125 replies to this topic

[beerandasmoke]

More than likely it will be the IS lights that get pwned. Consider the new streak SRM6 which will make it next to impossible to approach any group of mechs that includes clan mechs. Seriously, all a clan pilot has to do is slap one or two of these on a mech with a BAP and possibly an Artemis and you are pretty much safe from the circle strafe of death that many jenner and spider pilots do so well. One clan light with 2 SRM6 streaks can protect an entire group and decimate any IS lights that come close. Look at the carnage Oxide pilots are accomplishing and imagine 2 SRM6 streaks firing in tandem at one light. No, you will see the IS light meta change from ML to long range sniping with PPCs and ERLL. If they allow clan mechs to reach the same speeds that IS light mechs achieve then you will probably not even see anyone running IS lights anymore. Im glad they are going to be slower so my spider and commando at least have a fighting chance.

Edited by beerandasmoke, 10 January 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Escef]

Call me crazy if you like, but I'm going to withhold judgement on clan light mechs being dead on arrival until they actually arrive.

The only clan mech I expect to be DoA is one that has not yet been announced: Loki/Hellbringer. However, since it isn't even announced, I am going to content myself with saying that if they make it I have low expectations for it.

A lot of people declared the Shadowhawk to be DoA long before its release. Within days of Project Phoenix's release people discovered that the SHDs were the best medium mech made to date.

Edited by Escef, 10 January 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[18 Inches of Hard Steel]

FireSlade, on 10 January 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

I just see that a change in tactics will be needed. Light mechs will no longer be able to run in the open dodging shots but instead will have to use terrain and cover. Also, we have no idea how things will play out with the Clans PGI might give some Clan lights a speed boosting quirk or MASC might be available when they come. Hard to call something DOA. One prediction though is that I see the Adder being the most used light; small profile, heavily armored (for a Clan light), and sporting two CERPPCs that if left untouched will do 15 damage to at least 810 meters. Name an Innersphere light that can dump 30 pinpoint damage into a single location now...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ccfb37dec2c0e1a
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...784fc9294c5e2e4

[Praehotec8]

It's too early to tell as we have too few concrete details, and all our information has been put forth with the caveat *subject to change* by the devs. However, so far what we have heard is concerning.

I do think it's too early to totally cry doom, and give up, but it's very important that these concerns are put forth in the hopes (vain perhaps?) that such concerns will be taken into consideration, thereby avoiding a situation where the clan mechs, for the first time ever, must fear the Inner Sphere.

18 Inches of Hard Steel, on 13 January 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ccfb37dec2c0e1a
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...784fc9294c5e2e4

Now, now, that's only 20 points! =P

[KharnZor]

DOA? here's me thinking they haven even got here yet.

[WildmouseX]

18 Inches of Hard Steel, on 10 January 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

They will have more weapons, but clan tech is nerfed so it will be much like putting heavy weapons on a light we have now.

Any light pilots who run their lights slow and with heavy weapons?

would this count? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...27dffa786026c43

[Utilyan]

I'm having fun with locusts...... So imagine this guy shows up:





Fire moth. (dasher)

Would he be as tiny as a locust?!
I remember in MechWarrior 2 they were not tiny...... But that can change here.


And if you want to have traditional mechwarriors throw a fit...... Imagine this tiny 20-tonner:

Snow Fox




And lets not forget prob the most frightening mech of all:

A CLAN urbanmech!

[KharnZor]

A clan urban mech you say?

NEVER!

[Roadkill]

KharnZor, on 13 January 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

DOA? here's me thinking they haven even got here yet.

DO"SOON"

[KharnZor]

Roadkill, on 14 January 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

DO"SOON"

No.

[Denolven]

18 Inches of Hard Steel, on 10 January 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

The number one rule of piloting a light is DO NOT STOP MOVING.

Then you are probably not a good light mech pilot, because you didn't get it.
The number one rule is not about moving, or speed. the number one rule is DO NOT GET HIT BY BIG STUFF. I agree that speed helps with that, if applied properly, but there are other ways too. Like, you know, using brains and learning to see what is actually going on, instead of mindlessly running around at 170 kph and being useless. Speed is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. It's not about what cards you get, it's about how you play them. None of my actively played lights use their max engine (in fact I've never seen anyone else using a 265 on a Jenner), and all are perfectly fine.

Edited by Denolven, 15 January 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[Josef Nader]

If you play Clan lights in to the traditional scouting meta? Sure, they're gonna be pretty bad. If you play them like they were supposed to work in tabletop (I.e. super agile assassins designed to knock out heavies and assaults and then escape before the big boys can fight back), they're going to be devastating. Small, low profile, kitted out with long range weapons and enough speed to keep their distance from larger targets, clan lights are going to redefine how light mechs interact with the meta.

We've all laughed at the single ERPPC spider hiding on a hilltop and plugging away at targets half the map away as a quaint joke build. Now imagine that spider hits like a gausscat. Not so funny anymore.

Edited by Josef Nader, 15 January 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[18 Inches of Hard Steel]

Denolven, on 15 January 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Then you are probably not a good light mech pilot, because you didn't get it.
The number one rule is not about moving, or speed. the number one rule is DO NOT GET HIT BY BIG STUFF. I agree that speed helps with that, if applied properly, but there are other ways too. Like, you know, using brains and learning to see what is actually going on, instead of mindlessly running around at 170 kph and being useless. Speed is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. It's not about what cards you get, it's about how you play them. None of my actively played lights use their max engine (in fact I've never seen anyone else using a 265 on a Jenner), and all are perfectly fine.

This is shocking, I'll try and take it point by point.

-DO NOT GET HIT BY BIG STUFF
This is advice to who? A caveman? Really?
Some mechs can get away with moving slowly or not at all, my statement was about just light mechs. Most weapons combinations can kill a light mech in one hit or at least severely damage a component of the mech. Why would you ever need to give the opportunity for this to happen?

-using brains and learning to see what is actually going on
More fantastic advice. Who said turn off your brain?
Lights are scouts, moving lets you see things, moving fast lets you see more things…

-mindlessly running around
Where does this come from? Spite? Do you not like my name?

-Speed is a tool, nothing more and nothing less.
I don't know how this is an argument against my post, speed is a light’s most important tool.
I have never killed another mech while in a light due to:
-Heavier Weapons
-Heavier Armor
I have killed another mech while in a light due to:
-‘Using brains’
-And having superior speed helps…

-It's not about what cards you get, it's about how you play them.
In MWO I get to choose my cards and how I play them, maybe you’re thinking of a game where the mechs are randomly built…

-(in fact I've never seen anyone else using a 265 on a Jenner)
You can never tell for sure what engine someone has while in match, this is only speculation.

You took a thirteen word excerpt from my post and extrapolated that I’m a bad pilot who doesn’t use his brain, while supporting this statement without a single fact or logically constructed argument.

‘using brains and learning to see what is actually going on’

Edited by 18 Inches of Hard Steel, 15 January 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[18 Inches of Hard Steel]

Josef Nader, on 15 January 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

If you play Clan lights in to the traditional scouting meta? Sure, they're gonna be pretty bad. If you play them like they were supposed to work in tabletop (I.e. super agile assassins designed to knock out heavies and assaults and then escape before the big boys can fight back), they're going to be devastating. Small, low profile, kitted out with long range weapons and enough speed to keep their distance from larger targets, clan lights are going to redefine how light mechs interact with the meta.

We've all laughed at the single ERPPC spider hiding on a hilltop and plugging away at targets half the map away as a quaint joke build. Now imagine that spider hits like a gausscat. Not so funny anymore.

Paul said this:

As an example, what would will probably be applied to this weapon is the following:

• Reduce the max range but still give it a slight edge over IS tech. Change from 750m to 660m for a 90m increase over IS tech.
  
• Increase the beam duration of the laser to spread damage over more time.
  
• Make the Heat Scale slightly higher than the IS version.

What the above changes allows to happen is that the Clan ER Large Laser still gets a reach buff, still gets to have higher damage, still gets the tonnage and space reduction but requires the player to hold targets longer and it will generate much more heat when Alpha’d. i.e. The weapon still keeps its Clan properties/feel but requires better skill and heat management to operate.


I love the idea of clan lights changing the meta with heavy builds. Based on what we have heard about clan tech the weapons will be mostly balanced with IS tech (see above).
Therefore a heavy built clan mech that hits like a gausscat will be much like if you built a current IS light that hits like a gausscat.
The problem is that this is all a clan light can do when it has the restrictions on engine and armor size, and heavy long range weapon lights do not dominate the meta.

Edited by 18 Inches of Hard Steel, 15 January 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[J0anna]

Escef, on 10 January 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Call me crazy if you like, but I'm going to withhold judgement on clan light mechs being dead on arrival until they actually arrive.

The only clan mech I expect to be DoA is one that has not yet been announced: Loki/Hellbringer. However, since it isn't even announced, I am going to content myself with saying that if they make it I have low expectations for it.

A lot of people declared the Shadowhawk to be DoA long before its release. Within days of Project Phoenix's release people discovered that the SHDs were the best medium mech made to date.

First off to the op, you've hit the nail on the head. Stop all the theory crafting and realize the obvious, if it was any advantage to pilot a slow, lightly armored, heavily armed light mech - people would be doing it now. PGI is nerfing clan weapons down to IS levels - making the mechs only limitedly customizable is their death sentence. So mechs will be playable - perhaps, because we don't know about clan heatsinks (will they be true doubles?), or how ghost heat will impact clan weapons, or if we'll be able to add heat sinks at all, nor how if we can't change engines and armor, we're going to get enough ammo in the mechs (clan mechs normally carry 1 ton of ammo per weapon.....)

As far as the Hellbringer goes, it has one significant advantage (which is probably why you can't have it) - it carries ECM. Sadly the Summoner has NO advantages (light weapons and armor, more speed and jj than you even need). Sadly PGI is asking for money for mechs that they only have theoritical information on. I need more data before I can make an informed decision.

[Josef Nader]

18 Inches of Hard Steel, on 15 January 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

I love the idea of clan lights changing the meta with heavy builds. Based on what we have heard about clan tech the weapons will be mostly balanced with IS tech (see above).
Therefore a heavy built clan mech that hits like a gausscat will be much like if you built a current IS light that hits like a gausscat.
The problem is that this is all a clan light can do when it has the restrictions on engine and armor size, and heavy long range weapon lights do not dominate the meta.

You're forgetting a major factor; we don't have a lot of the weapons Clan lights have available to them yet. If the LB2/5 was in the game, or 5 ton LRM 20s (I know they talked about upping the weight on these, but I don't see how they can without breaking canon mechs over their knee), or 7 crit Endo/Ferro, or 2 crit DHS. All of these things make a huge difference to the meta and are -definitely- going to change how much design is approached. Clan lights are very different beasts to IS lights, and I definitely think they'll have a place, especially if they don't mixtech.

[Rhaythe]

This thread is silly.

[Fate 6]

cdlord, on 10 January 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Oh one of THESE threads again....

You know, if I had 1 MC for every time someone said a mech was DOA without it even being in the game yet, well, I wouldn't need to spend any real money on this game. Some of my favorite mechs are the predicted DOA ones.... Spider, Victor, Orion, Jester, Deaths Knell, Blackjack, etc.... Just crying wolf here...

Just stop thinking, sit back, and wait till they arrive. Nothing you say is gonna change their mind at this stage anyways. Have to wait till they are played for any real world data.

Blackjack, Death's Knell, Jester, Orion were all DoA. The Spider was also pretty mediocre when it was released (changes to the game have made it better, along with somehow worse hit registering).

The ONLY mech I have seen that was far from DoA is the Shadowhawk. Again that has a lot to do with the changes to the game. The Griffin would have been a GOD this time last year

[FupDup]

Fate 6, on 15 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Blackjack, Death's Knell, Jester, Orion were all DoA. The Spider was also pretty mediocre when it was released (changes to the game have made it better, along with somehow worse hit registering).
---

Don't forget the Lolcust, Trebuchet, and the pre-buff Kintaro (back when it was all CT).

Edited by FupDup, 15 January 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Josef Nader]

The Blackjack is and always has been a monster. It actually illustrates the problem very well. The Blackjack is an amazing weapons platform... if you stop trying to build it like other mediums (hunchbacks, cent-bombers, etc). The Blackjack's small profile, high-mounted weapons, and jump capability make it the best AC2 direct fire support platform in the game. It doesn't have to go fast, it's supporting heavies and assaults, and moving ahead of them is a mistake. It carries enough backup firepower to deter lights (4 mediums is nothing to sneeze at), and a pair of AC2s firing indiscriminately into the enemy lines is a whopping 8 damage a second you're throwing into the battle without ever endangering yourself. The small profile and high weapons of the blackjack make it uniquely suited to thia role. Its a fantastic little monster.

But, if you just try to throw an AC20 and a big engine on it like an anorexic hunchback, its ****-poor torso twist and thin armor doom it to the dung heap.

tl;dr people try to force mechs to fit their idea of what's good without taking a step back and examining what that particular mech might be good at. Chassis shape, size, and weapon placement play a huge role in balancing. Declaring a chassis DoA just because it doesn't work with the current FOTM is dumb.

Edited by Josef Nader, 15 January 2014 - 09:51 AM.