550 replies to this topic

[Roburn Bliss]

Some sweet co-op game play:



lol @ 29:35 onward. I love how thing can escalate so fast in ED

One of the most important things to learn is what you can deal with and what you need to run away from !

[DAYLEET]

Kyone Akashi, on 13 December 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

Calling it a "glorified lobby system" sounds ... overly harsh.
And that's why one could like both games for different reasons - or just like one and ignore the other, instead of seeing it as some sort of competition or "threat" to their preferred candidate.

That's now how you play the game, get on with the program lol! =)

[Kyone Akashi]

Hexenhammer, on 14 December 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

just saw where Elite is online only.

Is that a problem for you? It doesn't require a lot of bandwidth - in theory, you could even play it using your phone as a hotspot (it was tested travelling on train)

Although I would recommend to only use Singleplayer then, as any encounter with other players would obviously feature much more back-and-forth than the single galaxy state updates that are transmitted with each transaction, mission activation, cargo scooping and other actions you make.

Roburn Bliss, on 14 December 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Some sweet co-op game play:

Nice vid! Those two messing around is fun to listen to.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 14 December 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 13 December 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

I think what you see is what you're going to get. The challenges of having a user controlled planetary landing just aren't worth the efforts, to be honest. It may be cool to spend 15 minutes plotting a landing intercept and flying it down through the atmosphere, but the 100th time you do it you're just going to want to hit Escape to get out of it.

The community doesn't know what they are asking for, so hopefully CR and crew are smart enough not to waste their time developing it.

Try playing Evochron Mercenary. It has planetary landings, etc. in it and they are pretty fun. Go to fast in the atmosphere and you burn up. It's a lot of fun. Granted you don't do it all the time but when there is a contract dealing with a city on a planet or resources to be mined on one, well, then you head down and see what you can get. It even has 'mech like walkers you can deploy and pilot on the surface which is really cool.

The game also has newtonian physics which add another layer of skill to the game--not that Elite doesn't have any, it does, but it is neat to see and the ships pilot similar to Independence War 2.

[Mister Blastman]

RalphVargr, on 11 December 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Next PSA:

The Total Newtonians would like an utterly realistic flight model. When not in super-cruise, the max x-axis velocity is auto limited to under 500 meters/sec. The Total Hardcore Newtonian's Are Not Happy. Game's flight model is Not Total Newtonian, but needed for two reasons:

a) The servers can't handle it. Read reasons over on the Frontier board.
A closure rate (head on) of 1,000 m/sec (2237 knots, 2,573 mph) is close to the limit of what (super-twitch) humans can react to.

If the game followed a strictly Newtonian model, it would be a computer vs computer dogfight, because the differential velocities and vectors would be too much to handle, for most humans that pay to play games. That would force a pay-for-bigger-computer grind issue, plus less fun for the mass customers who want dogfights in SPAAAACE.

If the Total Newtonian's had it their way, it would be a pretty deterministic game. Big engines, big guns, big computers win. See High Guard from Traveller.

Uh, you can't dogfight at 2200 knots. You'd die from g-lock. Most jets reach peak turn rate at about 400 - 500 knots and even at those speeds you're pulling 9 G's, the upward sustainable limit for genetically perfect super studs and even they can't hold that kind of turn for long before facing greyout or blackout.

And in space... you pull Gs just like you do on Earth.

The solution of course is decoupling of your vector from your ship axes to allow rotation and turreting of your entire ship and then introducing forward thrust once again once you find the new angle you want to fly at. But that has limitations.

There are other solutions but in the context of what is modeled in these games (and unless you have a deep understanding of physics), they aren't worth mentioning here.

[Heffay]

The reason that space dogfighting is the way it is in ...well, every game out there is because if it was done on a realistic "sim" level, you'd never see your opponent and you'd pass each other at 17,000kph.

Gameplay is important, so allowances have to be made.

[RalphVargr]

Mister Blastman, on 15 December 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Uh, you can't dogfight at 2200 knots. You'd die from g-lock. Most jets reach peak turn rate at about 400 - 500 knots and even at those speeds you're pulling 9 G's, the upward sustainable limit for genetically perfect super studs and even they can't hold that kind of turn for long before facing greyout or blackout.

And in space... you pull Gs just like you do on Earth.

The solution of course is decoupling of your vector from your ship axes to allow rotation and turreting of your entire ship and then introducing forward thrust once again once you find the new angle you want to fly at. But that has limitations.

There are other solutions but in the context of what is modeled in these games (and unless you have a deep understanding of physics), they aren't worth mentioning here.

I think you did not notice that I was referring to a closure rate, not the individual airspeeds of the individual combatants. Most DACM knife fights indeed occur at less than 0.8 Mach KIAS. and, if you had read some of my earlier posts more thoroughly, you would have noted that I indeed noted GLOC as a problem, in most sims.

But a game that gets too close to a sim does not last long as a game.

Decoupling the x/y/z moment arms of the ship from the resultant velocity vector gives us the "turret in space" gameplay concept/problem, and if you really wanted to be realistic, the distance of the pilot from the CG should induce nasty motion sickness, GLOC's, and other unpleasant symptoms (depending on the legnth of the moment arm), further reducing gameplay longevity. Perfect dogfight ship would be a spherical drone, for obvious reasons, in deep space, if mass is distributed evenly (HAHAHA!).

Edited by RalphVargr, 15 December 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[Alreech]

Hexenhammer, on 14 December 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

just saw where Elite is online only.

Yeah, just must weight the pro and cons:

pro:
A remake of Elite - after 30 years
with good graphics
with enjoyable Dogfights
with more ships and customization than the classic Elite
with planned expansions like planetary landings and personal combat

con:
you need a constant connection to the net...

But if you want an Elite remake without "Online Only" try out Oolite or the FF3D Mod for Frontier First Encounters.
The best substitute for Elite Dangerous is Oolit, a freeware remake of the old Elite.

Get it from this website, it's one of the best bulids.
http://www.elitefore...o.uk/games.html

On the same side is also a download of Frontier First Encounters 3D3.
It's a complete Package of the original Frontier First Encounters (Elite 3) with a new engine, new models and new textures.
FF 3D3 is shareware (free to use for 30 day, and now DRM to enforce it), and there is a Thread about this mod in the official Frontier Forums with newer builds and patchs.
I strongly recommend to use a joystick and a keybinding tool (Joy2Key, X-Padder, Saitek Profiler, ect) because the game is so old that it only supports one button.
It's nice, and you will learn why Elite Dangerous dosen't have real newtonic flight

More about Oolite:
Website:
http://www.oolite.org/

Elite Wiki
http://wiki.alioth.n...olite_Main_Page

Edited by Alreech, 15 December 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

RalphVargr, on 15 December 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

But a game that gets too close to a sim does not last long as a game.

Yeah I overlooked closure rate.

Falcon 4.0 is still going strong since 1998. And it is the most hardcore sim in existence. It also is the best for gameplay, too.

And you're right, decoupled flight would lead to motion sickness/etc. Hence the speeds would need to be slower or all weapons turreted for passing--or better yet, fighter don't engage each other except through standoff missiles. That is, using current technology/understanding of applicable physics.

Alreech, on 15 December 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

But if you want an Elite remake without "Online Only" try out Oolite or the FF3D Mod for Frontier First Encounters.
The best substitute for Elite Dangerous is Oolit, a freeware remake of the old Elite.

Get it from this website, it's one of the best bulids.
http://www.elitefore...o.uk/games.html

Don't forget to mention Pioneer...

http://pioneerspacesim.net

[Kyone Akashi]

Heffay, on 15 December 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

The reason that space dogfighting is the way it is in ...well, every game out there is because if it was done on a realistic "sim" level, you'd never see your opponent and you'd pass each other at 17,000kph.

See Elite II.

Although there was actually a trick for that, as neatly demonstrated by (nowadays famous) Isinona here.
Switch off your main engines and go turreting. At least this way you're not moving past the enemy at Ludicrous Speed™ anymore, because they try to maintain proximity, and you are not boosting off into some other direction.

Alreech, on 15 December 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

with good graphics

Don't forget the amazing sound design!

[Roburn Bliss]

Nebula in ED:



It will take some dedication to visit them.

[RalphVargr]

It's live.

Downloading the new game client now.

Wonder where my Freagle is?

Play will have to wait until after work. Rats.

NB: Won't be posting here as much, so apologies if I do not reply very quickly about the MWO forums.

[Dagon Zur]

Frontier and FFE.....I had to use the autopilot (on enemy) for targeting fast enemies. Newtonian physics make "dogfighting" impossible without a robust autopilot system.

There is an old (1989.) space combat sim named "Warhead" (I played it on my good old Amiga), which is using 100% newtonian physics. The game has some 8-10 autopilot modes each with its own purpose (like docking, travel, dogfight, pursue...etc...I dont remember exactly, so many years have passed).
The system worked quite well. I dont recall other space-sims with such robust autopilot system, realistic but 100% playable. I-War is closest.

Btw, both Warhead and I-War were made by the same guy, Glynn Williams.

http://www.home-of-t...984#userReviews

It requires an Atari ST , Amiga or an emulator to be played. ( I'm happy my Amiga still works......)

[RalphVargr]

A working Amiga?!? Wow.

Played all night. Tired. Very, very happy. Got my Freagle. Killed two pirates. Alert: There are interdiction's all over the place at spawn points, and the most lucrative spots close to them (within two to three jumps). Many signal sources are ships warily circling each other, waiting for the first mistake.

Try flying above, or below, the plane of the local ecliptic. Many pirates, etc, tend to hang out on the direct routes in-system.

[o0cipher0o]

Ok... I love the game. I'm already sitting in a viper (bounty hunting for life ), sold both the freeagle and the sidewinder. Luckily, in the system in which i spawned, LHS 3447, there are a lot of pirates with 6k+ bounties.

Next goal, fit the viper with as much A and B grade modules/weapons, then buy a cobra and fit it for exploration.

[Dagon Zur]

RalphVargr, on 17 December 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

A working Amiga?!? Wow.

..actually, both my A500 and A1200 are in 100% condition after 20+ years of use. Even more weird, my ancient Commodore 64, aged 29 years, works as a charm.

I guess that, once upon a time, computers were made with better components and a longer lifespan in mind.

[RalphVargr]

PSA: Flying too close to suns can melt you, and jumping into distant systems without a fuel scoop can strand you.

I had enough insurance to re-buy my Freagle. It burns gas, fast. But because it's so fast, I can evade a lot of interdiction's, and it is a dreamy dogfighter. So, I kept it.

Always top up at the gas station in an Eagle. Every system. Every Jump.

Edited by RalphVargr, 18 December 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[Heffay]

RalphVargr, on 18 December 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

PSA: Flying too close to suns can melt you, and jumping into distant systems without a fuel scoop can strand you.

I had enough insurance to re-buy my Freagle. It burns gas, fast. But because it's so fast, I can evade a lot of interdiction's, and it is a dreamy dogfighter. So, I kept it.

Always top up at the gas station in an Eagle. Every system. Every Jump.

How do you buy insurance? I've only had my freagle and starter sidewinder, and never seen an option. I've upgraded a couple of components on both of them, but not sure if I'll have to rebuy stuff if things go sideways.

[Hex Pallett]

(sitting here with my laptop loaded with E:D and not playing because finals and meeting with professors and recommendation letters and such UGH THE WAIT IS UNBEARABLE ;_; )

Edited by Helmstif, 18 December 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[RalphVargr]

Insurance is automatic. No button to push, or option to select beforehand. There is simply a post-mortem screen asking if you want to rebuy, or go back to a Sidewinder.

Keep 25% of the value of your ship in your cash balance. And, rebuying your extras costs more. Cash is King.

The Eagle cost me about 10,000 credits to rebuy, with all my upgrades. The Sidewinder is free, sans upgrades. Many choose to stick with the Sidewinder for exactly that reason. When you get blown/burnt up, your, cargo/data/and bounties go with it. I had 17 pieces of astro data to sell and bounties on pirates to collect. All gone, now. Rats!