129 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

You do realize your Elo for a new variant is the same Elo for a new player right?
So yes, essentially you ARE playing all low Elo players

Unless I've misunderstood how Elo works for mm

[New Day]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

In all probability, yes. Most competent players know how to dispatch them relatively easily.

IF they see them first. If the Jager sees you first, you are usually ******.

[SpiralFace]

They are powerful, but not all powerful.

The problem is communicating it in groups. Especially in pugs An AC 40 jager that has already closed the gap and has you at range can pretty much beat you 1v1 because of its cannons. But working with a coordinated team can see them taken out easily.

Those torso's are massive, just aim for the main body till the armor on one side gives way then target fire those locations.

An additional strat would be to gimp its legs and cut down its mobility. They aren't that scary once they are out of AC 20 range.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 29 December 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

You do realize your Elo for a new variant is the same Elo for a new player right?
So yes, essentially you ARE playing all low Elo players

Unless I've misunderstood how Elo works for mm

You have an ELO for each weight class. Whatever you do in the Dragon has the same ELO as the Cataphract. However successful you are in the Light class will have a different ELO than one in the Assault class.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 December 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Eldagore, on 29 December 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

I am also curious how people can come to the conclusion that "high end players can kill them easy, so it is fine".

Actually, I think average players can kill them easily as well. My point was I believe you'll see more and more people getting rid of the AC40's on the field more and more as your Elo creeps up. Based on your description, I don't believe you are experiencing the middle of the curve, let alone the upper levels. It honestly sounds like you are still working your way out of the new-player/below average portion of the curve by playing a more optimized Mech as opposed to a frankenmech and your experience at this point is "oh wow, this is OP" based on who you're playing with vice the majority of the playerbase that has both seen these Mechs for a long time now (again, not a "new trend" as you imply) and learned how to readily handle.

[Varent]

I love how the vast majority of posts on the forums regarding balance are by people playing in low elos. WHen you play at a higher elo you will see its not overpowered at all. Any good player will kill you very easily when you run this build. There is a reason it went out of favor.

[Bors Mistral]

Sandpit, on 29 December 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Unless I've misunderstood how Elo works for mm

Yes, matchmaking rang is given per weight class, not per mech.

I mostly agree with the OP on the AC40s. On smaller and urban maps especially. On alpine ant tourmaline they are much less of a problem, though even if you claim that the AC20 is a short range weapon, with the way AC's work it still packs a decent punch in the 500 meters.

We know that officially there's no convergence in the game, but if you remember some of the Hunchback chassis had an issue where the shoulder mounted weapons aimed a bit off the reticle. Something like that might be necessary to spread out the pinpoint destruction of AC40 builts, if they remain 20 damage per bullet.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Sandpit, on 29 December 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

You do realize your Elo for a new variant is the same Elo for a new player right?
So yes, essentially you ARE playing all low Elo players

Unless I've misunderstood how Elo works for mm

Not variants, weight classes. So, you have four Elo's. The OP is in the same Elo as his mastered Jagers with the AC40 JM6-S.

[tayhimself]

Varent, on 29 December 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I love how the vast majority of posts on the forums regarding balance are by people playing in low elos. WHen you play at a higher elo you will see its not overpowered at all. Any good player will kill you very easily when you run this build. There is a reason it went out of favor.

At the mid Elo where the vast majority of players play based on the distributions previously published by PGI, the AC/40 is a problem. I do far better in an AC/40 K2 than in an 2AC10 + 4ML build. The dual AC10 build had a kdr of around 2.3, while the dual AC20 build has a kdr closer to 4. I don't bother with the Jaeger AC/40 because thats too easy and I don't want to end up in meta hell at the highest Elos.

[Deathlike]

tayhimself, on 29 December 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

At the mid Elo where the vast majority of players play based on the distributions previously published by PGI, the AC/40 is a problem. I do far better in an AC/40 K2 than in an 2AC10 + 4ML build. The dual AC10 build had a kdr of around 2.3, while the dual AC20 build has a kdr closer to 4. I don't bother with the Jaeger AC/40 because thats too easy and I don't want to end up in meta hell at the highest Elos.

Well, you'd have to be a lot more creative to get the same success.

It's unfortunately easier to make meta-compliant builds to sub-optimal mechs to get 70-90% of what you can get in the meta-compliant mechs. There's little room for random fun unless you're willing to not care about the outcome.

[Lukoi Banacek]

tayhimself, on 29 December 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

At the mid Elo where the vast majority of players play based on the distributions previously published by PGI, the AC/40 is a problem.

Why? I play within the "vast majority" portion of the bellcurve and don't agree with this assessment at all. Don't know a single person in my unit who thinks they are OP. They are just a specific threat that needs dealing with and boom, move on to next target.

On a side note I'm a big believer that PGI will need to balance around the middle of the bell-curve simply because that's where they are likely to make the most profit. Simple math really. That's common to many successful MMO's.

[YueFei]

AC/40 Jagers are not as strong against better players because their positioning and map vision and awareness is better. Most newer players, myself included, learned the wrong lesson with regards to taking cover. We first learn that we need to be covered up to be safe, so we stand behind buildings and rocks and hills. You do have to hug cover, yes, but you can't do it in a way that blinds you to what's happening on the map. Because when we can't see what's happening, that's when something like an AC/40 Jager can sneak up on you and lay into ya.

An awful position is where you're just standing out in the open getting blasted. Then you start learning to stand next to things, but you can still end up in bad positions if you can't see what's going on, or you put yourself in a spot that doesn't let you safely attack (you're pinned down), *and* you don't have a safe route for egress.

A decent position is one that provides cover, but allows you to step out to gain LOS to a decent swath of the map. A very strong position would be one that has all that, and also gives you the option to bound across along a *covered* approach to another position to advance and attack, and also has a safe route to retreat along if the enemy tries to push you hard.

Figuring out the difference between an awful position and a merely bad or OK position is easy. It's the nuances of figuring out the difference between a decent position and a great position that's difficult.

We should hope that all players gradually improve their skills and get better and better.

[Lykaon]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

In all probability, yes. Most competent players know how to dispatch them relatively easily.

Only safe way I have seen is 30 point alphas to the side torso from 800+ meters away.And ironicly enough this can also be done on a Jager chassis 2 AC5 2 PPC.

Otherwise what is it? close and hit the side torso and take the XL out hopefully before the 40 point alphas kill you?

Maybe LRM spam? pray for a lack of ECM so this would work.

I played in a 4 man premade with 4 of theses mechs 4 AC 40s. the stratagey was litterly run forward + Alpha the same target = 12/0 win with my lance of 4 Jagers making 9 kills.Next was 12/2 win my lance making 9 kills next match 12/0 my lance made 7 kills next 12/1 my lance made 10 kills with one of our mechs lost.

I didn't see many players who could counter soaking 160 damage to CT.

[Varent]

Lykaon, on 29 December 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Only safe way I have seen is 30 point alphas to the side torso from 800+ meters away.And ironicly enough this can also be done on a Jager chassis 2 AC5 2 PPC.

ilya with three uac will beat it. Gause rifle or ppc from a distance. Ac2 from a distance. Light mechs (provided they know what they are doing).

Or purely if you get over the "builds are op" idea. you can do what most people do in groups. Call out targets, focus fire, play smart.. etc.. etc....

The only reason this build is painful is when you get ambushed by it.

Play smarter not harder....

[Greyboots]

The people trying to defend AC40 jagers... just wow.

THANK YOU ALL for highlighting a major problem with MWO: Short ranged weapons suck because as soon as you get close enough to be in range the chassis all have weaknesses to exploit and are so easy to kill with your long-ranged weapons.

At least that's what you are saying when you extrapolate the comments. Well done all! By being full of rubbish you actually managed to do something good. I'm proud of you all!

All sarcasm aside, I too have tried an AC40 jager and found 90% of the forum waffle about them being "a tradeoff" a load of rubbish. With evenly matched players, an AC40 jager will shred. A good player will know how to compensate for the weaknesses of the chassis and loadout and make it work in a "well above average" fashion for it's weight.

Anyone saying anything else is simply full of it and this isn't even the right question to be asking.

The AC40 jager is the Noob Tube of CoD. It allows anyone to do something good and this, in itself, is not a bad thing. The question is whether it's having a detrimental effect on the game. I would simply say "yes" but then again I say that about the AC-20 in general. The AC-20 is the ultimate noob stomper that, in the hands of a skilled player, remains an overly effective part of many different loadouts. There's simply too many mechs that can't stand up to more than a couple of well placed hits.

Now, PGI have attempted to stop people being alpha'd to death and here's the problem; People still pop out to let off a shot and get hit by 4-6 AC-20 shells. All you have to do is stand multiple AC 20 mechs in roughly the same place and have the players know what they are doing.

Which makes these threads kind of pointless. OK, the AC40 jager highlights the problem but take that away and players will just find a new way to make it happen.

So. If you're doing great in an AC40 jager, congrats. Don't panic either because it's not going to change any time soon. The devs have maneuvered the game into a position where this is a viable form of gameplay to hook the newbies and retain players. Just like pinpoint and ACs being quite overpowered in general.

Wake up and smell the coffee. It's intentional. There's also nothing wrong with it except they'ce ballsed up the other half of the equation; Where things like speed and skill can make other combinations equally viable.

Eventually they'll realize what they've done and AC20's will get a big nerf (as will a couple of other ACs). They won't touch it until after the clans show up simply because they can't afford to have the game in a state of flux when the Clans arrive. Clans are going to be a HUGE issue and I think they're realizing about now that clan tech being OP and "must have" isn't as easy to avoid as they thought it was going to be.

YOur AC40 jager is OP, you know it, but it's safe for now at least.

[Sug]

Started using an ac40 jag yesterday. Its a fantastic ambush much. Very powerful 1v1 and a great close range support mech.

Obviously you can't brawl too much, or go off on your own, or get caught out in the open, etc but if you have a modicum of skill and patience it can be very effective.

I mainly run heavy mechs so I'm in my main Elo range in this mechs and have no issues getting 2+ kills per match. I'm around a 3.0 kdr with this jag so far.

It has it's counters but I was surprised how easy this mech is to use.

[Varent]

Greyboots, on 29 December 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

The people trying to defend AC40 jagers... just wow.

THANK YOU ALL for highlighting a major problem with MWO: Short ranged weapons suck because as soon as you get close enough to be in range the chassis all have weaknesses to exploit and are so easy to kill with your long-ranged weapons.

At least that's what you are saying when you extrapolate the comments. Well done all! By being full of rubbish you actually managed to do something good. I'm proud of you all!

All sarcasm aside, I too have tried an AC40 jager and found 90% of the forum waffle about them being "a tradeoff" a load of rubbish. With evenly matched players, an AC40 jager will shred. A good player will know how to compensate for the weaknesses of the chassis and loadout and make it work in a "well above average" fashion for it's weight.

Anyone saying anything else is simply full of it and this isn't even the right question to be asking.

The AC40 jager is the Noob Tube of CoD. It allows anyone to do something good and this, in itself, is not a bad thing. The question is whether it's having a detrimental effect on the game. I would simply say "yes" but then again I say that about the AC-20 in general. The AC-20 is the ultimate noob stomper that, in the hands of a skilled player, remains an overly effective part of many different loadouts. There's simply too many mechs that can't stand up to more than a couple of well placed hits.

Now, PGI have attempted to stop people being alpha'd to death and here's the problem; People still pop out to let off a shot and get hit by 4-6 AC-20 shells. All you have to do is stand multiple AC 20 mechs in roughly the same place and have the players know what they are doing.

Which makes these threads kind of pointless. OK, the AC40 jager highlights the problem but take that away and players will just find a new way to make it happen.

So. If you're doing great in an AC40 jager, congrats. Don't panic either because it's not going to change any time soon. The devs have maneuvered the game into a position where this is a viable form of gameplay to hook the newbies and retain players. Just like pinpoint and ACs being quite overpowered in general.

Wake up and smell the coffee. It's intentional. There's also nothing wrong with it except they'ce ballsed up the other half of the equation; Where things like speed and skill can make other combinations equally viable.

Eventually they'll realize what they've done and AC20's will get a big nerf (as will a couple of other ACs). They won't touch it until after the clans show up simply because they can't afford to have the game in a state of flux when the Clans arrive. Clans are going to be a HUGE issue and I think they're realizing about now that clan tech being OP and "must have" isn't as easy to avoid as they thought it was going to be.

YOur AC40 jager is OP, you know it, but it's safe for now at least.

ilya with three uac will beat it. Gause rifle or ppc from a distance. Ac2 from a distance. Light mechs (provided they know what they are doing).

Or purely if you get over the "builds are op" idea. you can do what most people do in groups. Call out targets, focus fire, play smart.. etc.. etc....

The only reason this build is painful is when you get ambushed by it.

Play smarter not harder....

Sidenote - Everything can be countered. Nothing is op except team work and communication.

Edited by Varent, 29 December 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Greyboots, on 29 December 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

The people trying to defend AC40 jagers... just wow.

THANK YOU ALL for highlighting a major problem with MWO: Short ranged weapons suck because as soon as you get close enough to be in range the chassis all have weaknesses to exploit and are so easy to kill with your long-ranged weapons.

At least that's what you are saying when you extrapolate the comments. Well done all! By being full of rubbish you actually managed to do something good. I'm proud of you all!

All sarcasm aside, I too have tried an AC40 jager and found 90% of the forum waffle about them being "a tradeoff" a load of rubbish. With evenly matched players, an AC40 jager will shred. A good player will know how to compensate for the weaknesses of the chassis and loadout and make it work in a "well above average" fashion for it's weight.
YOur AC40 jager is OP, you know it, but it's safe for now at least.

I can name several builds that can wreck face at any range — all of which can be fitted on dozens of mechs and are just as powerful as an AC/40 build (some more so)...and they do not rely on AC/20's or PPCs. But I won't because I like to keep my "Overpowered" builds secret.

In other words, yes the AC/40 Jag is powerful; nobody is denying that it packs a wallop. What people are saying is, much of that wallop is diminished when playing against experienced players that are familiar with the chassis and those that know how to avoid being ambushed.

As for the AC/20 as weapon, in general it should be feared and respected on the battlefield because in the right hands it can be devastating. This is, and always has been, a part of BattleTech.

[Oppresor]

Yes I know it's probably not canon; but what about an actual AC40? The idea of a BFG sounds interesting to me.

[Nightcrept]

Elo does not work together with the matchmaker in the way that most of you guys seem to think.

The matchmaker puts together teams of a combined elo score as close together as possible.

So if it needs a player with a elo score of 1 to fill out the team it will put him on the team even if all the other players are uber super omg im elite types. So talking about the persons elo score as indicating their oppositions skill level is hilarious and untrue.

Elo in general is a broken game mechanic in a combined arms game of pugs and pre-mades because players in a pre-made will have a naturally inflated elo score due to the nature of the mathcmakers use of elo.

So the avg pug with a score of 500 will be comparable to a pre-made player with a much higher score unless the game separates the elo scores by solo and non-solo drops.


So now that the elo strawman argument is crushed.

The ac-40 mechs are in certain maps and in certain situations very very powerful. In others they are very very weak. Elo has nothing to do with that it is the nature of that mech and loadout.

Ironically enough that is how it is for most mechs in this game.