129 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Agreed the situation plays a large part and a lot of it also just depends on who you are fighting. In a pug match its usually pretty effective even against good players. Now run across a 4man by yourself and you are screwed but it doesn't matter what you brought in that case. I wouldn't rank it up there with poptart highlanders because they also have high pinpoint damage but also more armor and range but its pretty good in pugs.

Oppresor, on 29 December 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Yes I know it's probably not canon; but what about an actual AC40? The idea of a BFG sounds interesting to me.

I'm all for new weapons but I don't think that will happen any time soon. There is the Clan UAC20 though.

Edited by dario03, 29 December 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Nightcrept, on 29 December 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Elo does not work together with the matchmaker in the way that most of you guys seem to think.

The matchmaker puts together teams of a combined elo score as close together as possible.

So if it needs a player with a elo score of 1 to fill out the team it will put him on the team even if all the other players are uber super omg im elite types. So talking about the persons elo score as indicating their oppositions skill level is hilarious and untrue.

Elo in general is a broken game mechanic in a combined arms game of pugs and pre-mades because players in a pre-made will have a naturally inflated elo score due to the nature of the mathcmakers use of elo.

So the avg pug with a score of 500 will be comparable to a pre-made player with a much higher score unless the game separates the elo scores by solo and non-solo drops.


So now that the elo strawman argument is crushed.

The ac-40 mechs are in certain maps and in certain situations very very powerful. In others they are very very weak. Elo has nothing to do with that it is the nature of that mech and loadout.

Ironically enough that is how it is for most mechs in this game.

Trust me, if you use the AC/40 jag long enough and start racking up wins, you'll start getting your face rolled by pre-mades and skilled PUGs in quick order...no matter what map you're on (if you're not already...looking at you Matchmaker).

But yeah, I totally agree about Elo being a broken mechanic...at least the way it's being used in this game.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 29 December 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Basically, the longer you rely on the AC/40, you'll notice that the kills aren't as easy as they used to be when you start playing experienced players.

[JSparrowist]

The level of elitism displayed by this community is nauseating.

Congratulations, "pros". You're "competitive" in a horribly unbalanced game! Please excuse me while I kneel before your awesomeness! For you are the TRUE Mech AND Forum Warriors!

Back to reality, the OP is absolutely right in that the AC40 Jager is an easy mode mech. It's broken.

[Varent]

JSparrowist, on 29 December 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

The level of elitism displayed by this community is nauseating.

Congratulations, "pros". You're "competitive" in a horribly unbalanced game! Please excuse me while I kneel before your awesomeness! For you are the TRUE Mech AND Forum Warriors!

Back to reality, the OP is absolutely right in that the AC40 Jager is an easy mode mech. It's broken.

so what your saying is....

because im not good, you should alter this weapon so its then 'broken' because I dont understand how to counter it.... instead of learning and getting better at the game and learning how to defeat it?

this... is the type of opinion that is the downfall of gaming in general

[Greyboots]

Varent, on 30 December 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:


ilya with three uac will beat it. Gause rifle or ppc from a distance. Ac2 from a distance. Light mechs (provided they know what they are doing).


To which I say "so what". A 3 UAC illya is hardly an underpowered combo to throw into the mix.

Quote

Or purely if you get over the "builds are op" idea. you can do what most people do in groups. Call out targets, focus fire, play smart.. etc.. etc....

Well, precisely. Which is exactly what I pointed out I might add. Whether 2 AC20's are on the same mech or across multiple mechs? In the end it makes little difference.

Quote

The only reason this build is painful is when you get ambushed by it.

Not at all. A twin AC20 has an advantage in that it WILL hit the same location with both shells in the hands of a skilled player. This will quickly make a hole, adding to the effectiveness of many other weapons because crits amplity damage on more than one weapon in MWO.

Quote

Play smarter not harder....

Precisely, and I do. Which is why I understand that AC20's are straight up OP.

My only real problem with Jagers is that they're twin arm mounted and the arms are high. Against AC20's on most mechs, I'll attack when I know I have a terrain advantage. I can either be high or low preventing torso-mounted AC20's from getting a bead on me or have something in-between us on mechs like the Cataphract which has a lot of DPS but exceptionally low arms.

Not so with a twin AC20 jager. High or low, or something inbetween us, both those AC 20's can see me. So the problem isn't that it's only good when it ambushes me, it's that I can't ambush it back unless I'm driving something small and fast.

Quote

Sidenote - Everything can be countered.

Well yes, but that doesn't mean that some things are FAR more easily countered than others. There is a Meta for a set of reasons and that's because some things are OP compared to others. The "Meta" is simply the most effective combination of OP aspects of a game that is currently available.

Quote

Nothing is op except team work and communication.

So this is very very wrong. Sorry, but it is.

[Varent]

Greyboots, on 29 December 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Varent, on 30 December 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:


ilya with three uac will beat it. Gause rifle or ppc from a distance. Ac2 from a distance. Light mechs (provided they know what they are doing).


To which I say "so what". A 3 UAC illya is hardly an underpowered combo to throw into the mix.


Well, precisely. Which is exactly what I pointed out I might add. Whether 2 AC20's are on the same mech or across multiple mechs? In the end it makes little difference.


Not at all. A twin AC20 has an advantage in that it WILL hit the same location with both shells in the hands of a skilled player. This will quickly make a hole, adding to the effectiveness of many other weapons because crits amplity damage on more than one weapon in MWO.


Precisely, and I do. Which is why I understand that AC20's are straight up OP.

My only real problem with Jagers is that they're twin arm mounted and the arms are high. Against AC20's on most mechs, I'll attack when I know I have a terrain advantage. I can either be high or low preventing torso-mounted AC20's from getting a bead on me or have something in-between us on mechs like the Cataphract which has a lot of DPS but exceptionally low arms.

Not so with a twin AC20 jager. High or low, or something inbetween us, both those AC 20's can see me. So the problem isn't that it's only good when it ambushes me, it's that I can't ambush it back unless I'm driving something small and fast.


Well yes, but that doesn't mean that some things are FAR more easily countered than others. There is a Meta for a set of reasons and that's because some things are OP compared to others. The "Meta" is simply the most effective combination of OP aspects of a game that is currently available.



So this is very very wrong. Sorry, but it is.

K.

[Bhael Fire]

JSparrowist, on 29 December 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

The level of elitism displayed by this community is nauseating.

It's not elitism when you're trying to help inexperienced players learn the angles on the game.

I am by no means an elite player, nor am I highly competitive (I play in PUGs almost exclusively)...I've just been playing the game for a long time.

But when I see people complaining about weapons balance and how [insert weapon] are overpowered and broken, I immediately assume that they are new players or simply haven't quite figured out the weaknesses of the weapon.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 29 December 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[Jaguar Prime]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Basically, the longer you rely on the AC/40, you'll notice that the kills aren't as easy as they used to be when you start playing experienced players.

This.

Some people have to see for themselves. OP, Keep rolling through the new and inexperienced players with it. You will eventually see what Bhael is talking about. Especially when you run into a group that knows how to play without having to hump the enemy to shoot them.

[Varent]

Jaguar Prime, on 29 December 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

This.

Some people have to see for themselves. OP, Keep rolling through the new and inexperienced players with it. You will eventually see what Bhael is talking about. Especially when you run into a group that knows how to play without having to hump the enemy to shoot them.

seconded. sadly no new player will accept this as an answer it seems. Maybe its like growing up.. you always assume you know everything in the younger years until your older and realize what a dumb*** you truly were.

[Dirkdaring]

You think 2xAC20 is bad? Wait for clans to hit you with 2x Ultra/AC20.

I run a 2x AC20 Jager because they over nerfed laser weapons too much. Ballistics have far more DPS.

Edited by Dirkdaring, 29 December 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

This thread is funny, a bunch of people acting like they know how the matchmaker works and their own ELO scores.

It's freaking hilarious.

[YueFei]

JSparrowist, on 29 December 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

The level of elitism displayed by this community is nauseating.

Congratulations, "pros". You're "competitive" in a horribly unbalanced game! Please excuse me while I kneel before your awesomeness! For you are the TRUE Mech AND Forum Warriors!

Back to reality, the OP is absolutely right in that the AC40 Jager is an easy mode mech. It's broken.

It's not a matter of elitism or snobbery. It's a matter of more successful players saying that AC/40 is not overpowered, that there are tools to overcoming it, and that they have done it. All players should continue to learn and improve, so folks should be able to learn how to counter it.

I wouldn't consider something broken unless all the top players wracking their brains for months still cannot figure out how to counter something without using it themselves.

Let go of your pride for a moment and acknowledge that maybe there are still nuances to the game that you haven't learned yet, eh?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

YueFei, on 29 December 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

It's a matter of more successful players saying that AC/40 is not overpowered, that

So everyone who says they are in a high ELO and super awesome and says they don't have problems with AC/40 mechs are successful and we just take their word for them being the best players ever and that's the end of it?

This is very anecdotal at best. I know for a fact during the multiple LRMpocalypses we've had, that players would come in and say "Ah LRM's are fine, just use cover and it's not an issue, I'm awesome at this game".

Does that mean we should have left LRM's how they were?

[Dock Steward]

The problem I have with this whole thread and others like it, is that they make it sound like there's something wrong with the Jager. There's nothing wrong with the Jager, or the Cat K2. Having 2 ballistic hardpoints in separate locations with room for an AC20 isn't a problem. There are fundamental problems with gameplay that make dual AC20's arguably too powerful, foremost is convergence, second is front-loaded damage. There are numerous ways to address these other issues, but when you rail against one specific build (even though it may exemplify your core concerns) it not only makes you seem like a whiner who had one too many bad games, and it gets everyone who plays that chassis in a defensive tizzy.

[Zordicron]

KK, so I am back, havent dropped though. A few things

LOL at people saying they are helping poor inexperianced me. My ELO must be really low, and I am playing against cadet bonus pugs right? Yeah, except I have all phracts mastered, 3 jagers, 3 dragons, 3 catapults all mastered out, my Tbolts are 2/4 and 3/4 elited as of right now. my Protector has enough XP to buy the expensive half of elite tree but i dont have other orions yet. My KD is in the green by a fair bit, and is also in the green on 95% of the 60 whatever mechs I own. My heavy class ELO I am sure is well enough established that that entire point is moot. my green KD ratio, some of them pushing 3:1, were all made with ZERO cheese or meta builds. I havent run much PPC since phracts LAST MARCH when HSR didnt exist. I hate guass rifles. I load my mechs with things like LBX 10, AC5's before they were cool, ERLL before they were cool, etc. I load them with what was fun, and I did well, because I am not some {Dezgra} like you all want me to be.

The "its all communication" and the "my unit doesnt have a problem" LOL, your "unit" wouldnt have a problem with anything, because voice com > any mech loadout ever.

So lets take a step away from our awesome sauce dispenser full of l33t juice, and consider maybe I am a knowledgable "high middle ELO" player that could be as high an ELO as I want but choose not to make PPC HGN poptarts on 12 mans because I like other guns, and lots of mechs, and lots of guns and mechs and lasers. Then lets look at my OP how I wrote it, as a person annoyed his 100% pug mates can get blown away by a complete no skill hack runing this thing, and I wanted to see just how rediculous it was. And I want you to actually read what I wrote about my matches.

I played a match where I completely ignored positioning and cover, on the worst map for positioning and cover(alpine) and totally rambo'd into a group of 10 enemy unassisted. And I got 2 kills(both heavy) and exposed internals on an assault.

I played a match on caustic, a very hot map, and 100% ignored heat mitigation, and just shot as much as possible, and got kills and significant dmg for assists by opening up other mechs critically on torso.

My very first match, was on a map that according to one poster in this thread, is bad for close combat, and is also very hot, and scored 4 kills with no basics even unlocked.


I agree with many, there are LOTS of viable builds, and I know this because I own LOTS of viable builds, and many of them are certainly not remotely close to meta stuff. I myself know how to deal with AC40 jager, or ac40 cat or gaussapult or gaussaphract or whatever. HOWEVER, much like the old splatcats of legend(not really that long ago, but it feels like it was) IMO, no 65 ton mech should draw the entire attention of an enemy force because said enemy force will otherwise be criplled by it. Splatcat was a very similar beast, with JJ to boot. Kill it first or become lunch for it. No matter how bad of tactics or lack of awareness or whatever is considered, the stupid things require immediate attention, or your team suffers dire consequences.

If we were talking about an Atlas, I would be less inclined to show concern, because an Atlas is supposed to be a madhouse of pain. But we are talking about mech(s) that in cannon are fire support, mid-long rang mostly DPS loadouts. I am OK with mechs breaking from cannon in loadout, it is a videogame in real time without to hit rolls, BUT I think the fact this type of attention is required of a single 65 ton mech is a bit off kilter.

Again, the actual loadout should be fine. But the mechanics of the autocannons is fundamentally an issue. they need to be set up with missile tube style hardpoints, where different chassis can mount different calibre AC, but still mount any class AC. Single Shell AC20 should be found on assault class, and specialty things like YLW. All Else= smaller calibre which means multi shots for the AC20 class autocannon. This fixes the pinpoint dmg issue, and at the same time diversifies the chassis.

So thats my 2 C-bills. I am sure it will be countered with "U R a n00b shooting at n00bs" again. But whatever, I am sure some readers can view this thread without getting ********.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Basically, the longer you rely on the AC/40, you'll notice that the kills aren't as easy as they used to be when you start playing experienced players.

^^^This...

Varent, on 29 December 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

so what your saying is....

because im not good, you should alter this weapon so its then 'broken' because I dont understand how to counter it.... instead of learning and getting better at the game and learning how to defeat it?

this... is the type of opinion that is the downfall of gaming in general

^^^And this.

[Entail]

AC40's jagers are food for poptarters.
AC40's jagers are also food for my mediums.

If no one gets close to an ac40 jager, an ac40 jager is useless. They are extremely easy to take down, ,
but they can be played incredibly effectively by a skilled pilot.
An undetected or ignored or unfocused ac40 jager is most dangerous. Good players will take note to
dispose of these glass mechs easily.

Edited by Entail, 29 December 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

xMEPHISTOx, on 29 December 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

^^^This...



^^^And this.

You do realize the matchmaker does not match experienced players against experienced players right? If it worked like that we'd never see the horror stories that are so common on these boards.

[Kenyon Burguess]

nice writeup eld, but save your breath till next summer, uac80 builds are coming.