48 replies to this topic

[SaJeel]

Now there have been allot of threads on the topic of Ac's vs the other weapons but I feel as thou most of them see the problem but are misdiagnosing the cause. Auto cannons are some of the most powerful weapons in the game (esp the 5 and 20) and they are also one of the easiest weapons to use. Players are very accustom to the point click fire a bullet mechanic, this makes AC's very easy to just pick up and excel with. Now also consider that ACs have the highest damage output and you have a balance problem. For a well balanced "good" system weapon power should be directly proportional to difficulty of use, in MWO the reverse is true, and this needs to be addressed to make the game a more fun engaging experience.

[Varent]

This thread is new and exciting.

[Joseph Mallan]

SaJeel, on 09 January 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Now there have been allot of threads on the topic of Ac's vs the other weapons but I feel as thou most of them see the problem but are misdiagnosing the cause. Auto cannons are some of the most powerful weapons in the game (esp the 5 and 20) and they are also one of the easiest weapons to use. Players are very accustom to the point click fire a bullet mechanic, this makes AC's very easy to just pick up and excel with. Now also consider that ACs have the highest damage output and you have a balance problem. For a well balanced "good" system weapon power should be directly proportional to difficulty of use, in MWO the reverse is true, and this needs to be addressed to make the game a more fun engaging experience.

So how do you make basically a rifle difficult to use? I mean it only took a week on a rifle range to learn how to fire an M-16 with Iron sights and get my marksman badge. A ballistic weapon is just point and shoot. you cannot make it harder than that unless you want to add something like using a mirror over your shoulder to shoot a cigar out of the Atlas's mouth!

[Spheroid]

AC-20 is high skill. Do you even use them? My Victor is certainly feeling the slower projectile velocity.

Not all builds are AC-40 Jagers.

[OneEyed Jack]

These boards make me feel like Joe in Idiocracy. Can people really not see how this game is plunging into stupidity when people are actually complaining that AC5s are powerful? They haven't been significantly improved, people. If AC5s are considered some of the best weapons, it's only because everything else has already been nerfed into the dirt.

But please, keep bitching and moaning and whining for more nerfs..... or maybe just go play Hello Kitty: Island Adventure.

[AaronWolf]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

These boards make me feel like Joe in Idiocracy. Can people really not see how this game is plunging into stupidity when people are actually complaining that AC5s are powerful? They haven't been significantly improved, people. If AC5s are considered some of the best weapons, it's only because everything else has already been nerfed into the dirt.

But please, keep bitching and moaning and whining for more nerfs..... or maybe just go play Hello Kitty: Island Adventure.

"It has electrolytes!"

[Mechteric]

Its a tradeoff, lasers have duration but they are point and click, no need to lead your target. AC's on the other hand, you have to lead your target based on distance and speed.

So yeah, there's no real point to be made about what is easier, its different.

[DONTOR]

I would say weapon power is more related to weight in this game and that is fairly true. Also there is more to Ballistics than point and shoot, there is ammo conservation, bullet drop, and sometimes a serious lead is needed to land a shot. Unlike lasers that are actually point and shoot, never worrying about ammo and usually no lead is necessary.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

These boards make me feel like Joe in Idiocracy. Can people really not see how this game is plunging into stupidity when people are actually complaining that AC5s are powerful? They haven't been significantly improved, people. If AC5s are considered some of the best weapons, it's only because everything else has already been nerfed into the dirt.

But please, keep bitching and moaning and whining for more nerfs..... or maybe just go play Hello Kitty: Island Adventure.

[Bagheera]

Armor is too easy to use. All people do is put it on their mech and walk away. Nerf Armor.

[AlaskanShrake]

I was streaming on twitch, and decided to pull a Dragon. The enemy team had *SIX* AC/40 Jagermechs. I was pretty much speechless after I saw the after-match scoreboard.

I dunno if this is relevant, but yeah. AC/240. Niiiice, matchmaker.

[Joseph Mallan]

Syldria, on 10 January 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

I was streaming on twitch, and decided to pull a Dragon. The enemy team had *SIX* AC/40 Jagermechs. I was pretty much speechless after I saw the after-match scoreboard.

I dunno if this is relevant, but yeah. AC/240. Niiiice, matchmaker.

IF they were a FedCom drop, that is a good set up. True Davion's prefer AC 5s and 10s but the Lyran influence is on the rise in this time period. Would you complain of a unit that dropped in all Marauders? Even IF there are several Companies that are comprised of just that Mech.

There is one Merc Command that is dead now, but they were a Battalion of almost all Marauder IIs! This is not a bad thing, it is more like confirming how a Military WOULD deploy Mechs.

[Ezazel]

Where's my dislike button? It's people like OP why we get wonky mechanics like ghost heat and gauss charge. And this is like umpteenth ballistic nerf thread. Instead of nerfing all weapons to dirt they could buff certain other weapons a bit.

[AlmightyAeng]

Close games in MWO are fun...but it's true that the best victories in war are those you win quickly and with an overwhelming advantage. While it makes for exciting gameplay...no commander wants to slowly bleed their forces away in a war of attrition.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost Badger, on 10 January 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Close games in MWO are fun...but it's true that the best victories in war are those you win quickly and with an overwhelming advantage. While it makes for exciting gameplay...no commander wants to slowly bleed their forces away in a war of attrition.

I don't wanna do that here either. I want my wins to be quick, decisive & with a few casualties on my team as possible.

[3rdworld]

I wouldn't say autocannons are too easy to use. Lasers do not offset their difficulty over autocannons in a meaningful way.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Here is a fun one. If matches actually weren't just small, contrived, poorly thought out modes...maybe ammo would actually matter.

The real balancing mechanisms between Auto Cannons and Lasers are heat and ammo. One puts out more heat, but requires no ammo. Whereas the other one puts comparatively little heat but has to carry ammo.

Half the problem is our matches are so short that ammo isn't a major issue aside from some joke builds.

If matches were long enough that you really had to think about ammo, maybe AC's wouldn't be so prominently featured as main guns at all times.

[Prezimonto]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

These boards make me feel like Joe in Idiocracy. Can people really not see how this game is plunging into stupidity when people are actually complaining that AC5s are powerful? They haven't been significantly improved, people. If AC5s are considered some of the best weapons, it's only because everything else has already been nerfed into the dirt.

But please, keep bitching and moaning and whining for more nerfs..... or maybe just go play Hello Kitty: Island Adventure.

AC's are not greatly over powered singly, but it's the fact that you can pack 2 or 3 on a mech, often in a single hard point that makes them feel highly effective. This is due to the high rate of fire, long range, direct fire, no-lock needed, and point damage. They're just useful in more situations than all the other weapons. And that's okay for the tonnage and risk.

I still think all they need to do to balance AC's against other weapons is actually give the ammo a good chance to explode when it'*****... like 50%(instead of the current 10% or less). You can pretty easily protect 2 to 4 tons through judicious placement on your mech. But multiple AC's need a lot more tons of ammo, and those builds should be more dangerous to carry than they currently are in game.

If anything certain AC's (the 10 and 5) are probably a little under powered for their tonnage and slots compared to the other ACs. However, they're still fine choices when matched against the effectiveness of other weapons.

[Fabe]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 January 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Here is a fun one. If matches actually weren't just small, contrived, poorly thought out modes...maybe ammo would actually matter.

The real balancing mechanisms between Auto Cannons and Lasers are heat and ammo. One puts out more heat, but requires no ammo. Whereas the other one puts comparatively little heat but has to carry ammo.

Half the problem is our matches are so short that ammo isn't a major issue aside from some joke builds.

If matches were long enough that you really had to think about ammo, maybe AC's wouldn't be so prominently featured as main guns at all times.

Yeah but then all players would switch over to energy builds and maybe even demand that heat get reduced so they can fire them at the same speed as A/C.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Fabe, on 10 January 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Yeah but then all players would switch over to energy builds and maybe even demand that heat get reduced so they can fire them at the same speed as A/C.

I'm going to ignore the second part, because that would be dumb.

But to the first part.

You can't switch to all energy builds anymore, due to ghost heat.

Well let me rephrase, it's not as simple as it used to be.

What might happen is we might start seeing more varied loadouts.

If PGI would just freaking fix SRM's you might see more mechs with an AC5, a PPC and 2 or 3 SRM6's bracketed by some MLasers.

You can do a 15 point long range hit to soften up the mech, then get in close with the SRM's and MLas to finish them off.

And if you run out of ammo, you are still in play with the PPC and Medium Lasers.

This game is so fubar though, that probably won't happen.