424 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Previously, there were a few cases where the AC10 could potentially be used instead of the AC5's, but now it's pretty much a no-brainer to take 5's instead of 10's.

Honestly, no one who knew anything about the game thought the AC10 was OP.

[Mister Blastman]

FupDup, on 07 January 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

I don't think that can be it, because PGI doesn't usually balance the game around experienced players. They prefer to use the Silent Majority™.

Ah yeah. You're right. Sorry. I'm slipping. I actually assumed something logical. I'll try not to do that next time.

[Trauglodyte]

The AC20 needed to be hammered. Now, it keeps people from using it as a sniper weapon. Yes, it can do more damage than the AC10 at the AC10's max effective range (why wasn't that freaking nerfed?) but good luck being accurate with it beyond 500ish meters.

I guess that they nuked the AC10 speed to keep people from using it like people were using the AC20. The AC2 and AC5 are, after all, designed to be THE long ranged ACs. The Gauss, though, poses a perplexing problem. It weighs 2.5x that of the AC2 and has only 8% less range but does 7.5x the damage of the AC2. So, if the GR is supposed to be the premiere sniping weapon, than what does that make the AC2?

[MadcatX]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 January 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

No, AC/20 heat was lowered and both weapons projectile speed have been increased before, past Closed Beta.


People talk mostly generally about ballistic as imbalanced, though. That might explain the AC/10, even if it wasn't deemed the most effective option for ballistics by anyone. Weird that they overlook the AC/5, though.

I suppose they can only ever change 2 lines per xml-file per update, or something.

AC/5's.... there's an issue with AC/5's? Well, I've seen 2xPPC 2xAC5 builds I suppose.

Ahh well, speculation is all well and good, lets see how it turn out in game.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 07 January 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

The AC20 needed to be hammered. Now, it keeps people from using it as a sniper weapon. Yes, it can do more damage than the AC10 at the AC10's max effective range (why wasn't that freaking nerfed?) but good luck being accurate with it beyond 500ish meters.

I guess that they nuked the AC10 speed to keep people from using it like people were using the AC20. The AC2 and AC5 are, after all, designed to be THE long ranged ACs. The Gauss, though, poses a perplexing problem. It weighs 2.5x that of the AC2 and has only 8% less range but does 7.5x the damage of the AC2. So, if the GR is supposed to be the premiere sniping weapon, than what does that make the AC2?

The problem with the AC/2 in MWO is that it is not actually a very good long ranged weapon due to such low damage and a high RoF. Due to the way the game is designed, it is best to use high frontloaded damage at long range, and take cover immediately after firing. The AC/2 in MWO is basically a medium-short range troll cannon.

[Mister Blastman]

Net result of changes (condensed):

People switch from using 2x PPC + AC 20 back to... *drumroll* ... 2x PPC + 2x AC 5 (or UAC 5).

Metagame... ENGAGE!

Edited by Mister Blastman, 07 January 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 07 January 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Net result of changes (condensed):

People switch from using 2x PPC + AC 20 back to... *drumroll* ... 2x PPC + 2x AC 5 (or UAC 5).

Metagame... ENGAGE!

Touche'

[MadcatX]

Mister Blastman, on 07 January 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Net result of changes (condensed):

People switch from using 2x PPC + AC 20 back to... *drumroll* ... 2x PPC + 2x AC 5 (or UAC 5).

Metagame... ENGAGE!

10 points off of a pinpoint alpha, I can live with that.

[Goose]

FupDup, on 07 January 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

IIRC, wasn't the AC/10 a really horrible weapon in CBT because it was heavier than a PPC, with shorter range and ammo requirements? (The AC/20 was useful in some capacities though).

Depends on what heat sinks you have access to …

[FupDup]

MadcatX, on 07 January 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

10 points off of a pinpoint alpha, I can live with that.

10 points off, but the projectile speeds are much closer together (1500 m/s for PPC, 1300 m/s for AC/5) so it will be a lot more accurate against moving targets.

[Mawai]

I am guessing the issue is 2PPC + AC20, 2 x AC20, and 2PPC + AC10 for 40 and 30 pinpoint alpha respectively. By slowing the AC20 and AC10 rounds it further decouples the damage from the PPC increasing the chance that the rounds will strike different hit boxes and spread damage ... it also makes it harder for the AC20 to hit moving targets at range ... the AC20 damage decay is so slow that it still does 10 damage at 540m. With the decreased speed it will be harder for the AC20 (and AC10) to hit moving targets at long range.

I am guessing that the damage reduction for weapon fire beyond optimal range is not coded on a per weapon basis so it wasn't easy to simply reduce the max range for an AC20 to 2x optimal instead of 3x for other ballistics. Instead it was easier to reduce the specific projectile speed.

[Mister Blastman]

MadcatX, on 07 January 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

10 points off of a pinpoint alpha, I can live with that.

You won't if you run a light mech. 2x PPC + 2x AC 5 murders them... like a fat kid does to a bowl of cornflakes.


The AC 5s also have higher DPS. Trust me. The end result is the same as before and in some ways... worse.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 07 January 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[DONTOR]

FupDup, on 07 January 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

After a 2 month hiatus of balancing changes, what they choose to adjust is THIS of all things? No LPL buffs? SRMs? LBX? Flamers? Narc? Heck, maybe even AC/2? Dafuq.

theres nothing wrong with LBX 10, AC2, or flamers they are niche weapons and do there intended jobs well.

[Estonniel]

Pinpoint alpha down from 40 to 20 on moving targets. ok. nice, really nice
as for the AC 10 story. some builds did run AC10 in a poptart build, so to the same effect of AC 20's also no more instant Slap of 40 dmg in the face. or shoulders that just suprise blow up.

Next SRM fix anyone ?

[pbiggz]

A more robust fix is needed to truely make weapons interesting (cone of fire anyone?) but for now, this is not a bad fix. It desyncs ac10s and 20s from ER PPCs.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 07 January 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

I don't think that can be it, because PGI doesn't usually balance the game around experienced players. They prefer to use the Silent Majority™.

If they are Silent... How does PGI KNOW what they want?

[Mister Blastman]

pbiggz, on 07 January 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

A more robust fix is needed to truely make weapons interesting (cone of fire anyone?) but for now, this is not a bad fix. It desyncs ac10s and 20s from ER PPCs.

People use ER PPCs?

Joseph Mallan, on 07 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

If they are Silent... How does PGI KNOW what they want?

Polls! They said they send out private polls to select users who are silent. But if they're silent... how do they respond? ... o_O

[Trauglodyte]

FupDup, on 07 January 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

The problem with the AC/2 in MWO is that it is not actually a very good long ranged weapon due to such low damage and a high RoF. Due to the way the game is designed, it is best to use high frontloaded damage at long range, and take cover immediately after firing. The AC/2 in MWO is basically a medium-short range troll cannon.

I get that. And trust me, I hate the AC2 because people only use it, and LRM5s for that matter, in quantities to abuse the idiotic cockpit shake. Its a baddy flag like watching people use the Advanced Zoom Module on targets within 300m (love that one). I guess the point that I'm making is that the Gauss Rifle should supplant the AC2 as the premiere long ranged weapon given that it has almost the same range, has the same projectile speed, and has nearly the same range. I guess that the AC2 now is limited to troll builds, as you said, and on mechs that can't carry heavier ACs while the other ACs fill the intermediate ranges between the GR and the 20.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 January 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[FupDup]

DONTOR, on 07 January 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

theres nothing wrong with LBX 10, AC2, or flamers they are niche weapons and do there intended jobs well.

The LB 10-X does not do its job well. Critical hits are not very significiant most of the time, and the raw damage is spread out on the target unless it's fired at very very close range. The 1 ton and 1 slot gained compared to the AC/10 is simply not worth the loss of pinpoint damage potential and the massive "effective" range reduction (due to spread).




The AC/2 is kind of a "meh" troll cannon. It has its uses but can't quite stand up to "the meta" weapons.

The Flamer does not perform well in its niche at all. It only heats up the target to 90% heat, but the shooter can still reach 100% or higher with them. It also requires constant firing on the target, and takes several moments for the exponential heat up effect to "wind up" for it to actually do anything. All in all, it is a horrible weapon.

Edited by FupDup, 07 January 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Mawai]

Trauglodyte, on 07 January 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

The AC20 needed to be hammered. Now, it keeps people from using it as a sniper weapon. Yes, it can do more damage than the AC10 at the AC10's max effective range (why wasn't that freaking nerfed?) but good luck being accurate with it beyond 500ish meters.

I guess that they nuked the AC10 speed to keep people from using it like people were using the AC20. The AC2 and AC5 are, after all, designed to be THE long ranged ACs. The Gauss, though, poses a perplexing problem. It weighs 2.5x that of the AC2 and has only 8% less range but does 7.5x the damage of the AC2. So, if the GR is supposed to be the premiere sniping weapon, than what does that make the AC2?

AC2 actually has slightly higher DPS than a gauss rifle for much less tonnage and slightly greater range. If you can catch a target standing still for a few seconds the AC2 will out damage a gauss rifle. You can actually fit 2 x AC2 and 3 tons of ammo for the weight of one gauss rifle. This has more than twice the DPS of the single gauss rifle it replaces.

So ... AC2 is situational ... if you drive carefully and create opportunities where you fire across the battlefield with team mates closer to the opponents which gives you a chance to fire without return fire then you can easily be more effective than a mech using a gauss rifle. On the other hand, if playing a peek-a-boo sniper meta the gauss will be more effective.

Edited by Mawai, 07 January 2014 - 10:43 AM.