137 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Uncle Monkey, on 14 January 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Right? That has to be one of the most difficult things for a new player to understand, getting stomped even if they are playing well.

Well if new players cannot understand that if the team does not pull its weight it is going to lose... They missed something important growing up.

[Doctor Proctor]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

Well if new players cannot understand that if the team does not pull its weight it is going to lose... They missed something important growing up.

I think he more means the situation where you're doing great and you're on your 4th kill, and your lance has been carving it's way through the enemy, but your overall team is now 6 to 9 and you just get focused fired to death at the end of the match by their superior numbers. To the player, his personal performance was great, but it can be hard to know what (if anything) he can improve to ensure that the next match is a win.

In most matches I'm in, for example, I'm at the middle of the pack or amongst the top 2 or 3 on my team. There's the occasional "Oh {Scrap}" moment where I turn a bad corner and get cored after doing less than 100 damage of course, but overall I tend to fairly decently. However, my W/L ratio sits at around 1.1 and it's not very clear how I, as an individual, can change that. I've had matches where I'm on the losing team, yet have the highest match score of the round and got 5 kills!

I tried many things like communicating in matches (often I'm the only one talking on my entire team for the duration of a match) and giving orders as a Commander, but rarely does it really make much of a difference. I've tried sticking with the group, hanging back a bit and supporting our flanks as well as leading the charge. Most times, I get essentially that same result: middle to high performance for the match, sometimes being the highest scorer on either team, but still with a 1.1 W/L ratio. Yes, yes, I know..."Play with a group", but we're talking about individual players here.

It all comes down to the fundamental problem with Elo. If I'm a good player that performs well there's no component of my Elo score that tracks that. As a solo player my ability to influence a match, even when I'm playing quite well, is rather limited since I'm only 1 on a team of 12. Yet, I'm rated on that group performance and as such it can be very difficult to get to a higher Elo bracket where I'm being matched with and against coordinated players that know the games systems and are able to communicate and use tactics. Until we have that individual component we're going to continue to have good vets matched with and against complete newbies that don't have a good grasp of the fundamentals of MWO, and being at the mercy of whether or not they have an equal or greater number of coordinated premades on their team to determine the victor.

[Joseph Mallan]

Doc if one cannot accept his own performance as worthy even in loss, then there is no hope for him. We celebrate the losers that Spartans were at Thermopylae. Why can't we celebrate the good job we do even in defeat?

[Mister Blastman]

Doctor Proctor, on 15 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I think he more means the situation where you're doing great and you're on your 4th kill, and your lance has been carving it's way through the enemy, but your overall team is now 6 to 9 and you just get focused fired to death at the end of the match by their superior numbers. To the player, his personal performance was great, but it can be hard to know what (if anything) he can improve to ensure that the next match is a win.

This isn't Mechwarrior, this is Russian Roulette. Where have you been?

[Doctor Proctor]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Doc if one cannot accept his own performance as worthy even in loss, then there is no hope for him. We celebrate the losers that Spartans were at Thermopylae. Why can't we celebrate the good job we do even in defeat?

I didn't say that if I perform well but lose the match that it's not a worthy performance, just that it can be difficult to understand why in Match A I won while getting 4 kills but in Match B I lost while getting 4 kills. Many times those wins and losses are out of my control entirely and that can be a bit confusing/frustrating for newer players.

[Abivard]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Doc if one cannot accept his own performance as worthy even in loss, then there is no hope for him. We celebrate the losers that Spartans were at Thermopylae. Why can't we celebrate the good job we do even in defeat?

As Patton said:
When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

[Crockdaddy]

I see the same names constantly in most of my matches. Nearly all of them from what would be considered the upper tier bracket. It is such that I at times wonder if those guys are the only ones playing. I see them regardless if I am solo or grouped in a 2 to 4 man group. I don't know what a win % translates into an ELO score but I would be curious to find out.

[Deathlike]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 15 January 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I see the same names constantly in most of my matches. Nearly all of them from what would be considered the upper tier bracket. It is such that I at times wonder if those guys are the only ones playing. I see them regardless if I am solo or grouped in a 2 to 4 man group. I don't know what a win % translates into an ELO score but I would be curious to find out.

Welcome to the island. We hope you never leave.

[WarZ]

zhajin, on 14 January 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

but overall it still seems better than the day of completely random matching.

I wholeheartedly unequivocally DISAGREE. Now its worse. You are almost guaranteed to get a bunch of poor new players in facing top tier players. Matchmaker is inadvertently heavily stacking one team to win against the other. You get as many rolls and roflstomps now as you ever did with random matchmaking. Sure there are some close games, but there were ALWAYS close games, even with completely random players and no tonnage matching. MM will often put two 4 mans on the same team, and no 4 mans on the other team. Which in my case at least means I always get stuck on the raw end of that deal when pugging.

The best period of matchmaking for the game occurred when they didnt have elo and used a "tonnage matching" system that was in effect for a short time before elo came online. It wasnt perfect either but it did a better job than we have now.

I note that the only evidence we have for elo vs pre elo comparisons are observations. I have not seen a dev post a comment saying "based on the #'s we are seeing better match quality with our current elo system". I'm positive it is because they cant make that statement. And if by chance they have made a statement like that, then they absolutely did not back it up with any kind of numbers.

Probably the best way to handle matchmaking is tonnage & class matching with random matchups and keeping players with under 100 games in their own pool together.

Edited by WarZ, 15 January 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[RG Notch]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 January 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

You mean like THIS Island?

AKA Staten Island! Population 470,000+

Umm that's Manhattan, population 1.7 million.

[Hexenhammer]

Of course ELO is borked and we players did it to ourselves.


With a large population if the player base playing skirmish only that kills the queue for assault and conquest. So if your playing them you have to weight longer for teams to be made.

[WarZ]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Doc if one cannot accept his own performance as worthy even in loss, then there is no hope for him. We celebrate the losers that Spartans were at Thermopylae. Why can't we celebrate the good job we do even in defeat?

Except those Spartans were brutally murdered in the end by overwhelming odds and had little choice in the matter. And though they willing fought the fight and made the sacrifice to hold (because there was no other choice), they probably would have been far happier living through it and enjoying more battles and more of the fruits of victory.

So when you get ganged by 8 mechs vs 1 at the end of a roflstomp, you have no choice in that its 8 v 1 at that point and your stuck with it, but you certainly would be happier if you werent getting gang gibbed in such a crappy situation, with just about zero chance to do anything about it but take it. Unless you run you are dying hard and fast with little recourse.

So no matter how good your performance, whats going to stick with you is how ****** it was that you got stuck fighting 8v1 and was obliterated in moments with no recourse (usually).

It never feels epic in a roflstomp.

[Wispsy]

Hotthedd, on 14 January 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

I took a break from the game back in September, and came back this month to see what the state of the game was. When I left, matchmaker no longer used class or tonnage for the MM, but DID use Elo (which was supposed to get better over time, as more matches were played).

However, I a consistently playing in matches were there are seasoned veterans and literal first time players in the same drop.

Did PGI just give up on Elo? If so, what is the matchmaker using to determine teams? Are all drops just randomized now?

I do not know if this was mentioned yet but I saw a number of posts saying "is same just low population". Well turns out, recently yes indeed PGI did change their matchmaking system and Elo appears to mean very little right now, however tonnages are on average a lot closer most of the time. Even tonnage and vastly different skill however, is not like most people thought it would be, and the majority of games are COMPLETE roflstomps not less. In 2 days of playing solo/duo/4man I have found games almost every time I have hit drop (which was crazily rare before, sometimes you could go an entire day without getting a drop) but I have only lost 2 of those games (and I play for LONG hours at a time, like 8+) and have been pitted against trial mechs and all sorts of people WAY below my skill level. So yes, you are essentially correct, however it is not removed completely, just basically ignored in hopes of getting faster games with more equal tonnage.

[Joseph Mallan]

WarZ, on 15 January 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Except those Spartans were brutally murdered in the end by overwhelming odds and had little choice in the matter. And though they willing fought the fight and made the sacrifice to hold (because there was no other choice), they probably would have been far happier living through it and enjoying more battles and more of the fruits of victory.

So when you get ganged by 8 mechs vs 1 at the end of a roflstomp, you have no choice in that its 8 v 1 at that point and your stuck with it, but you certainly would be happier if you werent getting gang gibbed in such a crappy situation, with just about zero chance to do anything about it but take it. Unless you run you are dying hard and fast with little recourse.

So no matter how good your performance, whats going to stick with you is how ****** it was that you got stuck fighting 8v1 and was obliterated in moments with no recourse (usually).

It never feels epic in a roflstomp.

Funny, when I die in a ROFLStomp and see I did, 400-600 damage, 2-5 kills and/or some assists I feel great. If I do half of that, I feel good. Less than that and I blame myself for sucking! Guess being an old gamer with decades of play gives me a different view on whats important and what is not.

Doctor Proctor, on 15 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I didn't say that if I perform well but lose the match that it's not a worthy performance, just that it can be difficult to understand why in Match A I won while getting 4 kills but in Match B I lost while getting 4 kills. Many times those wins and losses are out of my control entirely and that can be a bit confusing/frustrating for newer players.

How is it confusing if you already said the answer?

RG Notch, on 15 January 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Umm that's Manhattan, population 1.7 million.

Not according to Google!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[RG Notch]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Not according to Google!

Well that's what you get for relying on Google. The only thing related to Staten Island in that pic is the Ferry.

[Joseph Mallan]

Abivard, on 15 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

As Patton said:
When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

Funny my hero growing up was my Dad. He got up every morning, went to work, came home and gave of himself to us. He never complained cause he wasn't rich, or famous, he was just a good man who did the right things for the right reasons. Win or lose, he showed respect, an always found a reason to be be proud of what he had done.

As for Patton, Well if I was a coward and failed cause I didn't try, well I would hate on myself. Not blame others for the failure.

RG Notch, on 17 January 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Well that's what you get for relying on Google. The only thing related to Staten Island in that pic is the Ferry.

As I have never been to New York, or Staten Island... Google should be more accurate.

This is what I know about New York!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Abivard]

LOL Patton a coward? Where did you go to school? Moscow?
You claim your father was a hero because he got up in the morning and went to work? You have no idea what a hero is do you?

Winners are not always heroes and losers are not always cowards.

But someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose is always to be despised.

BTW do any of those pictures of NYC you know, look at all like the Staten island pic you posted as Manhattan?

[Joseph Mallan]

Abivard, on 17 January 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

LOL Patton a coward? Where did you go to school? Moscow?
You claim your father was a hero because he got up in the morning and went to work? You have no idea what a hero is do you?

Winners are not always heroes and losers are not always cowards.

But someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose is always to be despised.

BTW do any of those pictures of NYC you know, look at all like the Staten island pic you posted as Manhattan?

I didn't call Patton a Coward. But his idea of courage is fairly one dimensional. Being a winner does not make you a hero. Many Heroes win their awards/recognition Posthumously.

I have plenty of knowledge of what a hero is. Its someone who does what needs to be done, day after day, never asking for Glory or Fame. Leading by example and always willing to help those in need. A hero is brave one second longer than you are. Why in the world would I want to idolize someone who participates in a sport? What have they done to earn my idolization, I served as a Marine, I have friends and family who laid down their lives to allow you to be a nit picking turnip. Don't ask me if I know what a Hero is, I have family who landed on Normand and who were on Iwa Jima. They played a mean hand of Euchre too!

Dude let go of the Picts. You have a very dangerous fixation man.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 January 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Doctor Proctor, on 15 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I didn't say that if I perform well but lose the match that it's not a worthy performance, just that it can be difficult to understand why in Match A I won while getting 4 kills but in Match B I lost while getting 4 kills. Many times those wins and losses are out of my control entirely and that can be a bit confusing/frustrating for newer players.

What if the other team had 2 people who were just way, way better than you? You did well because you were chewing through the nubblets on their team while they demolished the nubblets on your team. They were better, killing your nubblets faster than you killed theirs so when it came time for the fight between higher Elo players, they were better and had higher numbers.

You didn't lose because your team was terrible.

You lost because as good as you were, the other team was better.

A Hero is a fighter in AD&D who makes it to 4th level. Not that big a deal. At 9th level though they are a Lord and they can make a freehold and attract men-at-arms! Also maxed out HD. **** JUST GOT REAL.

You want a list of heros in real life, here's a solid example. Read some of those stories for perspective. It's a broad term but most people know it when they see it.

[Joseph Mallan]

139 pages of heroism. Thank You sir.