109 replies to this topic

[Skyfaller]

There is a noticeable imbalance between these weapons.

The basic argument behind the reason why lasers do less damage at much less range, generate much more heat and 'lase' damage delivery is that ballistics weigh more and require ammo.

That, however is incorrect. The mechs that carry ballistics as their primary weapons are not limited in tonnage nor slots to equip said heavy cannons...quite the opposite, they are severely penalized if they load lighter ballistics (aka dual AC20 jager vs 4~6 AC2 jager vs 6MG jager) because the nature of the ballistic weapons themselves increase exponentially the larger the caliber with little to no penalty.

In contrast, lasers suffer the opposite. The larger the laser the higher the penalty for using them.


So the question is what makes ballistics this way?

1- Pinpoint front-loaded damage. Aka an AC20 delivers 20 damage in one hit, instantly.
2- Low heat. To deliver 20 damage a large laser mech would have to spend twice the heat.

This in mind, the AC20 does have shorter range...but it can deliver front loaded damage out to an equivalent range to a large laser. The 20 dmg @ 270m of the AC20 becomes 10 dmg @ 540..which matches the large laser's 9dmg max range. Out to 800m both the large laser and AC20 drop to ~2 damage.

...but the AC20 still delivers that damage instantly in one hit. The laser would need to stay on target for 1 second for the lase to work.


This instant damage application at equivalent ranges and far less heat cost is what makes lasers absurdly less practical than ballistics. The application of damage instantly is the source of the imbalance. Both combined create the current problem.

The solution would be this:

Make the ballistics fire 10 rounds per click during 0.5s or 1s. These 10 bullets will add up to the ballistic weapon's damage. The heavier the weapon the longer the 'burst' time.

Aka, an AC20 would fire 10 bullets of 2dmg each during 1 second.
....... an AC2 would fire 10 bullets of 0.2dmg each during 0.5 seconds.

This system would have the ballistics in-line with lasers in term of effect on the battlefield. Aka no more instant-damage delivery to a single mech component unless the aim is held true during the burst.

We know this system works. The AC2 macro literally is a window into this. By macro'ing 5 AC2s to chain fire every 0.2s from the next AC2 in the line the mech ends up firing 5 bullets in a burst that lasts half a second ... the equivalent of an AC10 broken down into laser-like damage bursts.

Unlike the AC2 macro however, the modified 'burst' ballistics would have their refire time come into play. An AC20 would still have its 4 seconds refire delay but it will be firing for very low heat (compared to 2 large lasers) and better range... but it wont deliver 20 damage to one component of the target mech UNLESS the aim is held true.

TT had damage be 'random hit location' unless you specifically had an upgrade in the mech to let it improve its CHANCES of hitting a particular location. Lasers do this in MWO via their 1s lase. Ballistics need to do this as well via a burst fire.

[Sandpit]

...... I'm glad someone finally got the. ... oh forget it

[Lokesh]

Another one? REALLY?


Two simple tweaks:

1) Shorten the falloff on the AC20 to 2x the range (not 3x like other ballistics).

2) POSSIBLY decrease the number of rounds per ton for ballistic ammo.


Pinpoint is fine. Heat is even fine.

[Skyfaller]

That does nothing lokesh.

The AC20 issue is its massive single hit pinpoint damage for the same heat of a med pulser. Dual AC20 jagers dont even bother with ghost heat given the fact that they are still delivering 40 damage pinpoint.

Ac5 and AC10 have the same issue. Compared to lasers they have too many benefits and these benefits increase the bigger the gun you use. You are FAR better off loading a single AC20 than you are loading 6 AC2s in a jager-D. Heat wise you're better off and impact-wise you're insanely better off.

Burst fire would scatter the damage of an AC20 enough so that pinpoint damage is not as overwhelming in this game. In TT the weapons hit random locations .. in MWO you can pinpoint. That is where ballistics just make lasers obsolete for damage dealing in comparison. Making the TT random-hit location be introduced by a burst fire is a very good compromise.

...and again, we know it works thanks to the AC2 macro fire.

[Sandpit]

Lokesh, on 30 December 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Another one? REALLY?


Two simple tweaks:

1) Shorten the falloff on the AC20 to 2x the range (not 3x like other ballistics).

2) POSSIBLY decrease the number of rounds per ton for ballistic ammo.


Pinpoint is fine. Heat is even fine.

and I'm the *** for pointing it out every
Single
Dam
Time

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 30 December 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

and I'm the *** for pointing it out every
Single
Dam
Time

That still doesn't prevent the massive alpha's. UAC20s are going to be fun...now imagine two of those.

Now, since the engine likely can't handle multiple projectiles at once(possibly the SRM issue) perhaps halving the damage, and double the ROF would be a nice compromise? Still a DPS and brawling king, less suited to poptarting (which dual AC5 will still reign).

[Skyfaller]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

That still doesn't prevent the massive alpha's. UAC20s are going to be fun...now imagine two of those.

Now, since the engine likely can't handle multiple projectiles at once(possibly the SRM issue) perhaps halving the damage, and double the ROF would be a nice compromise? Still a DPS and brawling king, less suited to poptarting (which dual AC5 will still reign).

Yes the engine can. It does it every time the laser is fired. You have noticed the hit 'puffs' on the ground as you slice a laser through it have you?

[Mcgral18]

Skyfaller, on 30 December 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Yes the engine can. It does it every time the laser is fired. You have noticed the hit 'puffs' on the ground as you slice a laser through it have you?

That is hitscan though, not a projectile. The calculation is done instantly, and doesn't have to calculate the location of the projectile, and the mech being hit.

We could try it, although I've heard of hits not registering even with 4 projectiles (dual AC5/dual PPC combo).

At the same time, I took some SRMs out tonight and they were registering rather well, so perhaps there has been improvement in HSR/hit registration when I wasn't paying attention.

[SerratedBlaze]

Wow another one. Good that the topic is staying up I guess since everyone and their brother has posted a "make ballistics burst" thread.

And I don't disagree. Though I would make the burst time shorter, and with fewer projectiles.

The thing that is strong about lasers that this post fails to recognize is that lasers deal damage instantly (opposed to leading and travel time) and then allow you to have feedback on where you hit and let you correct your aim.Miss with an AC/20 and its 0 damage for another 4 sec.

[Fooooo]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

That is hitscan though, not a projectile. The calculation is done instantly, and doesn't have to calculate the location of the projectile, and the mech being hit.

We could try it, although I've heard of hits not registering even with 4 projectiles (dual AC5/dual PPC combo).

At the same time, I took some SRMs out tonight and they were registering rather well, so perhaps there has been improvement in HSR/hit registration when I wasn't paying attention.

He's right.

Hitscan requires less uhmm...cycles? cpu power ? whatever, its less costly in terms of calculations for the server. Its why most older fps were all hitscan really afaik. (bar if the game had missiles etc)

I'd still like to do it as its imo the best option without fiddling with convergance. (which wont solve a single weapon doing pinpoint anyway) That or making ballistics hitscan also......sort of like long range MG's if you get me......

However I'd wait until the servers are upgraded to something decent.........as they are having troubles now, and have been since CB.......

Edited by Fooooo, 31 December 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

That still doesn't prevent the massive alpha's. UAC20s are going to be fun...now imagine two of those.

Now, since the engine likely can't handle multiple projectiles at once(possibly the SRM issue) perhaps halving the damage, and double the ROF would be a nice compromise? Still a DPS and brawling king, less suited to poptarting (which dual AC5 will still reign).

I am pretty convinced the engine can do it, whether their servers can do it, might be another matter... And they do manage with AC/2s. I am not convinced that the SRM problem is just because they have so many projectiles. Wouldn't that mean the problem would also appear when a lot of players are shooting at the same time? An SRM6 contains only 6 missiles, three people firing Dual PPCs produce the same number of projectiles.

Maybe it has more to do with the projectile speed - due to the longer flight duration, errors due to lag have a larger impact.

[xe N on]

Simple fix: increase DHS to 2.0.

[MustrumRidcully]

xe N on, on 31 December 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Simple fix: increase DHS to 2.0.

Unpossible. It would allow a Jenner to core an Atlas in 3 seconds! That's confirmed fact by PGI!

[xe N on]

MustrumRidcully, on 31 December 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Unpossible. It would allow a Jenner to core an Atlas in 3 seconds! That's confirmed fact by PGI!

This would my atlas allow to mount my atlas 4-6 large laser and core the Jenner in 1 seconds.

Beside, my Jenner-F can already core an Atlas in 3 seconds anyway ;p

Edited by xe N on, 31 December 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

That still doesn't prevent the massive alpha's. UAC20s are going to be fun...now imagine two of those.

I don't think uac20 is going to work with the ghost heat on the ac20's . There is no way 2 of these would work.

[Ezazel]

Buff lasers and missiles if you want, I'm fine with that. Add armor/internal hitpoints to the mechs if you want to increase their survivability. But don't nerf AC20. This game already suffers from the fact that most weapons are ridiculously bad.

[Lokesh]

Sandpit, on 30 December 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

and I'm the *** for pointing it out every
Single
Dam
Time

No, you are actually my hero. I have neither the time nor the patience to post in every thread. Unfortunately, the will to complain is strong in the anti-projectile camp and I bet we'll see some burst mechanic added.

Everyone else - fitting dual AC20s takes a sacrifice (shoot that jager in the legs and see what happens). This issue is that he can reach out a long distance and lay down good damage. Shorten that range and two things happen: first, it becomes harder for him to aim as a mech moving closer to you is moving more degree/second than one at range and two, most of the short range weapons can now be heaped on the guy.

Specific to the OP - don't compare dual AC20 to 6xAC2. That's a ridiculous comparison. Ask why people don't use 4xAC5...... Oh wait, they do. And random hit locations? Why don't we just let the game decide by a random role. This is a simulator - aim needs to count.

Edited by Lokesh, 31 December 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Sandpit]

Lokesh, on 31 December 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

No, you are actually my hero. I have neither the time nor the patience to post in every thread. Unfortunately, the will to complain is strong in the anti-projectile camp and I bet we'll see some burst mechanic added.

Everyone else - fitting dual AC20s takes a sacrifice (shoot that jager in the legs and see what happens). This issue is that he can reach out a long distance and lay down good damage. Shorten that range and two things happen: first, it becomes harder for him to aim as a mech moving closer to you is moving more degree/second than one at range and two, most of the short range weapons can now be heaped on the guy.

Specific to the OP - don't compare dual AC20 to 6xAC2. That's a ridiculous comparison. Ask why people don't use 4xAC5...... Oh wait, they do. And random hit locations? Why don't we just let the game decide by a random role. This is a simulator - aim needs to count.

Which is why I always wind up posting


Pgi please don't make these changes. Weapon balance is in a good spot right now

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Which is why I always wind up posting


Pgi please don't make these changes. Weapon balance is in a good spot right now

Flamer, NARC, pulse lasers LB10 not so great compared to its AC10 counterpart.

I think PGI should make regular balance changes, just to see how it affects the game. Bring MLs back down to 3 heat? LB10x down to 2.2 or 2.0 cooldown. SRM flight speed increase. NARC health removed.

Balance is bearable, but its far from balanced. Hence why some weapons are clearly superior.

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 December 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 31 December 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

My opinion

After debate 4847367383 on weapons balance I don't entertain debates on it either. I just make sure if pgi reads a thread they know my opinion on it as well as everyone else's

Not dismissing the quoted ideas and opinions at all just explaining why I'm not debating your points with you . I'm all debated out on this particular subject.