172 replies to this topic

[Theodor Kling]

colsan, on 15 January 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

This is just a symptom of the fact that ECM in this game works nothing like it does in previous MW games, TT Battletech, or real life.

In a way it does Because BT ECM disrupts C3 networks, which are somehow build into every mech here without taking weight or space.. ok, you win. It IS magic:(

[Khobai]

I would be 100% okay with ECM disrupting sensor networks and cutting you off from shared sensor information. I dont know why PGI ever removed that. Even if it was too powerful for the base ECM, they shouldve made it a module, that expanded the capabilities of the ECM.

The thing thats always made ECM unbalanced is the super stealth bubble. Only NSS should grant that level of stealth, and only for your own mech, not your whole team. Passive sensor mode should also give a lesser degree of stealth for mechs that cant use NSS. And much later on in the timeline, in the late 3050s/early 3060s, we have stealth armor (but PGI doesnt have to stick to the canon timeline; they didnt with Angel ECM).

Even if you dont believe ECM is overpowered, you cant really deny that Information warfare is extremely boring because it revolves around one piece of tech that also happens to be its own best counter.

Edited by Khobai, 16 January 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[DocBach]

Theodor Kling, on 16 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

In a way it does Because BT ECM disrupts C3 networks, which are somehow build into every mech here without taking weight or space.. ok, you win. It IS magic:(

We don't have C3 on our 'Mechs at all. Tech Manual states all 'Mechs can share targeting information and sensor data without C3; right now we can only share data on one target we have selected, even if our sensors had four targets on them. C3 would be more akin to sharing all sensor data rather than just the one 'Mech targeted.

C3 also is suppose to increase the accuracy of users in the network by having a spotter close to the target; there isn't really a way to have that effect in MWO unless there were penalties to convergeance/convergeance time that were dependent on range.

[Khobai]

C3 is something they should add though. Any advantage they give IS that they dont also give to clans is that much less they have to nerf clans by.

[DocBach]

They would need to make C3 have some pretty cool benefits as it requires a master system that weighs 5 tons to use. Also would need lobbies and the like first so you could set up networks in Lances.

[WVAnonymous]

Roadbeer, on 15 January 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Wow, did we suddenly go back in time to April?
This thread is NEW and EXCITING

I had scrolled past the name of this poster, read it, and thought "Is this a Roadbeer post"?

On the thread topic, the ability to mount ECM would be the only thing that would voluntarily put me in a Locust...

∴ ECM is OP!

[KharnZor]

colsan, on 15 January 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

HAHAHAHAHA! Go on, pull the other one, it's got bells on!

But they do. A clue, search Ebay for one.
as for everything else ecm

[DocBach]

I would say that the points made against ECM in this thread are pretty well articulated, and in fact the counter arguments of "L2P and use Mk 1 eyeballs" are the ones lacking substance.

[Khobai]

Quote

I would say that the points made against ECM in this thread are pretty well articulated, and in fact the counter arguments of "L2P and use Mk 1 eyeballs" are the ones lacking substance.

IMO the fact you can physically see mechs with your eyes before you detect them on sensors is one of the biggest flaws of the game. Enemy mechs should be 100% invisible until detected on sensors. That way teams that dont scout cant even see the enemies that are shooting at them in order to shoot back. It would make scouting and information warfare absolutely essential parts of the game.

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 16 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

I would say that the points made against ECM in this thread are pretty well articulated, and in fact the counter arguments of "L2P and use Mk 1 eyeballs" are the ones lacking substance.

Are you telling me that you cannot see mechs at 500m+ and shoot them with energy and ballistic weapons, and unaided by advanced zoom at that?

Edited by Mystere, 16 January 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[DocBach]

Mystere, on 16 January 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Are you telling me that you cannot see mechs at 500m+ and shoot them with energy and ballistic weapons, and unaided by advanced zoom at that?

Yeah, that must be my problem with hard counters which relegate all but that playstyle as being disadvantaged in a system that totes role warfare making any playstyle viable.

"It doesn't affect me or my preferred playstyle, therefore you must just be bad and the system is fine!"

Edited by DocBach, 16 January 2014 - 05:44 PM.

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 16 January 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Yeah, that must be my problem with hard counters which relegate all but that playstyle as being disadvantaged in a system that totes role warfare making any playstyle viable.

"It doesn't affect me or my preferred playstyle, therefore you must just be bad and the system is fine!"

What other things other than LRMs, SSRMs, and apparently poor eyesight are affected by ECM? And disregarding the eyesight issue, just what percentage of playstyles are actually affected? And of those playstyles affected, is there absolutely nothing that can help mitigate their inability to handle ECM?

Edited by Mystere, 16 January 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What other things other than LRMs, SSRMs, and apparently poor eyesight are affected by ECM?

That alone is enough of a reason to change ECM. Missiles are currently losing out to Autocannons and PPCs and ECM part of the reason why.

[DocBach]

Lyakon has spelled out the effects and implecations of ECM, especially in public games where players aren't sharing voice communications.

The havoc of denying all information is much farther reaching than stopping just LRM's and Streaks, though that right there means 1/3 of weapon systems in the game are blocked by ECM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 16 January 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

That alone is enough of a reason to change ECM. Missiles are currently losing out to Autocannons and PPCs and ECM part of the reason why.

That's almost like saying anything carrying nothing but small lasers is currently losing out to anything else that uses weapons that have a longer range and bigger punch. And the same can also be said about locusts.

In any case, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

DocBach, on 16 January 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

Lyakon has spelled out the effects and implecations of ECM, especially in public games where players aren't sharing voice communications.

The havoc of denying all information is much farther reaching than stopping just LRM's and Streaks, though that right there means 1/3 of weapon systems in the game are blocked by ECM.

Are SRMs affected by ECM too?

Edited by Mystere, 16 January 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[DocBach]

Why do you ignore the fact that ECM has way farther effects on the outcome of a game then you will admit and focus on generalizations I make in a post? I rounded up with the 1/3 figure because out of the 8 missile systems in the game 5 of them are blocked by ECM, and missiles are one of three weapon types.

That doesn't invalidate the fact that ECM has way too much function for its size and requires no skill or sacrifice to use beyond selecting an ECM capable 'Mech and installing it.

[DodgerH2O]

Mystere, on 15 January 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

My original set of Mark 1 eyeballs seems to work just fine against mechs under ECM cover.

Unfortunately there are those of us out there who really need those red triangles due to our Mark 1 eyeballs being defective and/or using less impressive video cards/monitors.

I seriously cannot on most maps see enemy mechs past oh... 800m or so without moving within 6 inches of my screen and squinting. I may be rare but I'm probably not the only one. This is obviously changed by maps like Alpine or when a mech silhouettes itself, but the generic green paintjob against standard terrain is enough to ruin my pattern recognition on many maps.

[Steel Claws]

Mystere, on 16 January 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

In any case, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Are SRMs affected by ECM too?

Yeah, the vocal minority have tended at every point to try to inflate what ever they think the issue is and have exagerated numbers slightly. While there are some points that might be valid they are apparently working as PGI intends them to work. That in a nut shell is that. I disagree with the fact that LRMs can be fired without line of sight and think the arch is too great and are too slow but I don't start a thread every month trying to change it because I realize that they aren't going to and I'm not going to waste my time and effort on it.

Basically though I agree with you and don't see the problem and like ECM as is despite my only driving an ECM equipped mech about 3% of the time and driving mechs with LRMs and/or SSRMs about 15% of the time.

[DocBach]

Steel Claws, on 16 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Yeah, the vocal minority have tended at every point to try to inflate what ever they think the issue is and have exagerated numbers slightly. While there are some points that might be valid they are apparently working as PGI intends them to work. That in a nut shell is that. I disagree with the fact that LRMs can be fired without line of sight and think the arch is too great and are too slow but I don't start a thread every month trying to change it because I realize that they aren't going to and I'm not going to waste my time and effort on it.

Basically though I agree with you and don't see the problem and like ECM as is despite my only driving an ECM equipped mech about 3% of the time and driving mechs with LRMs and/or SSRMs about 15% of the time.

You think LRM's are overpowered? Learn to play, everything is fine and completely well balanced -- sounds like you need to use the old mark 1 cover and concealment, and quit posting here - we shouldn't have discussions about balance in the game balance forum because its a waste of time and effort.

Edited by DocBach, 16 January 2014 - 07:50 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Did I say I thought LRMs were over powered - no I did not. I don't like the way they were implemented but I do think they are balanced. Mighty touchy aren't you.

Cry and scream all you want. The last 15 or 20 ECM is too powerful threads didn't get it changed so I doubt another will either. You have little substance to your arguments other than you don't like the way it works. You can't prove that it's too powerful - that's just your opinion. That's a shame really but be that as it may. On a side note I'd love to see ECM done as it was in MW4 and with more mechs able to load it - but that isn't happening either.

Edited by Steel Claws, 16 January 2014 - 08:27 PM.