125 replies to this topic

[FireSlade]

Denolven, on 20 January 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Actually, you can play PPC or UAC5 easily on lights. The Raven can even mount an AC20. You just can't put 3+ heavy weapons on it. People are not satisfied with one big weapon, because really, there is no such thing as 'enough dakka'.

Here is an example with UAC5 (he also claims to have played a Gauss on the Spider):

Oh I agree that it can be done and in fact my favorite light is running 2 ERPPCs. Problem is that as the light's speed goes down the more unforgiving the design becomes. So at 100-120kph 1 mistake may cost you an early death, where as a 151-170kph speed may give you a chance to make several mistakes before you die.

[Gaan Cathal]

Set Tesh, on 10 January 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

we DO NOT KNOW, if the engine sizes will be the ones listed in lore, we DO NOT KNOW, if the armour values will be the same,
they have already said they have to change lore values for clan tech in general to balance them, this means WE DO NOT KNOW!

Yes, we do. They sell mechs as stock variants. In the case of Clans we know that stock configs. will replace stock variants. Ergo we know the engine sizes and armour of the Clan mechs.

We also know they will be unable to change these values.

We ergo know which ones will be utterly ****. The Lights, for example, are both too slow for MW:O, and slightly underarmoured. The Mediums are actually passable. The Timberwolf will be decent, the Summoner DOA since it will be able to do nothing the Timberwolf can't while being slow and with the armour of an underdressed medium. The Assaults are both passable, but with very little to distinguish between them asides from model, so it'll entirely depend on hitbox.

[Escef]

Redshift2k5, on 20 January 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

They'll be relegated to tiny snipers and disposable scouts :/

That's not even a bad thing. FotM in lights right now appears to be to pack ERLLs/ERPPCs. And it works if done right.

[Roadkill]

FupDup, on 17 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I don't recall any rules stating that armor and engines could ever increase without a total refit of the unit.

Escef, on 17 January 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

The only things that even come close to this are int he advanced and experimental rules if you use a Super Charger (works like MASC) or Modular Armor (provides penalties as well). You do not well remember TT rules.

Hmm... entirely possible. I haven't played TT for a number of years, so my memory could be failing. Or the person who ran our games may have been allowing some house rules in Mech construction. I'll have to go dig out my old books and see what I can find.

FupDup, on 17 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Unless PGI changes their mind from what they've written in the Command Chair, IS Battlemechs will have overall much more open customization (which is totally bassackwards). They chose to follow TT for Omnimechs, but not for BMs. In fact, Omnis in MWO will actually be LESS customizable than TT because of hardpoints.

Yep, I'm agreeing with you.

TT rules did allow for BM customization, but it was difficult, expensive, somewhat limited, and took time. OM could swap out weapons between battles. They're supposed to be far more versatile that BM, but PGI's completely screwing it up.

In theory I understand what they're trying to do, but in doing it they're losing the essence of BattleTech. Clan Mechs aren't supposed to be balanced against Inner Sphere Mechs, especially in this time frame. If they wanted balance between the Clans and the IS, they needed to use a different timeframe. Either that or base the game in 3025 and ignore the Clans.

[Sephlock]

Escef, on 20 January 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

That's not even a bad thing. FotM in lights right now appears to be to pack ERLLs/ERPPCs. And it works if done right.

That's true but it's also boring as ****. Sometimes I just get bored and Leeroy Jenkins .

[Snoopy]

I fear the next balance mechanism : ghost -tonnage for the "OP " clan mechs . Hope I'm wrong ...

[Jon Gotham]

Escef, on 20 January 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

That's not even a bad thing. FotM in lights right now appears to be to pack ERLLs/ERPPCs. And it works if done right.

Well, if assault mechs were not so stupidly agile for what they are, maybe light pilots would not resort to long range sniping so much.
I've watched several of the faster assault mechs (read:ultra medium) pull some frankly silly feats of manouverability vs lights in close combat. If you are 80+ tons you SHOULD be at a major disadvantage vs something running at 125kph+ around you. As it stands, with jump jets and assaults moving at 85kph......A sensible light pilot packs those ppcs/LL's.....

[KursedVixen]

cdlord, on 10 January 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Oh one of THESE threads again....

You know, if I had 1 MC for every time someone said a mech was DOA without it even being in the game yet, well, I wouldn't need to spend any real money on this game. Some of my favorite mechs are the predicted DOA ones.... Spider, Victor, Orion, Jester, Deaths Knell, Blackjack, etc.... Just crying wolf here...

Just stop thinking, sit back, and wait till they arrive. Nothing you say is gonna change their mind at this stage anyways. Have to wait till they are played for any real world data.

just wait till a slow Uller kills your spider in a fight then complain about DOA

[NRP]

MischiefSC, on 19 January 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

If the Phoenix Package is any indicator, here's what it'll look like - Most of the Clan mechs will be, at best, mediocre. Any chassis that come as the 'premium' version (XP and/or cbill bonus) will be flat out inferior. Clearly you deserve to be punished for buying the package and ensuring that the one you get the bonus on is the worst of the batch is a solid way to do it. There will be probably two chassis out of the whole bunch that will be solid performers. The Timber Wolf will not be one. Expect to regret however much or little you spend on the clan package. With the exception of the Ilya (a unique AC hardpoint configuration, only 3xLB10X/best 3xUAC5 config) and every Phoenix mech save the moderately performing Shawk, every mech bought with cash has been largely a let-down. You watch. The actual release of the clan mechs will be one of the most depressing events in MW:O history, and that's saying something.

If it goes down like this, it will be the community's fault. They have cried so loudly and so annoyingly about everything being "pay to win" that PGI has clearly felt compelled to make the Prime variants (as well as most Heros) mediocre. I wish PGI would ignore these whiny fools and release something that is truly outstanding and totally pay to win.

PGI's 2014 mantra should be "Embrace the rage!"

[Sephlock]

They're going to be glass cannons

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 21 January 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

They're going to be glass cannons

If by "cannon" you mean carrying the firepower of an ENTIRE Cicada or Blackjack, then you're absolutely correct.


(Oh, and the Kit Fox has similar armor levels as an MWO Locust. Enjoy!).

Edited by FupDup, 21 January 2014 - 06:50 PM.

[Josef Nader]

FupDup, on 21 January 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

(Oh, and the Kit Fox has similar armor levels as an MWO Locust. Enjoy!).

Kit Fox Prime is an LBX5, ER Large, SSRM4, and a Small Pulse. Say what you want, you're going to be very hard pressed to pack that kind of firepower on a current light mech. For comparison, try fitting an SRM4, an AC2, and an ER Large on a light mech.

Will the Kit Fox be competitive? No. Will it be DoA? Hell no. Will it be difficult but fun? I think so.

[Denolven]

Roadkill, on 20 January 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

In theory I understand what they're trying to do, but in doing it they're losing the essence of BattleTech. Clan Mechs aren't supposed to be balanced against Inner Sphere Mechs, especially in this time frame.

I'll be honest with you. When sticking to BattleTech means screwing up MWO even more, then MWO has to leave BattleTech.

If Clan Mechs will be significantly stonger than IS Mechs, then it will be another nail in the coffin for MWO, and a big one. Because from a game design point of view, it would kill large parts of the game, quite literally. Everyone wants them to stick to the origin. But not at all cost. And a dead game is too much cost.

[Derpington Von Trollington]

Josef Nader, on 22 January 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

For comparison, try fitting an SRM4, an AC2, and an ER Large on a light mech.

RVN-4X
Done.
What do i win?

EDIT: It even have near max armor.
The uller prime have an XL 180 right? A spider (30 tons like the Uller) with a 180xl goes 5km/h faster than this raven, if you remove the small pulse and use an xl 210 they will move at the same speed.
EDIT2: Here a Adder RVN-2X

Edited by Derpington Von Trollington, 22 January 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 22 January 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Kit Fox Prime is an LBX5, ER Large, SSRM4, and a Small Pulse. Say what you want, you're going to be very hard pressed to pack that kind of firepower on a current light mech. For comparison, try fitting an SRM4, an AC2, and an ER Large on a light mech.

Will the Kit Fox be competitive? No. Will it be DoA? Hell no. Will it be difficult but fun? I think so.

The thing is, you don't really need that kind of hardware on a light. A current Jenner with 5-6 ML packs plenty of punch, with good speed and mostly max armor (albeit with CT hitbox issues). It's basically trying to go overkill on the payload at the expense of sacrificing the only advantage the light class has over heavier classes. The analogy I like to use is that a slow, overgunned light is similar to a fast, undergunned assault like the Charger in terms of effectiveness. Of course it will still be able to kill stuff, but it's not the best way to use a mech of that size. I'd honestly rather take a Stormcrow over either Clan light for the same speed, with more armor and pod space.


As for the stock Fox loadout, using an Autocannon like the LBX 5 on a light is kind of silly seeing how lasers and missiles have a better damage-per-tonnage ratio. Ballistics work best on mechs with a lot of tonnage to burn, i.e. heavies and assaults. Plus, being an LBX, it will inherent the same issues that the current LB 10-X has (it will be a bad weapon). The Ultra 5 is a straight-up better choice, although lasers and missiles are even better for a mech with limited tonnage to spend.

Edited by FupDup, 22 January 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Roadkill]

Derpington Von Trollington, on 22 January 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

RVN-4X
Done.
What do i win?

You win the right to get ROFLstomped by every Shadowhawk in the game.

Congrats!

[Sephlock]

Denolven, on 22 January 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

I'll be honest with you. When sticking to BattleTech means screwing up MWO even more, then MWO has to leave BattleTech.

If Clan Mechs will be significantly stonger than IS Mechs, then it will be another nail in the coffin for MWO, and a big one. Because from a game design point of view, it would kill large parts of the game, quite literally. Everyone wants them to stick to the origin. But not at all cost. And a dead game is too much cost.

Then how are they going to handle the is versions of clan tech?

[Zyllos]

They are not following the TT rules for Battlemech and Omnimech construction.

Battlemechs require time and C-Bills making changes to most of the mech, including weapons.

Omnimechs can swap all weapons at any given moment at the cost of fixed components.

There is no time component, which is the worst of the drawbacks for battlemechs, because of the nature of having an online videogame. So then battlemechs basically trade some C-Bill costs for almost complete full customization while omnimechs lose almost all customization for the tradeoff of equipping any weapon (which is already mostly capable by battlemechs).

Edited by Zyllos, 22 January 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Denolven]

Sephlock, on 22 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Then how are they going to handle the is versions of clan tech?

I don't see why that has any relevance to what I said. I recommend the following short video - it demonstrates what I meant:

[FupDup]

Zyllos, on 22 January 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

They are not following the TT rules for Battlemech and Omnimech construction.

Battlemechs require time and C-Bills making changes to most of the mech, including weapons.

Omnimechs can swap all weapons at any given moment at the cost of fixed components.

There is no time component, which is the worst of the drawbacks for battlemechs, because of the nature of having an online videogame. So then battlemechs basically trade some C-Bill costs for almost complete full customization while omnimechs lose almost all customization for the tradeoff of equipping any weapon (which is already mostly capable by battlemechs).

What makes it worse is that Clan mechs now have hardpoints to deal with, whereas in TT we could do weird things like 10 MGs on a Thor if we felt like it. And, we can't see the map we're about to deploy on, so we can't min-max our loadouts for the mission parameters (i.e. spam lasers on cold maps, LRMs on large open maps, etc. etc.). The only advantage they have here is lighter and smaller weapons...but at what cost?

Edited by FupDup, 22 January 2014 - 11:06 AM.