129 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Most of the top players I know are like this too. They HATE the meta. They loathe it. They only run it to get results. They would much prefer to run "fun" builds, all day long.

The few drops I have done lately are in a Hunchback 4SP. That isn't exactly a meta mech. In fact, it is a good way to get yourself killed. I do it because I like having fun but make no mistake, when it gets down to it, I'd prefer to be winning, 100% of the time.



lol

I'm sure you've been there, done that for real.

Really though, that's what we're doing these days, anyways. Everyone is hiding behind hills, afraid to push because the sniper line will rip them apart.

So playing a war game that is fairly simulating how war is fought is not as fun as folks thought it would be... Imagine that!

Every try to have a PUG only Alt? you will start out with a more Average Elo and will build up to where you are meant to be.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 January 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

increase JJ heat to TT levels. Makes it useful for mobility but the heat causes weapon fire to be harsh. deuces

To do this, and it isn't a bad idea, means PGI would have to fix the broken way they handle heat, currently.

i.e. lower the heat-cap, institute penalties and increase the dissipation rate.

[DONTOR]

3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

That is a lie. But keep trying.

No actually he is completly right PPC were trash and poptarting didnt happen. (in closed beta)

Edited by DONTOR, 09 January 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

So playing a war game that is fairly simulating how war is fought is not as fun as folks thought it would be... Imagine that!

War isn't fun, period.

Though, the thought of flying a fast jet going Mach 1.2 - 1.6 into the enemy battlefield and dropping cluster bombs onto columns of armor while dodging surface-to-air missiles and taking out enemy interceptors sure is sexy to think about. In reality is is both stressful and harrowing.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

If lowly old me can place that good in so little time in a PoS why cant the elite fight in anything and excell?

I believe they can... I just sense there is some extreme peer pressure (be it real or self-induced) to be productive. And at the levels 12-mans play at, that "little bit" they give up compounds into a huge inequity...

Like I said... vicious circle. Do they buck the meta and work harder to reap the same results or do they placate and have equal footing as their competitors.

As we place a premium on "fun"... we've already accepted that ultimatum.

Edited by DaZur, 09 January 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

3rdworld, on 09 January 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

In a comp match 12/12 have JJs.

In 12 mans, for sure.

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

if nothing else the whole jump sniping thing needs to be made harder. As blastman said, its too easy to jump snipe.

I've gotten to the point where there are times I can hit people while still going up. The whole shake thing works for a while but eventually, zen sets in.

[DaZur]

I argue poptarting as a tactic has as much right to the battlefield as any other tactic...

That said, it needs to be a "high-risk / high reward" tactic that requires an applicable level of skill.

i.e... Why I like the inclusion of Newtons Law as a soft nerf.

Edited by DaZur, 09 January 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

DaZur, on 09 January 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

I argue poptarting as a tactic has as much right to the battlefield as any other tactic...

That said, it needs to be a "high-risk / high reward" tactic that requires an applicable level of skill.

i.e... Why I like the inclusion of Newtons Law as a soft nerf.

Exactly. Right now there is very little risk and huge reward to doing it. From a game-mechanics, or balancing perspective, that is a problem.

I think the pop-tarting is just a symptom of the problem rather than the real problem. I think it is a symptom of convergence being advantageous. If you remove convergence, pop-tarting all of a sudden becomes far less rewarding. Closing the distance becomes the new way to play and up close... pop-tarts have far less DPS and struggle to compete.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 09 January 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Voivode]

As much as I don't like posts arguing for nerfing something I have to agree.

Since the whole 45 degree climb limit was put in jump jet mechs have had a serious maneuver advantage. Given the sheer number of 45 or greater angles found on the game maps that's a serious advantage. They should have that advantage, that is the point of jump jets after all, but including a pop snipe side effect with the movement buff and for relatively small tonnage and crit slot investment a JJ capable mech gets a serious advantage over a non JJ capable mech.

Just allowing JJ to be used for superior maneuver is enough of an advantage for mechs that can carry them. They sacrifice little in the way of tonnage and space to gain that. The chief complaints about the screen shake were the unpleasant an nauseating effect it had. Just make the weapons go random angles until the mechs feet touch the ground.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Exactly. Right now there is very little risk and huge reward to doing it. From a game-mechanics, or balancing perspective, that is a problem.

I think the pop-tarting is just a symptom of the problem rather than the real problem. I think it is a symptom of convergence being advantageous. If you remove convergence, pop-tarting all of a sudden becomes far less rewarding. Closing the distance becomes the new way to play and up close... pop-tarts have far less DPS and struggle to compete.

It wouldnt change things as much as you think since many premier builds can fit 2 large weapons into the same torso section. If you want true change you need to hit it from the source wich is how the jump jets and weapons interact. Effect the way you can aim while using jump jets and you have a whole new ball game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

War isn't fun, period.

Though, the thought of flying a fast jet going Mach 1.2 - 1.6 into the enemy battlefield and dropping cluster bombs onto columns of armor while dodging surface-to-air missiles and taking out enemy interceptors sure is sexy to think about. In reality is is both stressful and harrowing.

Dude at lease as a Grunt, If I make a small enough mistake someone could CMA.

*Salute*

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

I need to get into some 12 man drops so I can ruin your stats! If you don't like seeing so many pop tarts why do you bring em???

[kesuga7]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

typical pug at high elo
4+ jump snipers
8+ with jump jets in general

typical 12 man at high elo
7-8+ jump snipers
Pretty much everyone has Jump jets. (you might see a kintaro running inteference or a Cent. Usually gonna be a S-Hawk these days though )

Man thats not the way to play Mechwarrior - 12 man's , some pugs
i just don't get how people think Having 8-12 Assault/Heavy Mechs with Jumpjets just jumpsnipingwith the same team layout and gameplaystyle is a GOOD Mechwarrior experience

So even if you get within the 80 meters range of a Twin PPC and Ballistic Highlander there is still the Ballistic damaged paired with jumpjets that i have seen able to get you out of the 80 meter range and shoot you mid air while torso twisting
(Its not that hard :L)


On Topic:
Add a SLIGHT jumpjetshake while falling or make the Crosshair still move while mid air but not as much while using the jumpjets
Paired with a introduction of Recoil for ballistics , shooting Your Twin AC 5's midair would offset your aim and only allow either a semi-accurate PPC shot or a semi-accurate
(but this still allows for a inaccurate body shot by the seccond followup weapon shot midair either PPC or ballistic)

This Paired with fall damage (Not too much and scaled by Mech-Weight) on the Heavier Chassis's would discourage 70-90 Tonn's of armor jumpjetting without using thruster before they are about to hit the ground

So this would make poptarting more optimal for 45-70 tonns over the 90 tonns of armor poptarting you with 30-40 pinpoint alpha's and would give poptarters vulnerabilities but still be able to be used effectively at range unlike the Highlanders with more armor and less risk of poptarting at close/medium range
Lower armored mechs would take less leg damage or none at all if thrusters are used correctly while Heavier Tonned Mechs would require more thrust before landing

• Lower tonned mechs = Less amount of thrust required before they are about to land to avoid leg damage
  
• Lower armored (as compared to victors,Highlanders and Catapratchs) would have the disadvantage of having more risk if poptarting up close to said mechs
  
• A crosshair shake while falling
  
• Or no crosshair shake and make it so if you shoot both your Ballistic and PPC at the same time at a still crosshair , either the Ballistic or PPC will veer off course but one will still remain accurate if there is no crosshair shake
  
• Shooting either only a Ballistic/PPC will cause the crosshair to shake/veer off course drastically/midly so getting it on mark again would be difficult to get that second PPC/Ballistiic hit on

Edited by kesuga7, 09 January 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

It wouldnt change things as much as you think since many premier builds can fit 2 large weapons into the same torso section. If you want true change you need to hit it from the source wich is how the jump jets and weapons interact. Effect the way you can aim while using jump jets and you have a whole new ball game.

Well, right. The Highlander would still be a premier mech. The Cataphract would take it on the chin, though. Net result would be Highlanders everywhere.

Funny thing is, I do way better in a 'Phract than I do an HGN because I can move so much better and faster. Positioning is everything.

I believe in the Tesla pods, individual weapons could overload the electrical system... or something like that. I've always been for a maximum load to recharge weapon-type system. I'm not sure how that would work after a long lunch discussing string-theory. My head is toast at the moment.

The Highlander is and will continue to be a problem no matter what we do. Perhaps it needs more negative quirks to it to balance it out if they removed say, convergence.

If it ever were removed, I guarantee this game would change overnight.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Well, right. The Highlander would still be a premier mech. The Cataphract would take it on the chin, though. Net result would be Highlanders everywhere.

Funny thing is, I do way better in a 'Phract than I do an HGN because I can move so much better and faster. Positioning is everything.

I believe in the Tesla pods, individual weapons could overload the electrical system... or something like that. I've always been for a maximum load to recharge weapon-type system. I'm not sure how that would work after a long lunch discussing string-theory. My head is toast at the moment.

The Highlander is and will continue to be a problem no matter what we do. Perhaps it needs more negative quirks to it to balance it out if they removed say, convergence.

If it ever were removed, I guarantee this game would change overnight.

I do better in a phract and victor then I do a highlander... but people keep putting up amazing numbers in them highlanders so im attributing it to preference. Also victor would not be effected either so we are still back to square one.

As I said change the way jump jets work and you have yourself a ball game, That would be the key since it would even effect the shadow hawk jump snipers (at least to a small degree)

kesuga7, on 09 January 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Man thats not the way to play Mechwarrior - 12 man's , some pugs
i just don't get how people think Having 8-12 Assault/Heavy Mechs with Jumpjets just jumpsnipingwith the same team layout and gameplaystyle is a GOOD Mechwarrior experience

So even if you get within the 80 meters range of a Twin PPC and Ballistic Highlander there is still the Ballistic damaged paired with jumpjets that i have seen able to get you out of the 80 meter range and shoot you mid air while torso twisting
(Its not that hard :L)


On Topic:
Add a SLIGHT jumpjetshake while falling or make the Crosshair still move while mid air but not as much while using the jumpjets
Paired with a introduction of Recoil for ballistics , shooting Your Twin AC 5's midair would offset your aim and only allow either a semi-accurate PPC shot or a semi-accurate
(but this still allows for a inaccurate body shot by the seccond followup weapon shot midair either PPC or ballistic)

This Paired with fall damage (Not too much and scaled by Mech-Weight) on the Heavier Chassis's would discourage 70-90 Tonn's of armor jumpjetting without using thruster before they are about to hit the ground

So this would make poptarting more optimal for 45-70 tonns over the 90 tonns of armor poptarting you with 30-40 pinpoint alpha's and would give poptarters vulnerabilities but still be able to be used effectively at range unlike the Highlanders with more armor and less risk of poptarting at close/medium range
Lower armored mechs would take less leg damage or none at all if thrusters are used correctly while Heavier Tonned Mechs would require more thrust before landing

• Lower tonned mechs = Less amount of thrust required before they are about to land to avoid leg damage
  
• Lower armored (as compared to victors,Highlanders and Catapratchs) would have the disadvantage of having more risk if poptarting up close to said mechs
  
• A crosshair shake while falling
  
• Or no crosshair shake and make it so if you shoot both your Ballistic and PPC at the same time at a still crosshair , either the Ballistic or PPC will veer off course but one will still remain accurate if there is no crosshair shake
  
• Shooting either only a Ballistic/PPC will cause the crosshair to shake/veer off course drastically/midly so getting it on mark again would be difficult to get that second PPC/Ballistiic hit on

Also a good idea. But it wouldnt solve all the problems since many chasis just relay on 2 ppc in the torso. *see above*

[divernb]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Well, right. The Highlander would still be a premier mech. The Cataphract would take it on the chin, though. Net result would be Highlanders everywhere.

Funny thing is, I do way better in a 'Phract than I do an HGN because I can move so much better and faster. Positioning is everything.

I believe in the Tesla pods, individual weapons could overload the electrical system... or something like that. I've always been for a maximum load to recharge weapon-type system. I'm not sure how that would work after a long lunch discussing string-theory. My head is toast at the moment.

The Highlander is and will continue to be a problem no matter what we do. Perhaps it needs more negative quirks to it to balance it out if they removed say, convergence.

If it ever were removed, I guarantee this game would change overnight.

Change to Victors poptarting instead? I think the core issue needs to be looked at. That is, the extreme advantages of JJ's with no disadvantages. And maybe a buff to SRM's ?

[kapusta11]

Stop calling for a nurfs, PGI can't even fix basic stuff, do you really think they can nerf something in a proper way?

[Varent]

divernb, on 09 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Change to Victors poptarting instead? I think the core issue needs to be looked at. That is, the extreme advantages of JJ's with no disadvantages. And maybe a buff to SRM's ?

Yes and no

SRM are fine, just need hit detection fixed.

[Mister Blastman]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Stop calling for a nurfs, PGI can't even fix basic stuff, do you really think they can nerf something in a proper way?

No.

[Bagheera]

Mister Blastman, on 09 January 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

I don't think jump-jetting should be removed, I think the convergent aim, though, should.

I am starting to see the merit in some sort of de-convergence approach.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I read this an thought fighting from a prone position would be so cool!

WTB "Hull Down" module.


---

The thing is there are all sorts of non "pop-tart" (jump-sniping in clusters) ways to use JJs currently. Maybe the solution to keeping those while solving the "pop-tart alpha" problem is, while I am usually not one to say so, convergence related.