28 replies to this topic

[Ranek Blackstone]

Flipping through Sarna, and working a job where I have WAY too much free time on my hands, I had the strange thought of what could be done to rework BattleTech to bring it somewhat up to date with modern advancements in technology, and to close out some of the weird logic they used.

I mean, seriously. 3025 sees the Helm Data Core make it's rounds in the IS, and nobody thinks to adapt the UAC 5's feeder system to work with an AC20? Or figures out how to make LBX shells for the same gun? There is a fortune to be made for the arms manufacturer that figures out how to do so first, and they seemingly don't care.

ComStar also gets me scratching my head. Transporting anything from Terra to the outer edges of the sphere is a long trip. 17 weeks (500lys, with 30lys per jump in a JS with no battery system installed) of trip. Be quicker, and probably cheaper, to have the HPGs made and serviced by local companies so if something breaks you have spare parts and a means to make more should you really need to. Which would break ComStar's hold on interplanetary communications, because you KNOW the houses would have been using their own HPG networks off the grid so the SLDF couldn't listen in.

Another thing? Nobles are rather bum (evidently the 4 letter word starting with A is filtered) retentive when it comes to genealogies. All of them KNOW just how many people above them need to die before they can claim the throne, and you can bet that sometime since the Cameron Dynasty took power that all the Houses married into it at some point or another. Cameron dies, and the eldest of his closest cousins would take the throne. New top dog, and the SLDF would go forth to crack some skulls and get everyone back in line.

But enough of the weird logic, lets get some thinking done. 'Cause you know what would kill most of BT lore? Cloud computing and data storage. And just like that the IS doesn't fall into a Neo Dark Age and the Clans don't end up with all the cool tech. Oh sure, the Clans would still get things like Elementals, because gene building power armored infantry isn't something most sane people think of, but the overwhelming tech advantage wouldn't be there since most of the data would be stored else where.

Gameplay wise, I think the MWO hard point system would be a welcome addition to CBT. Gives the mechs flavor if you know what I mean. A Hunchback is NOT a Cent, and the Awesome is NOT a Battlemaster, so you shouldn't be able to build them the same just because tonnage is even.

But anyway, enough of what I think, what do you people think?

Edited by Ranek Blackstone, 28 December 2013 - 11:09 PM.

[ShadowDarter]

For starters i do agree with you on the technology, in todays standards it makes perfect sense, but for the BT storyline its a game ruiner, this is a galaxy culture thats one step away from the last dark ages, and heading towards the next. (And no im not talking about that half witted series.) most of the mechs have been handed down for hundreds of years from father to son. New machines are built with automated factories that are only running from the purest of luck.

Things only really changed during the 3050,s when clans attacked.... (simplified but mostly accurate.)

[Skye Storm]

*Edit BLR to Victor, BLR and AWS are not both same tonnage lol.

The hardpoint system did not exist in Battletech other than in the games. I commonly loaded my AWS with ballistics or did the same with my K2 when I built my own mechs.

[CyclonerM]

First: i would not.

Second: Yes, start from the MWO hardpoint system. Scrap it, then start again.

But i would say keep Battletech as it is. It worked for 30 years..

Edited by CyclonerM, 29 December 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[RedDragon]

Ranek Blackstone, on 28 December 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Flipping through Sarna, and working a job where I have WAY too much free time on my hands, I had the strange thought of what could be done to rework BattleTech to bring it somewhat up to date with modern advancements in technology, and to close out some of the weird logic they used.

I mean, seriously. 3025 sees the Helm Data Core make it's rounds in the IS, and nobody thinks to adapt the UAC 5's feeder system to work with an AC20? Or figures out how to make LBX shells for the same gun? There is a fortune to be made for the arms manufacturer that figures out how to do so first, and they seemingly don't care.

The problem here is that you are thinking in AC/s as single weapons. But they are just classes based on damage. So it may be very well possible to have a smaller caliber autocannon with the ultra-function, but it may be hard to implement on large bore cannons. Same today: We have Gatling cannons in smaller and medium calibers, but building a 120mm Gatling is something we can not (in a tactical useful way) produce yet.

Ranek Blackstone, on 28 December 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

But enough of the weird logic, lets get some thinking done. 'Cause you know what would kill most of BT lore? Cloud computing and data storage. And just like that the IS doesn't fall into a Neo Dark Age and the Clans don't end up with all the cool tech. Oh sure, the Clans would still get things like Elementals, because gene building power armored infantry isn't something most sane people think of, but the overwhelming tech advantage wouldn't be there since most of the data would be stored else where.

I guess the point is: What works on a planet wide scale today (and doesn't even exactly – even today we have third world countries that can't produce "simple" technology although the knowledge is common and available on the internet), doesn't work on interstellar scale. Even today, if you would destroy let's say Anniston Army Depot with a nuclear weapon, killing most of the guys working there, the US wouldn't have the capability to repair and maintain their Abrams tanks for long. Sure, they could build another plant, but keep in mind that a full scale (nuclear) war is raging in the mean time. So what would they do? Most likely the same they did in WW2: Build cheaper, simpler weapons en masse to win the war. That's why Germany lost in the end: They wasted resources on weapons that were high tech at the time but difficult in manufacturing and maintaining.
It's perfectly logical IMO to bomb us into a stone age even today. The idea isn't that far fetched, especially considering that travel between planets in BT is rather limited, so there will be a huge gap in development between most of the worlds, especially in times of war.

[Grey Black]

So how would I reboot the franchise? Follow along on a tale.

First of all, I would start everything back in 3025, 4th succesion war period. I know this will smack some people wrong when I say it, but remove the unseen designs. Perhaps build something in its place if we wanted to keep the record sheets, but they cause too many headaches when post-3050 we don't see some of the most common designs anywhere. Also, make it more evident how much damage was done during the first and second wars. While major centers like Tharkad might still have commodities like cell phones, the border worlds are far more primitive to juxtapose the how far humanity has fallen. Perhaps even draw some metaphor with the KT event.

Second, the Clans only had 200 years. I agree they should have superior technology, but it's completely out of line with where should be. Instead, I could see them having different technology, like the ER laser, but it wouldn't deal more damage. Balance the tech a bit better, and the era would be fine.

Finally, I would connect the end of the Jihad to the blackout. Imagine the Blakists ushering in another Succession style war with the current level tech. Humanity would beat itself back into the Dark Ages again, especially when the main factions are the cable companies of the future. Both sides targeting the other's HPGs, mass destruction, leaving a power vacuum to be filled by another entity, like the Republic. Jump forward 300 years and make the Dark Ages not suck. Make the mechs more costly and put the emphasis on combined arms even more.

Outside of that, the lore is fine. Shouldn't be changed too much.

[C E Dwyer]

Why mess with something that works.

The whole point of mechwarrior/battle tech is supposed to be technology on the verge of collapse, new tech is supposed to be virtually impossible, and old tech is kept working by savaging, the mech factories are supposed to be allmost fully automated, the tech skills limited, and many times, its been stated that there was better tech, but its now lost, its why lrms are so short ranged.

start adding tech it becomes hawken..

worse thing that happens was the clans bringing the new tech which somehow they managed to create or mantain while collonising planets.. as everyone knows how well the pilgrim fathers did in their first years and that was just another continent

Edited by Cathy, 29 December 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[ssm]

No need to retcon lore - it's best and most engaging part of Battletech. What it actually needs is major reboot of artwork. It not simply scares off potential new players, it's worse - it makes them cry with laugher.

Edited by ssm, 30 December 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Skylarr]

I like BattleTech Lore the way it is. It gives GMs the ability to create unique games.

But, I would suggest a leap forward. To say 3250.

http://mwomercs.com/...attletech-3250/

http://bg.battletech...p?topic=23781.0

Edited by Skylarr, 29 December 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[Blood Rose]

Reboot battletech?

[Nebfer]

Well I would not do much with the lore, though I would increase the military's by roughly a factor of 5, so 80 battlemech regiments would become 400, With Tank and Infantry regiments being some 10 to 15 times that. The Clans would have a 8x increase to better deal with the manpower differences, Though the Clans would also have a five fold increase in their population as well (around 10 billion total from around 2ish, this would require a larger exodus population though).
Also The Clans would have a new unit between a Cluster and Galaxy, keeping the theme tentatively called "Arm" with the leader an "Arm commander". Both err factions will also have a number of small company and battalion sized forces indicated, for spacial uses, like body guard units, augmentative forces (I.e. a light unit to assist a predominantly assault unit), but mainly these units would be unlisted, to better allow players to create their own small House units and having them be at various locations with out having the conundrum of the actual unit being some where else...

With the additions of the Primitive mechs, I would use them to better facilitate the destruction of the Succession wars had, for example by around 3000 at lest half to two thirds of all active battlemech forces would be either Armed industrial (another thing to get more use...) or a Primitive mech (including primitive versions of more modern mechs). By 3025 new lines starting to come online the numbers of proper battlemechs start increasing once again, furthered along by the discovery of the Helm core. By 3049 the job was not done yet, many of the primitive mechs still remaining are stationed at quite out of the way places like say the Steiner Combine border waiting for the day to be replaced by a newer more capable mech, and perhaps be handed down to a militia unit...

I would also better flesh out Tank and infantry units as well.

I would modify Aerospace units a bit, Armor mass would go up (around 20x, so ships would have a bit more than tin foil...), fuel mass would also go up (roughly 5x and a lot more variations, so no more "39.5 tons for 90% of the list", the higher end ships would now need like 1,000 tons of fuel a day...), the KF Drive would be decreased in mass to compensate.
Capitals weapons would be equated to .5 kilotons per capital dmg point (ASF and by function battlemech weapons, would be fluffed as for playability, and the targeting of weak spots), Capital ballistic ammo would be 5 times heavier than current.

Battlemechs would gain a free +1 MP to their walking ability to better showcase how battlemechs are better than other combat vehicles, as would protomechs but they would get a +2 to that...

Some weapon balancing ideas would be to drop the mass of all ballistic weapons (sans MGs) by 2 tons, and to give them a enhanced ability to knock down mechs (getting a +2 bonus to their damage value in determining if the unit has taken 20 or more damage).

[Arkatrex]

I would like a reboot with features from Planetside 2 (whole game mechanic) and Eve Online (Skillsystem).
You have all features you want then.

Infantry (where light mechs will be useful, finally!). You are not able to drive an Atlas so soon (you have to learn the skills). You have Bombers (the Flakmechs will be useful, too!).

You can capture structures (like Mech Hangars, Facilities, Depots etc.) and Dropships become important (because of the very big sized maps).

That is what i want! (And i want the immersion of that battletech big bad merciless war thing)

Edited by Arkatrex, 30 December 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Grey Black, on 29 December 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Second, the Clans only had 200 years. I agree they should have superior technology, but it's completely out of line with where should be. Instead, I could see them having different technology, like the ER laser, but it wouldn't deal more damage. Balance the tech a bit better, and the era would be fine.

Well, for the advancement of technology. 200 years is a very long time. If we look back 200 years to 1814 then it was the Era of Napoleon. Weapons consisted of Melee as the main damage dealing weapons. Longbows and muskets for long range hand held weapons. Front loaded Cannons were the heavy artillery. Transportation and cavalry was done by horseback/carriage.

Compared with today; Melee weapons are backup/stealth weapons only. Long range hand held weapons are Sniper rifles and Automatic rifles. Artillery mostly has autoloader functions and can shoot much further than any armies around the 18th century were camped apart during their war engagements. Modern cavalry units use tanks where single mounted Machine guns deal more damage than any cannon of the 18th century (taking into account that the MGs are much more accurate and the single bullets have a higher penetration and fire rate to an iron sphere) and the Tanks have much larger caliber weapons as their main weapon. For transportation we use railways, Airplanes, Diesel/nuclear powered ships, Lorries and much more (Horses are still used in some terrain where vehicles cant work... but this is the absolute exception nowadays).

In terms of the MW franchise, 200 years is more than enough for the clans to improve any weapons where the initial technology is not lost or hidden from the researchers... especially if the researchers can work in peace without interruptions from civil wars or other houses invading every few years and destroying the built up research results.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 30 December 2013 - 03:23 AM.

[Skylarr]

Arkatrex, on 30 December 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

I would like a reboot with features from Planetside 2 (whole game mechanic) and Eve Online (Skillsystem).
You have all features you want then.

Infantry (where light mechs will be useful, finally!). You are not able to drive an Atlas so soon (you have to learn the skills). You have Bombers (the Flakmechs will be useful, too!).

You can capture structures (like Mech Hangars, Facilities, Depots etc.) and Dropships become important (because of the very big sized maps).

That is what i want! (And i want the immersion of that battletech big bad merciless war thing)

We are talking about the BattleTech Universe. Not just the Video Game aspect.

[Skylarr]

Rushin Roulette, on 30 December 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

In terms of the MW franchise, 200 years is more than enough for the clans to improve any weapons where the initial technology is not lost or hidden from the researchers... especially if the researchers can work in peace without interruptions from civil wars or other houses invading every few years and destroying the built up research results.

I feel everyone is forgetting that the Clans are fighting each other all the time. Going after each other to seize anything another Clan may have that would give them the advantage. The Clans do allot to limit Collateral damage, but, it will happen. Also, the Clan Home Worlds have limited resources. You may have the Science Staff to research something, but, if you do not have the material your research is limited.

[Elyam]

BT is just fine when it comes to everything prior to 3060 (I won't speak to the timeline thereafter as I've avoided it).

Your tech assessments are based on a limited knowledge of the lore, which is to be expected when Sarna is your main source. It's a nice general reference but it can't impart the full experience of living and fighting through these eras as FASA developed them (as many of us did). Also, you're making the same mistakes many do when looking at real history: assuming that logically something should be different, or that the choices of people or organizations should have gone otherwise based on some present evaluation of optimal outcome. You're also ignoring human belief, desire, and other emotional motivations that cause decisions to be made by people other than what's technically best.

FASA's original team and the early writers like Keith, Charette and Stackpole knew exactly what they were doing with the lore. Several did an exceptional job applying the tendencies, foibles, exceptionalism and sorrows of human history to a predicted future. And as I've said in other posts, their choices are agnostic towards the subject of 1980s known technology and projections versus those of any upcoming decade.

Edited by Elyam, 30 December 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Lord Letto]

To Bring BT back and make it more Popular, I would like to see the old cartoon air on Teletoon Retro and maybe a newer style cartoon/anime for it, would also help if IGP/PGI fix **** and shape up to fix MWO and make it better then it is for people new to BT, a New BT Game would be nice also (MW5, What MWO was going to be in the first place)

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

PGI has admitted behind the scenes that their weapons management system is bad and handcuffed them into ghost heat for a band-aid fix. That being said, they've also stated to change it would rip the guts out of the game as it stands and would require a reword from the ground up. I don't really believe that, but it's what I've been told.

As for reboot of Online. Start the entire thing at the Exodus and have split servers no clan and inner sphere intermingling until it's time. Go through the wars and lore until 3050 and then start the invasion! Both sides get what they want, both sides play the lore of Clan vs. Clan and IS vs IS and then the Clans make their move. Have a single player missions based game with episodes and co-op missions for lances and 12 mans to complete (novel idea). Umm...make a game instead of a money grab.

Create an app based BT game like Mech Commander and one that's more like an FPS. Have story lines with them and missions (novel idea) and that would interest more people to play

[KingCobra]

I would leave Battletech lore alone starting at 2750 with your character you build your own mechs out of salvage gained on solo/co-op/team missions.You would also be engaged in Solaris style 2v2-12v12 league matches.And of course those matches would lead to a planetary league built by players.

Maps could also be built by players for the game and missions.So first you have a character builder to make a M/F pilot in the battletech universe that can walk the bases buying parts in markets planning campaigns etc. I would also have a matchmaker that you could pick stock load out mechs for play or custom load outs for mission and private matches. PGI forgot one thing in past MechWarrior games the player base ran the planetary leagues and Solaris leagues and did a great job so why change it for battletech?

In the MM I would segregate PUGS and teams into there own queues there would not be the anguish and noob pug killing that MWO players have had to endure.But once a new player decided to move up to private league matches stock or custom then new players are fair game. I have to say MWO did not have to be the boring grind game it was made to be but a quick buck is a quick buck in the bank.

I could go on forever what I would design a Battletech game like but unless there was a IP open to build it and the resources its just a pipe dream.

[Vanguard319]

Grey Black, on 29 December 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

the Clans only had 200 years. I agree they should have superior technology, but it's completely out of line with where should be. Instead, I could see them having different technology, like the ER laser, but it wouldn't deal more damage. Balance the tech a bit better, and the era would be fine.

Think of how much progress humanity made in the last century. We went from horses to automobiles, the telegraph gave way to the telephone, and the internet didn't even exist a generation ago. In 100 years, we went from steam engines to space stations. A person living in the early 21st century would seem alien to someone from the early 20th. In that regards, the Clans having vastly superior technology is believable, especially since the Inner Sphere subjected itself to a series of wars destructive enough to cause technological stagnation.