have long range weaponry to pin down enemy mechs.

By the time the team of mediums figures out they're losing guys to an all assault team, they may say "we should run and hide". Well, they can do that infinitely long until time runs out, but unless they actually fight, they're going to lose by having a higher body count. So the idea of chasing down hurt and running enemy mechs doesn't really matter for winning. There's no way they can cycle their team out as and HP buffering system to prevent complete losses and succeed against and all assault force that has good tactics and strategy.

Assault armor keeps you alive longer and gives you more guns. Flanking and other business is simply details that are poorly executed by PuGs.

Edited by Myomes, 28 December 2013 - 09:21 AM.


#60 Raso

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostMyomes, on 28 December 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:


Flanking and other business is simply details that are poorly executed by PuGs.


This one sentence sums up everything wrong with this game and it's community in a nutshell. When people get it in their heads that armor and bigger guns is a superior alternative to tactics and maneuvering and people people play by that creed what you're left with is 2 teams of uniform load outs battling over who can adhere to the game's meta more accurately.

Mediums work fine in pugs. Enjoy your 12 sterile, predictable 12v12 Highlander Warrior Online.





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