172 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

DocBach, you keep forgetting "increasing sensor range", although TBH, that is a rather niche feature actually (which is auto-blocked by ECM anyways).

[DocBach]

Yep, I keep forgetting what ECM does because its effect is so limited and ineffective in battle that I don't remember exactly what it does beyond cancel out ECM in its shorter range.

[Khobai]

I think BAP is just about right for a 1.5 piece of equipment. I mean it really shouldnt be game breaking for 1.5 tons.

ECM really does need a nerf. It needs to be seperated into two systems: ECM and NSS. Null Signature System should be the only way to gain 75% sensor stealth.

So basically:

NSS (can only be equipped by mechs that can use ECM)
-gives you 75% sensor stealth (detected at 200m)
-comes with built-in ECM
-takes up 1 crit in each location on your mech as well as some tonnage
-generates moderate heat when activated

ECM (can only be equipped by mechs that can use ECM)
-negates artemis, narc, tag, bap, etc...
-can switch to counter ecm mode
-doubles lock-on time of missiles (but no longer prevents missiles from locking on completely)
-no longer reduces sensor detection range

BAP (can be equipped by any mech)
-increased sensor range and detailed info speed
-counter ecm mode
-lets you detect shutdown enemy mechs
-lets you deploy upto 2 stationary sensor probes (bap lets you do this in battletech)

Additionally there should be active and passive sensor modes. Active sensor mode would be the same sensor mode we use currently. While passive sensor mode would turn off your active sensors (i.e. no red triangles or red boxes and cant target enemies at all) but also significantly decrease the range you can be detected at (id say 400m would be fair for passive sensor mode). Passive sensor mode would be like ghetto NSS for mechs that cant use NSS/ECM.

In 2 minutes ive balanced information warfare better than PGI could in a year...

Edited by Khobai, 16 January 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[DocBach]

The interaction between BAP and ECM in advanced Battletech was very yin and yangy - BAP detected 'Mechs that were hidden and allowed you to look at enemy record sheets, ECM blocked it. ECM could emit sensor noise that added a +1 modifier to hit, BAP cancelled that.

Easy way to implement that in the game would be give Beagle to look at a more detailed readout of a 'Mech to show location of things like ammo, engine type, etc and have an ability like seismics but have ECM block these -- in fact ECM block paper doll of targeted 'Mechs, which itself is a decent enough amount of information denial. ECM would decrease sensor range for targeting 'Mechs, and obtaining locks on ECM protected 'Mechs should take a bit longer (perhaps increase the closer you get to the signal of disruption) but not be impossible, and Beagle should negate that penalty.

So, by itself, Beagle can detect 'Mechs from behind cover, or detect ambushes, and gather pertinent information on enemies like weakly defended ammunition in legs, etc. If ECM is present, it can negate lock on penalty.

By itself, ECM can obscure target data from enemy sensors, decrease enemy sensor detection, and increase lock on times (but not counter them completely). If Beagle is present, ECM provides protection against its additional sensor detection and ability to gain more detailed information.

Like Khobai mentioned, complete sensor defeat should not come from ECM, it should come from either Stealth Armor or Null Signature System - both of which come at a high cost not only in C-bills, but in critical slot requirements and heat generation.

With the new player level idea being thrown around with modules for weapons, Beagle and ECM could have their effect enhanced by module slots - Beagle could have consumable remote probes like Khobai mentioned (it had this ability in Tactical Operations, an advanced Battletech ruleset), and ECM could gain Ghost Target mode, which would generate false sensor hits on enemy radar.

Get rid of all the extra counters to ECM since it would just be a debuff rather than an entire counter to so much.

Edited by DocBach, 15 January 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Xipe Totec]

I run Atlai (and I'm much better in them then my other mechs), and the scout model DDC shows a huge disparity in W/L ratio.

Normal Atlas rings in at one, RS at one and a half, and the DDC at thee. I have them all mastered and use all three as a brawling style.

My suspicion is that the DDC sometimes (like one match in four or five) tosses up a gift kill where someone more or less stumbles into range or otherwise gets cornered and badly mauled or killed.

I'd be interested to see if other players who run multiple mechs also see the same ECM varient win inflation.

[Jimmy Page]

You guys seriously think ECM is OP with all the counters?? Really?? You don't even need ECM actually. LRM builds are for new players getting their footing. If you use cover and play smart missiles never touch you anyway. Let those fancy boats run out of ammo or just run up inside 80m. Problem solved.

[GrandLocomon]

Let's just make BAP counter ALL ECM within 150m and I would be so happy


OR here's a good one - premades are limited to 1 ECM. No more pure ECM premades; seen way too many lately.

Edited by GrandLocomon, 16 January 2014 - 01:56 AM.

[Lykaon]

Steel Claws, on 15 January 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Why. There are what, five mechs that can load ECM out of how many.... BAP, tag, or a PPC hit disables ECM. ECM module health was aleady reduced at least once.

As someone who frequently run a raven 3L I can tell you that I still get streak boated to death by everyone smart enough to load BAP. I still get LRMs shot at me by anyone smart enough to use tag. Other than that what use is it really? If your looking for triangles instead of looking at mechs than you deserve to be snuck up on. If you can't notice that low signal icon thats there then who's fault is that. ECM is barely worth taking as it is now. There is no need to nerf it completely into the ground.

I might also point out that none of the mechs that people concider the "Meta elite" mechs mount ECM. The only one hard to kill is the DDC and it is no tougher to kill than any other Atlas.

If this is what you think you are doing it wrong.

Having 5 mechs that can use an ECM is of no concern as long as they are used (and they are) It's not as if before we launch into a match we get our choice of mech randomized.We pick our rides and players do pick ECM mechs frequently enough that most of my games ECM is a factor.

ECM with reduced hitpoints is not what I call a big effect in the grand scheme of MWO.Most of the ECM mechs are small evasive targets that if their side torso is breached it is also very likely they are dead on the next hit.Seriously how many times has your Raven 3L been alive and well with a disabled ECM on board?


Now here is the reality of all of those "counters".

BAP has a monkey version of an ECM feature.ECM counters ECM at 180m BAP gets 150m.ECM is a superior counter to ECM because of this.

PPC vs ECM? Well first you need to see the ECM to hit it.The ECM doesn't require line of sight to provide it's bubble of awesome to every friendly mech within 180m of it.If the enemy is hitting you with PPCs frequently enough to actually cause a loss in ECM cover long enough to make a difference you are doing it wrong.Most of the time a lucky shot may land (4 out of 5 ECM mechs are fast and small) and interupt ECM cover for 4 seconds.

Second ONE,LRM mech locates a target,TWO LRM mech starts to lock,THREE LRM mech has fired,FOUR LRMS are in flight Five ECM is back on line SIX LRMs miss.

Actual effectivness of PPC as a real counter is 100% dependent on a PPC hitting an ECM mech every 3.5-4 seconds so not likely to do much of anything.

As for hard to kill? Evasion is superior to absorbtion. any of the light mechs that use ECM are,if piloted well are very difficult to kill.
The Atlas DDC is actually the weakest ECM support platform because of this.I would never count on a DDC as my primary ECM support PPCs and TAG can actually hit it often enough to be a concern.

TAG? uses a weapon hardpoint,must be aimed and aim must be maintained requiring LOS.A TAG projects a visable beam that is literaly a laser pointer indicating you possition.If you have a TAG target you are also a viable target to be hit by counterfire.Meanwhile ECM needs no LOS and even if it is TAG'd the ECM is still providing it's benifits to any friendly within 180m that is not also TAG'd. Not what I call a counter since the ECM still provides it's functions to others even if the ECM is taged.Also,TAGing a small mech traversing through cover at 150+ kph is no easy task generaly all we get is a momentary interupt in ECM function not all that useful for doing anything.

Do you want to know what use ECM is?

ECM surpasses AMS as an anti missile system. and it works for all friendlies within 180m.In organized play this translates directly in to free tonnage since no one is loading an AMS and one ECM covers everyone.1.5 x 11 = 16.5 tons freed up.That's alot of extra ammo/heatsinks/armor etc.

ECM surpasses advanced sensor modules as a means of attaining superior relative sensor ranges.This makes the GXP and millions of C-bills spent on these modules a total waste if ECM is in use.

ECM removes non supported LRM fire from the game.LRMs require so much tactical and strategic support they are bearly worth taking if the enemy knows what it's doing.Frequently an LRM mech is forced to provide it's own TAG support.This exposes the fire support mech to direct attack by the enemy.With the slowest projectile speed in the game an LRM carrier is very vulnerable if forced to trade shots with a direct fire mech like an AC equiped mech.

ECM even when effected by a BAP has the effect of reducing Streak missiles to nearly half their range.ECM Jams streaks no lock can occur if an ECM is within 180m range.BAP counters ECM at 150m thus 150m is the new range available to streaks significantly lower than 270m a streak missile's actual range.

ECM removes access to critical data on ECM sheilded targets there is no way of determining specific data on a target like variant/damage values/weapon loadout/pilot name/Letter designation.

A crafty team will use multiples of the same chassis using identical paint jobs making determining them apart nearly impossible if they manuver well the enemy will not know which target is which or even how many are present.This is obviously a powerful strategic advantage.

You may be looking for mechs out at 1200m but your naked eye and rez of your monitor have limits.A flash contact on the HUD will passivley inform you of approching mechs.Intently scanning the distance for possible movement will likely get you alpha struck by a 30 point hit before you even determined the mech was a mech.

Also do not underestimate the value of the targeting box around the enemy as an aim enhancing mechanic.The guys without ECM show up those with don't this is a survival enhancer.

Survival enhancement is a force multiplyer.

Learn how ECM can be used and you will see it's a great deal more than a device that makes triangles impossible to find.Trust me I have over 29 hours logged on the 3L another 5 on a spider 5D and 22 hours with a DDC.That's alot of ECM time under my belt.

Edited by Lykaon, 16 January 2014 - 02:52 AM.

[Lykaon]

Prezimonto, on 15 January 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

I think they justify it because it's "special" equipment that only a few mechs can have, unfortunately due to it's completely over inflated value all that serves to do is make non-ECM variants of those mechs largely obsolete.

Actually the opposite is what happened.Internal testing allowed for any mech to equip an ECM.This testing determined ECM was far to potent to allow every mech access to it so it was then altered to the specific chassis variants we have now (with spider 5d added later)

Technicaly this was the first ECM nerf but since it happened before we got our grubby little mits on it I never count it.

[Lykaon]

Steel Claws, on 15 January 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

How about arty and air strikes. Advanced zoom, target decay, Coolant flush and a few others that take ZERO tons and do far more. ECM is weak and impotent to most people but some people seem to think its a big deal - I don't. It really does very little for the tonnage.

Apple this is an orange please note the differences.

Artillery strike/Air strike one use requires line of sight to target area must be aimed to effect desired target area costs GXP to upgrade with accuracy modules cost 6million? to buy takes up one of the few module slots.

Advanced zoom also GXP high C-bill cost module slot used requires the pilot to actual activate it unlike ECM that just works like magic.AND advanced zoom is augmented by ECM cover allowing a sniper to avoid passive detection.

Target decay like all the other modules plus,what target? can't get a lock to use this module if ECM is in play so really bad example with this one.

Coolant flush is a module slot GXP c-bills etc one use only and I feel was a poor choice to be added to this game to bigin with so it's in the bucket with ECM as far as I'm concerned.

What other modules would you like to compare?

360 target retention of course the usual downsides GXP unlock high C-bill cost uses a slot when you may only have one or two.And this allows you to retain a target lock for brief period in a 360 degree arc.Again,what targets exactally ECM prevents locking a target.

Um...oh UAV one that actually has a good functional purpose when exposed to ECM. Other than one shot C-bill gobbling and GXP whoring the UAV works great until someone simply looks up and shoots it down.

Oh I know this one is great because some people actually believe the propaganda that advanced sensor range modules are an ECM 'countermeasure".

The inter relations between ECM and advanced sensor modules is hilarious because the ECM does the advanced sensor range module's job better than it does when they interact.

Normal sensors = 800m
Advanced sensor range = 1000m that's +200m not to shabby

But what if one side has advanced sensor modules and the other side has an ECM?

Normal sensor range is reduced to 200 from 800
Advanced sensor module is reduced to 250 from 1000
The ECM mech still has 800m sensor range granting it a 550m range advantage with sensors at a cost of 0 GXP and no module slot used.

Remember what advanced sensor range compared to standard sensors gave you? 200m more sensor range ECM will get you 550m so what is a counter for what here?

If you actually examine effectivness of modules vs ECM you will find very little evidence to support the claim that the modules somehow do more than a 1.5 ton stealth field generating anti missile ubrella for everyone information denial field generator that functions passively with no attention need be paid to it.

Edited by Lykaon, 16 January 2014 - 03:40 AM.

[Lykaon]

Jimmy Page, on 16 January 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

You guys seriously think ECM is OP with all the counters?? Really?? You don't even need ECM actually. LRM builds are for new players getting their footing. If you use cover and play smart missiles never touch you anyway. Let those fancy boats run out of ammo or just run up inside 80m. Problem solved.

Read my previous postings most of your "counters" are only really reducing the effects of ECM not actually countering it.LRMs are bearly the tip of the iceberg of what ECM does.If you think ECM only effects lock on missiles you are unaware of it's effects or if you pilot an ECM mech are doing it wrong.

Edited by Lykaon, 16 January 2014 - 03:37 AM.

[990Dreams]

colsan, on 15 January 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

It's supposed to counter BAP, Artemis, etc; not prevent lock-ons. Also, reducing detection range was fine, in the real Mechwarrior games, because it only decreased it to ~450m, and streaks still worked against it. 200m, with a 180m bubble where you can't use missiles, is just insane.

It's not supposed to counter TAG, either; even if you somehow manage to generate a field that interferes with lasers, it should be visible (lasers = light).

Again, this is some sort of alternate universe where the laws of physics are radically different. Don't even get me started on the heat issue.

Okay TAG should be countered. TAG just tells the targeting computer where to track-and-hack radio signals that would normally be too far out to spot. As for counter missiles, all ECM is radio noise. This means 2 things:

• Inside the radio noise range it is [almost] impossible to transmit signals (either frequency jump or use a more powerful broadcast) or use anything requiring radio (so all missiles would have... issues)
  
• An ECM equipped unit should stand out like a cat's eye under a light at night on radar.
  
• Due to it being the most powerful source of radio noise all the missiles could lock on to the ECM unit since it would be the easiest thing to see

Thing is, all the targeting computer does is track the location of the designated unit (allies are designated over short ranged broadcast) and hack it's computer and/or radio frequency to get data on it's health, weapons, etc. (the most practical way would be to hack the information it is broadcasting to its allies). Like I said, TAG could do any of these things:

• Laser guided missiles, in which case it shouldn't get targeting data
  
• Boosting radio frequency data over a laser beam (it's possible but radically hard)
  
• Identify the location of the enemy and tell the targeting computer to tune into standard broadcasting frequencies the enemies would use and compensate for Doppler (once again this is a wild guess, but slightly more possible than the 2nd one)

[Khobai]

Quote

You guys seriously think ECM is OP with all the counters?? Really??

Absolutely. It does way too much for 1.5 tons. And you shouldnt have to counter it, it just simply shouldnt give stealth in the first place.

[wanderer]

ECM is positively lethal in PUG play.

PUGs tend to move towards red triangles. ECM gets rid of the presence of a pack of 'Mechs, even PUG players tend to pack in around it for protection, so even one ECM-equipped design often means it has three or more friends coming along to make your life miserable. I've watched in spectator mode as a group under ECM two-shotted me (first salvo to the back, second one I got turned around just in time to eyeball them at about 500m out before being cored), then proceeded to backshot-sniped the other three members of my lance one at a time, without a single one of them figuring out WTF was happening despite me typing "ECM GROUP BEHIND YOU" in chat repeatedly.

ECM is portable cover. For the weight, it's magnificently useful.

[oldradagast]

Morsule, on 15 January 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Why is ECM over powered?

Its OP because the floating Mech Triangle is Over Powered. Without really looking at the environment and looking for a mech all you do is look for triangles. This behavior makes the ECM over powered for any mech with ECM or under the cover of has no floating triangle pointing at it going look what's here! Of course getting sniped a few times by ECM snipers helps to change the behavior.

Changing the triangle would greatly change the impact of ECM - teach players different behavior. How to do this? Removing them completely would probably make sniping extremely over powered. Yet, sniping w/o ECM is not as effective.

Someone else has probably already noted this but did not find it. If so a link o the conversation would be appreciated.

In support for items as mentioned elsewhere hard points need to have slot & tonnage limits. From all I recall of the rpg light mechs - like the spider's arm is not meant to be able to with stand the damage it would withstand every time an ac/2 or higher fired off. Not to mention the weight. Even its torso. There were a few designed like the hunchback to carry ballistic weapons beyond what that weight class would normally support. This should be in the mech design.

Cheers

While ECM is overpowered, removing triangles completely is a very bad idea. Indirect fire weapons would basically be worthless since you literally would be unable to see the target or have any clue where to aim to hold locks. It would also become impossible to tell friend from foe (unless they are actively shooting at you) since you're not going to memorize all the mechs on your team and then hold Q down the whole match to see their names floating above their heads. Anyone else remember the games about a year ago with the HUD bug where you had no HUD? Yeah, no floating triangles either, and good luck in those games telling friend from foe until they shot you.

While ECM is overpowered, the triangle issue is just folks not paying attention. Mechs can still shoot you from far enough away that you may not see a triangle, so people need to learn to pay attention to movement vs. just looking for triangles.

[colsan]

Steel Claws, on 15 January 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would love to see any data that you have that indicates 25% of mechs used are ECM equipped because I see a LOT of drops were there are none or one or two at most.

Then we are playing different games; I'm getting run down by ECM-loaded wolfpacks every other match, and can't remember the last time I had a round with no ECM mechs at all. One, earlier in the week, had no ECM on my team; several on the other team, though.

ECM is overpowered because it counters the only weapons that are truly effective at fighting light mechs, given the idiotic mechanics and bugs/lag/hacks/what-have-you, as well as allowing a whole lance of heavy and assault mechs to sneak up behind you.

It does way more than it ever did in any previous MW or BT game, and the associated equipment, TAG, BAP, etc, has been nerfed to do far less.

[Almond Brown]

colsan, on 15 January 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I'll tell you what; let's stand 50 feet apart, me with a gun, and you with a stick, and I'll quit shooting at you once you knock the gun out of my hand with the stick. Your idea of balance....

I'll tell you what. How about we both stand 50m apart and you can have your ECM and 1 weapon, and I'll forgo the ECM and take a pair of AC20's. Let's see who loses what. (boggles)

Edited by Almond Brown, 16 January 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[colsan]

DavidHurricane, on 16 January 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Okay TAG should be countered. TAG just tells the targeting computer where to track-and-hack radio signals that would normally be too far out to spot.

No, TAG is a laser reflecting off of the enemy mech that the missile homes in on; there is no field you can generate that will block it.

DavidHurricane, on 16 January 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

As for counter missiles, all ECM is radio noise. This means 2 things:

• Inside the radio noise range it is [almost] impossible to transmit signals (either frequency jump or use a more powerful broadcast) or use anything requiring radio (so all missiles would have... issues)
  
• An ECM equipped unit should stand out like a cat's eye under a light at night on radar.
  
• Due to it being the most powerful source of radio noise all the missiles could lock on to the ECM unit since it would be the easiest thing to see

Yep, they're called HARMs, anti-radiation missiles, we've had them since the 1950s.

DavidHurricane, on 16 January 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Thing is, all the targeting computer does is track the location of the designated unit (allies are designated over short ranged broadcast) and hack it's computer and/or radio frequency to get data on it's health, weapons, etc. (the most practical way would be to hack the information it is broadcasting to its allies).

But that's no longer ECM, is it? That's information warfare.

DavidHurricane, on 16 January 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Like I said, TAG could do any of these things:

• Laser guided missiles, in which case it shouldn't get targeting data
  
• Boosting radio frequency data over a laser beam (it's possible but radically hard)
  
• Identify the location of the enemy and tell the targeting computer to tune into standard broadcasting frequencies the enemies would use and compensate for Doppler (once again this is a wild guess, but slightly more possible than the 2nd one)

The first of those is the proper function; I'm not asking these guys for any great feats of programming, though, so let's forgive the targeting information part. The others would be, as you say, radically different systems.

Ultimately, however, the issue is balance; ECM is wildly, insanely unbalanced, to the extent that the 5 of the 111 mechs that can mount it are played much more often than simple chance can explain.

[colsan]

Almond Brown, on 16 January 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

I'll tell you what. How about we both stand 50m apart and you can have your ECM and 1 weapon, and I'll forgo the ECM and take a pair of AC20's. Let's see who loses what. (boggles)

OK:

Cicada 3M, ECM, Gauss + 2 tons ammo, 300XL engine.

Your Jager is meat.

[stjobe]

Xipe Totec, on 16 January 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

I run Atlai (and I'm much better in them then my other mechs), and the scout model DDC shows a huge disparity in W/L ratio.

Normal Atlas rings in at one, RS at one and a half, and the DDC at thee. I have them all mastered and use all three as a brawling style.

My suspicion is that the DDC sometimes (like one match in four or five) tosses up a gift kill where someone more or less stumbles into range or otherwise gets cornered and badly mauled or killed.

I'd be interested to see if other players who run multiple mechs also see the same ECM varient win inflation.

On the other side of the weight scale, my Commandos show the same trend: The 2D has a way higher WLR and KDR than the other four - so much so I stopped playing it shortly after ECM was introduced because it became such a cake-walk. I drop in it once every other month or so to check if it's still OP, and it's sporting a whopping 6.0 KDR since the new stats were introduced. 6.0 KDR in a Commando? WTF?

So yes, I'm most certainly on the "ECM is OP" side of the argument.

Edit: For reference, my other Commandos have a KDR of around 1.5 or so.

Edited by stjobe, 16 January 2014 - 10:24 AM.