479 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Actually no. Even with the increased heat they would still be viable. Its shown by people who instead choose to fire ppc and wait then fire another. Add it all up and you dont overheat. Emply ghost heat and you do. It very very much changed those builds. It also changed 6LL builds as well.

Go look through the forums and slide back a few pages and you will find the rage there over those builds over and over again. That was what was changed. And my gaming experience has indeed improved because of this personally.

Changing JJ would do the same thing while keeping accuracy as a prime commodity.

If you chain fire your weapons, ghost heat doesn't apply... Did I read your statement wrong? If not, that was a pretty silly comment.

The heat increase happened right around the same time as ghost heat. My HM, for instance, had a Gauss and 2 ERPPC, and had that setup for months before it became so prevalent. I was very good at it (compared to my average skill with other mechs) and easily got tons of damage and kills consistently. Then came the heat change and ghost heat. Ghost heat had ZERO affect on the build, as I was under the max cap (2), but I could no longer alpha my weapons due to the heat change from 10 to 15. So, that is all the proof I need that ghost heat is unneeded, as a simple weapon heat adjustment did what ghost heat could not. The Gauss delay then added a headshot to the build, as it desync'd the Gauss from the rest of my weapons, even if I was still using them with all that (non-ghost) heat. Now, I just use an ERPPC and two AC5s to get the same relative numbers with it, but my playstyle also had to change as it is a much faster firing setup.

Ghost heat is worthless.

Edited by Cimarb, 15 January 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 15 January 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

If you chain fire your weapons, ghost heat doesn't apply... Did I read your statement wrong? If not, that was a pretty silly comment.

The heat increase happened right around the same time as ghost heat. My HM, for instance, had a Gauss and 2 ERPPC, and had that setup for months before it became so prevalent. I was very good at it (compared to my average skill with other mechs) and easily got tons of damage and kills consistently. Then came the heat change and ghost heat. Ghost heat had ZERO affect on the build, as I was under the max cap (2), but I could no longer alpha my weapons due to the heat change from 10 to 15. So, that is all the proof I need that ghost heat is unneeded, as a simple weapon heat adjustment did what ghost heat could not. The Gauss delay then added a headshot to the build, as it desync'd the Gauss from the rest of my weapons, even if I was still using them with all that (non-ghost) heat. Now, I just use an ERPPC and two AC5s to get the same relative numbers with it, but my playstyle also had to change as it is a much faster firing setup.

Ghost heat is worthless.

I admitedly was not reffering to er-ppc, just ppc.

Yes erppc heat makes them very hard to use, not impossible but very hard, that said I make no comments for that. However it does strongly effect ppc and large laser use in all its forms.

Although it did not effect your build, it did change alot of builds that were being used and were being complained about.

[Amsro]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

This isnt TT. Stop using TT examples. It doesnt matter if its not documented in the game anywhere. The game needed a mechanic to stop the boating. It got one. A heat overall wouldnt change that. This was the effective way to do it.

My game experience has increased and gotten alot more pleasant since ghost heat. I was quite tired of seeing the 4 ppc stalkers for one and the three ppc jump snipers. This also prevents many other mechs from being able to do 4 ppc builds. If this wasnt implimented you would actually see even more jump snipers across the board and massive laser boats that were flooding these same balance channels with complaints.

Way to quote me and forget in the very same post I say this isn't TT and avoid using it as an example.

Refer to my post you've been fooled into thinking Ghost Heat has done anything, instead SRM 2.0 and ER/PPC heat nerf has made all the difference. Your post just proves my point. As you have no argument as to why Ghost Heat helped just that since then its been better. (see SRM 2.0 + ER/PPC heat .. again.)

All the builds you've posted still exist and can be used effectively. I use triple PPC on my Thunderbolt and its great to use. I still see 4 PPC stalkers wreck face. Only the NEW players get punk'd by it. And come fooled by it. You don't need to alpha to be good at this game. Just sayin'.

Amsro, on 15 January 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

This isn't about TT. There is no sane argument for Ghost Heat, it hasn't changed anything.

Everyone was fooled into thinking it did something when SRM's were "buffed" to 2.0 the same day. Co-incidence!? I think not. Now ER/PPC are 10/15 heat. Boating them now is foolish regardless of Ghost Heat.

The only thing Ghost Heat has done is ruin a whole **** ton of new players experience when building mechs because "Ghost Heat" isn't documented in the game ANYWHERE.

Edit; I still have a 6 Large Laser mech that wrecks face, the point is the balance of the game got better at the sime time Ghost Heat was pasted in, it only ruins builds that don't need nerfing while skilled players still get the "OP" build to use.

The 6 PPC stalker was never a problem, nor is AC40, even the splat cat wasn't an issue. Those ears practically fall off.

Edited by Amsro, 15 January 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Drunk Canuck]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Hate to break it to ya murphy but its not TT. Alot of builds just dont translate well regardless but still can be used in different roles. Shoting games dont translate well from board games with random hit locations. This is what we have and its a different beast. Live it learn it love it.

True, in TT the JM6-DD with 2 AC2's and 2 AC5's is one of the worst builds in the game, yet it's hilariously lethal in this game. Sure, it's not competitive but you can shred the hell out of Mech's with relative ease from the right range.

[Khobai]

Quote

Edit; I still have a 6 Large Laser mech that wrecks face, the point is the balance of the game got better at the sime time Ghost Heat was pasted in, it only ruins builds that don't need nerfing while skilled players still get the "OP" build to use.

Correct. Not only did Ghost heat accomplish absolutely nothing to balance PPCs, but it also ruined countless builds which nobody ever complained about. And in doing so its forced people towards using autocannons and PPCs even more.

[Amsro]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Correct. Not only did Ghost heat accomplish absolutely nothing to balance PPCs, but it also ruined countless builds which nobody ever complained about. And in doing so its forced people towards using autocannons and PPCs even more.

Take that you evil 9 medium laser Hunchback!

[Solis Obscuri]

Lykaon, on 15 January 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

So if more concentration is required to aim less concentration can be spent elsewhere.Like say,spacial awareness of other enemy mechs locations,friendly mech locations and evading damage?

TBH, those are all really good things to know before you go in guns blazing.

But I can spare one whole second of my life to make sure my lasers connect when I need them to.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Correct. Not only did Ghost heat accomplish absolutely nothing to balance PPCs, but it also ruined countless builds which nobody ever complained about. And in doing so its forced people towards using autocannons and PPCs even more.

actually people did complain about those builds. alot.

[Gaan Cathal]

Varent, on 16 January 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

actually people did complain about those builds. alot.

Who?

[Varent]

Gaan Cathal, on 16 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Who?

Go look through the forums if you wanna see. scroll through it. I have better things to do with my life then to read and sort complaints. But they are there.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 16 January 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Go look through the forums if you wanna see. scroll through it. I have better things to do with my life then to read and sort complaints. But they are there.

Ah, the dreaded "They" have struck again! I think They are related to the NotMe Ghost that my kids keep referring to

[FupDup]

Varent, on 16 January 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Go look through the forums if you wanna see. scroll through it. I have better things to do with my life then to read and sort complaints. But they are there.

I don't have the time to search through the forums either, but I'm fairly certain that nobody in the history of ever complained about 5SRM2, 3 LPL, or 3 [ER]LL. And the people who complained about AC/2 were/are just Hodors who should not be listened to.

[DeathlyEyes]

Khobai, on 07 January 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

Lasers are perfect. Beam duration was the perfect solution to pinpoint damage. And that same solution needs to be applied to both Autocannons (burst fire) as well as PPCs (splash damage).

No, you don't want this. This would discredit this game as a competitive game. Having things randomized with splash damage and removing the advantage of being able to aim well versus not being able to aim well would ruin any competitive chance this game has. You would loose a large segment of the die hard gaming groups. They should bring more weapons closer together with pinpoint fire and reduce randomness.

[Noesis]

h4t3r4d3, on 16 January 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

No, you don't want this. This would discredit this game as a competitive game. Having things randomized with splash damage and removing the advantage of being able to aim well versus not being able to aim well would ruin any competitive chance this game has. You would loose a large segment of the die hard gaming groups. They should bring more weapons closer together with pinpoint fire and reduce randomness.

Burst fire would require more consistent aiming to be effective, so it would improve skill levels.

Splash does have its complications, is a more involved model for MWO and would lower skill however, but it could be a diffusion model instead where the PPC has to as usual strike one hit box but some proportion of the damage is subsequently transferred to neighboring hit box locations (avoiding front to back, to head transfers). Can be described as an arced transfer across the Mech but would not be an explosion model as per splash.

Neither however would be "random" as per the original interpretation since both burst and splash would still follow specific mechanics. Burst fire simply spreading out a short burst as per a single shot but still acting as a shot. Splash associating damage with an inverse square law damage spread from the explosion point to contacted surfaces. It is more like the example of the cone fire model with deliberate RNG weapon spread that would demonstrate randomness that then plays to a law of averages and weapon numbers than skill for sure.

Move lasers more in line as FLD by shortening beam time may help to bridge the gap but the idea of pinpoint application of FLD ballistics (including PPCs) at range would then still remain with other weapons then becoming more characteristically similar as a result. Potentially exacerbating the issue as represented. It would help to equalise / normalise things however.

Other aspects could also be considered to help with the range dominance by simply reducing ballistic ranges which would allow more opportunity to the short game without changing weapon characteristics.

A held view however for the application of burst and diffusion mechanics to ranged ballistics is to remove the FLD pinpoint application of damage at range. Which is perceived as far too strong for snipers to apply, which is only making game play orientate towards this role and these weapons as being dominant in the Meta as a result.

I have differing views as to whether a series of changes to weapon characteristics and other indirect elements would help to restore confidence with the short game play roles but something needs to be done to at least make things more normalised with other roles having equal confidence to use to some extent. This without removing snipers from the game or them having similar effectiveness to other existing roles as a result of balance changes, which is the desired scenario.

[KharnZor]

ego1607, on 07 January 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

Yeah, those totally destroy 2xAC20, 3xUAC5 amd similar configs...

They sure do. You should see what i can do with my Victor with its totaly OP ac20 ml srm setup.

[Appogee]

I don't think ACs should be turned into pseudo beam weapons in order to stop their pinpoint damage advantage.

However, I do believe that lasers should have their beam durations shortened a bit, to make them a little more competitive with ACs and PPCs.

[kapusta11]

Making ACs firing in bursts will change nothing other than killing weapon diversity, they produce no heat, they can be fired on cooldown, they are superior to energy weapons in rate of fire. Disipation in MWO is the same as in TT so all energy weapons effectively fire at TT rates (small and medium lasers not so much because they don't reach heat cap as fast as the big ones thus can be fired in 5+ alphas before overheating thus may be considered as heat neutral unless you brawl). The only 2 ways of fixing all this are:

- Increase heat disipation, lower the cap, remove ghost heat, in other words make energy weapons heat neutral like AC's. Still, some damage buffs may be required for lasers because of how they work, overall armor increase may be required because of another weapon becoming as deadly as ballistics are now.

- Bring all weapon, mainly ballistics, recycle times back to TT values. Again, tweaking to lasers might be needed.

And even then long range meta will be dominant because there are neither viable close range weapons (SRMs, Pulse lasers) nor the reward for getting up close (said weapons dealing more damage than those that have longer range). In most cases you'll be almost dead before you reach the enemy.

And there is another double-edged sword in a form of focus fire. Having VoIP (even without it, piloting some chassis will draw attention even in PUGs) gives enormous advantage, you can easily kill enemy mech in a couple of seconds. Of course this can be fixed by increasing armor values but it will also make the game more forgiving to mistakes i.e. favor dumb play.

Edited by kapusta11, 17 January 2014 - 03:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zensei, on 16 January 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

over and over and over again, hey everyone, look at the repetitiveness of the multiposter, 5007 posts of drivel. cant wait for the next 5000

The first 10K are the hardest.

[wanderer]

h4t3r4d3, on 16 January 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

No, you don't want this. This would discredit this game as a competitive game. Having things randomized with splash damage and removing the advantage of being able to aim well versus not being able to aim well would ruin any competitive chance this game has. You would loose a large segment of the die hard gaming groups. They should bring more weapons closer together with pinpoint fire and reduce randomness.

I see. So, basically you don't get that every major problem with MWO so far in the weapons department has been about pinpoint fire? Lasers used to have shorter beam duration.

The 8-ML Hunchback ruled the roost. Later, before speed tweaks? We had the Awesome premiere. Three guesses what people strapped in all those energy HPs. Yep, medium-lasertron. The AC at that point was mocked, save for the occasional AC/20 Catapult rumbling around. Then, oddly...it got tougher to gang-fire all those lasers at one spot.

Cue the switch to autocannons.

LRMs? OP when they get enough focused damage, not so when the fire angles and tracking spread them around. Take it from an LRM guru who's been lobbing the things from CB.

Until and when they go with more splashy/bursty damage, the point-click-deliver weapons will be the dominant meta. -Forever-.

Aim should matter, but the balance to that is being able to defensively spread that damage. The only weapons in the game right now that allow you to deliver full pinpoint damage right now without the opponent being able to defend are the PPC and the AC. That's where the fix needs to be in. Weapon fire on someone who isn't dodging and twisting should be able to gut them fast, but the guy with the dual AC's shouldn't be able to vaporize hit locations twice or three times faster than the one who's pumping laser or missile fire into them. And that's what happens right now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Its nt about pin point its about convergence.

If I ire A weapon it should go about where I point my mouse. But having 6 weapons fire ff and do the same breaks the feel of immersion. There must be a way to have one weapon hit spot on, while making it harder to repeat with more than one.

Lasers should be the best converging weapons (Laser accurate is by definition that good)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 05:58 AM.