46 replies to this topic

[OznerpaG]

if you'r so protective of your KDR just disconnect - you won't see your stats but you don't die, and if you'r last you ain't missing out on assists anyways

[Wintersdark]

GRiPSViGiL, on 28 December 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

I would be okay with a surrender mechanic but plain and simple every game mode is on 15 min timer. If you are not willing to be in game for 15 mins then that is your own bad.

Actually the running out of bounds for retreat is an awesome idea. At least that would mean you would have to make it out of the match adding some thrill to the chase.

I'm prepared to play for 15 minutes. I'm not prepared to spend 10 of those minutes wandering around the map peering in corners or just standing there waiting for the timer. That's decidedly not fun.

Now, if the last opposing player were playing hide and seek? Maybe a sniper light, working on scoring one more kill in that last while? That's awesome. I'm all for that. But if he's just powering down, he's effectively trolling everyone who can't just leave the match.

Again, it's not about right or wrong, or anything of the sort. It's not even about ratting out other players. Even if that's impossible (note that the minimap vanishes when you shut down, btw) people are still going to be screaming abuse. All that matters here is that it's a situation that will incite rage. Whether you think that rage is justified or not doesn't matter, because it'll happen anyways. That rage will result in abuse, and that abuse will make the game less pleasant for everyone - and it'll be less pleasant for everyone while they're already trapped in a long, boring 5-7 minute wait for the timer to run out.

Sure, you can't prevent every situation that's going to **** people off, but you really want to avoid the ones like this that are pretty much guaranteed to **** everyone else in the match off.

It's a pretty basic game design failing here, and it needs to be addressed in some way.


I've got to say, I'm pretty damn disappointed that this is even an issue. Everyone opposed to TDM from the get go - at least from the start of Open Beta, and I assume from back in Closed Beta - cited this as the primary reason to not implement TDM.

They did it anyways, and they didn't bother to address the most frequently cited and painfully obvious problem. It's rather aggravating.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Well this was forewarned like you said that without another way for the match to end it would be this way. So there is no sympathy from me on that.

If I am dead I leave the match and queue up a new mech. If I am alive I have fun hunting the last guy down. If I am the last guy I like being the cheese everyone is chasing. Mostly I am gonna try to spread them out or cycle target's to find an opportunity for a kill. I once almost pulled a win vs 5 v 1 while being heckled by my teammates. I managed to kill 4 of them before being taken out but I had to kite and evade. Even after almost pulling it out people were still nay saying what I was doing that that was the outcome anyway and I still wasted their time.

Screw those people and anyone who does that. As soon as they start you betcha I am trying to drag the time of the match out to spite them. According to the fact that I already engaged and if there is no hope for victory it is well within the rules to go to a corner and power down should that be my choice. Yes powering down shuts down your mini map and sometimes it is necessary to power down to avoid detection but if I am gonna power down due to being neutered or what I just leave the match which I believe ends the match once the DC is registered.

[GRiPSViGiL]

JagdFlanker, on 28 December 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

if you'r so protective of your KDR just disconnect - you won't see your stats but you don't die, and if you'r last you ain't missing out on assists anyways

This just isn't true. It does register a death should you be found and finished even if you exit the match.

It isn't about KD as much as it is about other player's attempting to dictate how people play. If someone finds it fun to play hide and seek with the 6 remaining mechs then I have no problem with that even if they shutdown in some corner. It is kinda exhilarating to be shut down and hear the lumbering footsteps of the enemy fade in and fade out.

The main solution is to allow us to choose which gamemodes we want grouped together to play because I would never play Skirmish if I could choose Conquest and Assault to queue up for.

I like the runnning OB to retreat or simply surrendering ideas as well though.

[Flying Judgement]

GRiPSViGiL, on 28 December 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

This just isn't true. It does register a death should you be found and finished even if you exit the match.

It isn't about KD as much as it is about other player's attempting to dictate how people play. If someone finds it fun to play hide and seek with the 6 remaining mechs then I have no problem with that even if they shutdown in some corner. It is kinda exhilarating to be shut down and hear the lumbering footsteps of the enemy fade in and fade out.

The main solution is to allow us to choose which gamemodes we want grouped together to play because I would never play Skirmish if I could choose Conquest and Assault to queue up for.

I like the runnning OB to retreat or simply surrendering ideas as well though.

so in the end u admit ur not doing anything else just griefing others because u dont like the game mode, and makeing attention while ruinning 23 ppl time just for ur childish selfish reasons...
just disconect dude or die early in the match and u dont have to play in thatt mode any longer. And flod Support@MWO with ur hate instead of doing it in game.
ur behavior and statment is more reportable than any one who tells ur shut down mechs location
Have a good day sir and look for professional help u may need it.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Flying Judgement, on 28 December 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

so in the end u admit ur not doing anything else just griefing others because u dont like the game mode, and makeing attention while ruinning 23 ppl time just for ur childish selfish reasons...
just disconect dude or die early in the match and u dont have to play in thatt mode any longer. And flod Support@MWO with ur hate instead of doing it in game.
ur behavior and statment is more reportable than any one who tells ur shut down mechs location
Have a good day sir and look for professional help u may need it.

Hey welcome to the thread I see you like to dictate how other's play. Do so in a game I am in and yes I will drag it out on you. I have not admitted to solely grieving but nice try. You can read any of my other post's for the other reason's but I will recap one for you. Some people like to be chased and hunted. How is that not a valid way to play and enjoy the game? Oh I know because you don't approve. Well again that is your own problem. Especially when it is well within the code of conduct to do in this game.That is not my favorite thing to do but when it happens and you are zig zaggin your way away with PPC and AC explosions hitting all around you it is fun.

However, the point is so far over your head you would drown if it were water.

[ApolloKaras]

Wintersdark, on 28 December 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'm prepared to play for 15 minutes. I'm not prepared to spend 10 of those minutes wandering around the map peering in corners or just standing there waiting for the timer. That's decidedly not fun.

Now, if the last opposing player were playing hide and seek? Maybe a sniper light, working on scoring one more kill in that last while? That's awesome. I'm all for that. But if he's just powering down, he's effectively trolling everyone who can't just leave the match.


Again, it's not about right or wrong, or anything of the sort. It's not even about ratting out other players. Even if that's impossible (note that the minimap vanishes when you shut down, btw) people are still going to be screaming abuse. All that matters here is that it's a situation that will incite rage. Whether you think that rage is justified or not doesn't matter, because it'll happen anyways. That rage will result in abuse, and that abuse will make the game less pleasant for everyone - and it'll be less pleasant for everyone while they're already trapped in a long, boring 5-7 minute wait for the timer to run out.

Sure, you can't prevent every situation that's going to **** people off, but you really want to avoid the ones like this that are pretty much guaranteed to **** everyone else in the match off.

It's a pretty basic game design failing here, and it needs to be addressed in some way.


I've got to say, I'm pretty damn disappointed that this is even an issue. Everyone opposed to TDM from the get go - at least from the start of Open Beta, and I assume from back in Closed Beta - cited this as the primary reason to not implement TDM.

They did it anyways, and they didn't bother to address the most frequently cited and painfully obvious problem. It's rather aggravating.

I have to agree with Winter. If this guy powers down there is no way anyone who should be reported for calling out a position. That person that powered down is in effect 'griefing' in my eyes. This has nothing to do if I have another mech ready to go. Maybe he's holding up my grind of the one mech I have left to master. I don't want to sit here and watch this guy power down for 10 minutes while the other enemy team looks for this guy. Are you kidding me?


I'm fine with getting reported for calling out his position, I'll have a screenshot with my comment and him shut down in a corner.

Edited by Saxie, 28 December 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Glenfiddich15Yr]

There is an old saying when playing games such as paintball. "The dead don't talk." In other words, dead players shouldn't be able to chat with live players anyways. Many games already implement that rule. As for running and hiding. Other than skirmish, it should be completely legal. In skirmish, I never had an issue. But, the one time I was the lone man with a light mech, I still fought.

I personally would support the mini-map being disabled anyways. The mini-map takes out a lot of the strategy in the game and detracts from team communication. Mech marking should only occur if a player brings up the mini-map and places a "last seen" mark.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Saxie, on 28 December 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

I have to agree with Winter. If this guy powers down there is no way anyone who should be reported for calling out a position. That person that powered down is in effect 'griefing' in my eyes. This has nothing to do if I have another mech ready to go. Maybe he's holding up my grind of the one mech I have left to master. I don't want to sit here and watch this guy power down for 10 minutes while the other enemy team looks for this guy. Are you kidding me?


I'm fine with getting reported for calling out his position, I'll have a screenshot with my comment and him shut down in a corner.

What would your plan be with that screenshot? So long as the person engaged in battle and then run off it is considered within the code of conduct to do so.

If you are worried about someone holding up "your" grind then wouldn't it be smart to have more than one mech to grind?

The Code of conduct is pretty clear what is acceptable and what isn't and treason is not acceptable.

[OznerpaG]

GRiPSViGiL, on 28 December 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

This just isn't true. It does register a death should you be found and finished even if you exit the match.

It isn't about KD as much as it is about other player's attempting to dictate how people play. If someone finds it fun to play hide and seek with the 6 remaining mechs then I have no problem with that even if they shutdown in some corner. It is kinda exhilarating to be shut down and hear the lumbering footsteps of the enemy fade in and fade out.

The main solution is to allow us to choose which gamemodes we want grouped together to play because I would never play Skirmish if I could choose Conquest and Assault to queue up for.

I like the runnning OB to retreat or simply surrendering ideas as well though.

if you are the last guy left and disconnect, the game ends and you don't die

Edited by JagdFlanker, 29 December 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

GRiPSViGiL, on 29 December 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

What would your plan be with that screenshot? So long as the person engaged in battle and then run off it is considered within the code of conduct to do so.

If you are worried about someone holding up "your" grind then wouldn't it be smart to have more than one mech to grind?

The Code of conduct is pretty clear what is acceptable and what isn't and treason is not acceptable.

Lets be clear - I'm talking about some troll in a spider or any mech for that matter shutting down in a corner to preserve his KD, during a skirmish map.

I couldn't care less about the code of conduct in this situation - odds are I'm calling it out. If I get banned because of that - I will have no issue sending an email to support with the screenshot that I have with him shutdown in the corner.

Yes, I'm there to have fun and maybe to grind out the mech. What difference does it make if I have another mech or not thats not the point. I have no intention of watching a guy sit there for 10 minutes while the other team plods around to try to find this guy. This is pointless in conquest and assault, because there are other venues to end the game early.

'Griefer' as defined by Wikipedia:

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

Lets look at this: http://mwomercs.com/...ploitsgriefing/

Seems like a no brainer to me. Doesn't look like shutting down in a corner would be acceptable either.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Saxie, on 29 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Lets be clear - I'm talking about some troll in a spider or any mech for that matter shutting down in a corner to preserve his KD, during a skirmish map.

I couldn't care less about the code of conduct in this situation - odds are I'm calling it out. If I get banned because of that - I will have no issue sending an email to support with the screenshot that I have with him shutdown in the corner.

Yes, I'm there to have fun and maybe to grind out the mech. What difference does it make if I have another mech or not thats not the point. I have no intention of watching a guy sit there for 10 minutes while the other team plods around to try to find this guy. This is pointless in conquest and assault, because there are other venues to end the game early.

'Griefer' as defined by Wikipedia:

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

Lets look at this: http://mwomercs.com/...ploitsgriefing/

Seems like a no brainer to me. Doesn't look like shutting down in a corner would be acceptable either.

As long as you are okay with being reported should you commit treason because you are misinformed concerning grieving in this circumstance. The only way your screenshot would have any validity is if the person never engaged in combat. Doing any damage, collecting any spot assists, or the like is at least engaging in combat. Seems to me you would report someone who had engaged but then hide once there is no chance of winning, which like I have shown, is perfectly fine according to the code of conduct.

Wikipedia definitions are irrelevant because you cannot determine intent unless someone just admits that they are grieving. Even still like I have already explained and is confirmed by this thread. Please review the last post by Egomane who states - "If you fight to the best of your abilities and hide when there is no way for you to win anymore, that is perfectly fine." So you have no basis to report what you consider grieving under anything you have cited. So even if someone admits to grieving if they engaged in combat under the known criteria it still wouldn't be considered grieving.

Linking the in-game exploits/grieving statements do nothing for your argument either. Let's review the part that you are confused about:

The Non-participation abuse clause does not apply to the last player on the losing team because it is perfectly fine for him to hide should there be no chance of victory.

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

Giving a teammates position away is Treason according to the Team Treason clause.

Team Treason
Treasonous provision of information to enemy combatants, also known as "bird-doging" is forbidden. This involves a player using the in-game chat to provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates. While we appreciate that some players may wish to have a round end early by calling out the location of an AFK team-mate, the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing. You may declare a teammate AFK but not their coordinates or position.

Even if someone is deemed AFK you can't even give coordinates EVER. All you can do is let the team know he is "AFK".

I am vehemently against people dictating how other's play. I am glad the rules protect that. Most times people commit treason there is a lot of time on the clock and they don't even give someone a chance to do anything before they start heckling. They just immediately think selfishly that the person is wasting their time. Like it is any more important as the last guys is.

The only way a griever can effect someone is if they let it. I don't let it since there are many things I can do to not let it. If your concern is thinking someone is grieving then you need to figure out a plan to deal with it. The difference that you have multiple mechs is a solution to your own problem of feeling grieved anytime the last mech is hiding. The issue isn't entire pointless on the other game modes because treason happens there as well. At least you have solace in the other methods of victory there though.

People should be lobbying for shorter drop time for Skirmish but it never gets old the irony of it when these situations were foretold.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 29 December 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Rizzwind]

This is way they stated the reasons for not starting of with team death match to begin with. You all wanted it now you have to deal with how it works. To bad so sad. And yes I am that guy enjoy or 7 extra mins.

[Wintersdark]

Rizzwind, on 29 December 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

This is way they stated the reasons for not starting of with team death match to begin with. You all wanted it now you have to deal with how it works. To bad so sad. And yes I am that guy enjoy or 7 extra mins.

I'll point out that people complaining about being stuck waiting - alive mechs included, who don't have the option to leave without penalty - are people who were against TDM from the start, for this very reason.

You can freely drop the "You all wanted it now you have to deal with how it works" line.

Nobody is surprised that this is happening.

[Rizzwind]

Nah I like that line it still works. Like the one about "It's still beta! even after they had the in game store up and running before anything other then one game mode was out.

Edited by Rizzwind, 29 December 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

GRiPSViGiL, on 29 December 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I just came out of a match where they have a Jenner shutdown on River City, we found him because his teammate called him out. I'm okay with that. He's obviously not engaged at that point - there is no one in the world that can argue against that. He's clearly not engaged and is not going to be engaged. There is no tactical reason to run in a cave and shut down - unless you want to pad that KD

And yes, I'm completely okay with getting reported. Odds are I wont be the only one who does it. I think most of the people would recognize that its just wasting people's time by doing this act.

I'm just going to agree we disagree.

Edited by Saxie, 29 December 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Saxie, on 29 December 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I just came out of a match where they have a Jenner shutdown on River City, we found him because his teammate called him out. I'm okay with that. He's obviously not engaged at that point - there is no one in the world that can argue against that. He's clearly not engaged and is not going to be engaged. There is no tactical reason to run in a cave and shut down - unless you want to pad that KD

And yes, I'm completely okay with getting reported. Odds are I wont be the only one who does it. I think most of the people would recognize that its just wasting people's time by doing this act.

I'm just going to agree we disagree.

No telling or speculating why he was AFK and no it isn't always KD. Reason it most likely wasn't in this instance, even still that is speculation n my part, is because if it were he would have powered down to hide his minimap. Granted you can still recognize landmarks and have a grid map handy to commit treason. Hopefully someone reported those who did it though.

I support the rules in place. Should they change to consider nonparticipation in Skirmish abuse even after engagement then I will support that rule. Until then I will always support the right to not be dictated by other's as long as no code of conduct rules are broken.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 29 December 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[Glenfiddich15Yr]

Saxie, on 29 December 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I just came out of a match where they have a Jenner shutdown on River City, we found him because his teammate called him out. I'm okay with that. He's obviously not engaged at that point - there is no one in the world that can argue against that. He's clearly not engaged and is not going to be engaged. There is no tactical reason to run in a cave and shut down - unless you want to pad that KD

And yes, I'm completely okay with getting reported. Odds are I wont be the only one who does it. I think most of the people would recognize that its just wasting people's time by doing this act.

I'm just going to agree we disagree.

I've rarely had any issues in skrimish, but the games are a whole 15 minutes long. Chances are, there are only a few minutes at that point anyways. if you are dead, just leave and play with another mech. If you are alive, just power down yourself and take a bathroom break or something. It's a lot easier than complaining that someone is shutdown somewhere. Overall, I would turn off dead to live chat. The dead shouldn't be able to talk. More often than not, it doesn't root out griefers. It instead gives advantage to their teammates when they mentioned where the enemy was last located.

Edited by Glenfiddich15Yr, 02 January 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Axeman1]

Did this yesterday, one hit away from death to my CT and the only other player left on the other team was a jagger in skirmish, ended up a tie because he couldn't find me

btw skirmish? Useless ******* mode.

Edited by Axeman1, 02 January 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[Roland]

Reitrix, on 28 December 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

The only game mode where hiding Mechs are a problem is Skirmish.

Actually, the most common case where a mech runs off and hides, shut down, is Conquest.